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The Life and Adventures of Sir Edelbert Spore
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Author:  conmor [ Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Life and Adventures of Sir Edelbert Spore

So the Growing Golems, 7 can be popped and buffed with four thirds of a turns juice, they start out slightly weaker than normal infantry, but within 3 turns they are the equivalent of advanced infantry. They then presumably keep on getting stronger (though i guess at a slower rate after what, 5? 10 turns? They require both dirtamancy and flower power to make, but as plants they can presumably root for their upkeep in a farm (depending on the seed given to them, they might actually be a net gain in upkeep as mobile farms/cheap defenders. Though fruit seeds might give lesser defensive bonuses than oak or other hardwoods.

The utility of these things cannot be understated, they can be popped maybe 10 a turn (with tower bonus and maybe a level more juice), you have to allow for 10 or so turns lag, and then you have 10 knights being generated every turn. I think it is not unreasonable that at 100 turns old they become knight class heavies, and past that they gain a slight amount of xp (a bit more than training xp if planted in a good farm, though they could also be either part of the farm itself or tend to the farm) per turn instead of gaining free templates.

Seriously, after you conquer a city or repel an enemies' charge, they might wait a few turns to gather more numbers and attack again, by that point you have 30-100 normal to above average infantry in addition to what your cities are popping. You can even keep on making more during times of peace since they need time to grow anyway and have a neutral or positive upkeep. The small addition to a cities garrison might not seem like much, but an extra 200 or so really cheap knights in every city of an average 8 city side would take Edelbert about 200 turns. And again, they could be theoretically free or have a positive upkeep if done with that in mind.

From the battle of gobwin knob 2.0 we know that the average lightly defended capital has around 500-600 infantry, a warlord, and 2 special heavies guarding it (there were 17 by 21 infantry left prisoner). That seems like a lot for a lightly defended city, but it used to be the capital. Those are also basic infantry and only one warlord.

Meh, point being cheap knight heavies wreck shit.

Author:  Salvage [ Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Life and Adventures of Sir Edelbert Spore

@ conmor - Cheap Knight Heavies would wreck shit.These units are quite valuable and the new golem work like this.

The basic type are Soilders. They are Infantry golem. These can be popped about a stack per casting, give or take two-ish. They are cheap upkeep, otherwise not very different from regular infantry.

With a Flower Power spell, Edelbert triggered a three turn growth transformation into Samurai Soildiers. First turn was the most dramatic; armor, better weapons, a little smarter. Turn 2 was the extra move; basically they grew plant-muscles which improved their speed. Turn three would have been another small boost in armor. Process ends with very cheap Elite Infantry, not quite Knights.

I cannot see why there could not be another spell that furthur enhances them to Knights or even Heavies. Each stage would require a new spell and time, maybe Dirtamancy instead of Flower Power for the Heavies. This would be interesting but the cost in Juice and time, it may be better to just make a Heavy Golem outright.

Just to say it out loud; usually this would take two casters to make. There are not a lot of FP and Dirtamancy casters out there. Although there should be :)

Your point about different plants was spot on. Any seed or nut can be used, but they all gain slightly different results. A tomato soildier would not get the thick wooden armor that tree soildiers get. A Flower Soildier might be very fast though compared to the others.

Oh, I am about 1/3 done with the full length edit/Retcon. I will let you know when it is done and I post it all.

Author:  conmor [ Tue Feb 28, 2017 5:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Life and Adventures of Sir Edelbert Spore

I thought the growth would continue as the tree grows.

Author:  thaco4 [ Wed Mar 01, 2017 2:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Life and Adventures of Sir Edelbert Spore

I imagine that using seed of the ironwood tree would produce even better armour. Seeds of psychedelic plants on the golems would create a foolmacy special after 3 turns.... It would be interesting to see the different golems that could be created by using tthe different plants of Sir Spore's garden. I can see stacks of the golems with a different seed type planted into each. Creating a stack of golems with an incredible variety of uses. I like the new developments and play on the canon rules I see here. Have schmuckers....

Author:  conmor [ Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Life and Adventures of Sir Edelbert Spore

One of the things that edelbert should really be focusing on, is combining flower power and weirdomancy to create a plant unit that can cover some of the workload for him. Some Poison pollen plants scattered in a wide ring around his hex (a turn or two's move away) that could devastate an army if they fail their spot/knowledge nature roll. Some poppies in a ring around the mountains and covering the one passable hex with the classic wizard of oz sleep effect would be nice. Or he could do dollamancy+weirdomancy to create a tool that gives people limited dollamancy or weirdomancy, just enough to make some magic tools (including more of the initial magic item) and other magic items that give limited dirtamancy. And when i say limited, please understand i mean limited, like the initial magic item it a weirdomancy enhanced dollamancy item that gives people some weirdomancy enhanced fabrication (or they are given to the fabricators so they can use limited dollamancy) and the other magic item it can be used to make (other than itself) are along the lines of like a shovel that gives a unit the ability to tunnel like a dirtamancer (using either their own juice or a rechargeable stockpile of juice (auto recharge)).

Or other stuff might of the requirement of requiring the user to expend juice, but there are plenty of non caster units that use juice like Mother or possibly the Twoll. It would allow them to do stuff other than hippymancy when they dont need to, or especially since Edelbert looks to be founding a side allied to pokedaemons, it would allow the less powerful/useful daemons to help the side by mining or farming or whatever their specific tool is enchanted to do.

Trying to think of how to balance this, otherwise edelbert could just a couple tools of every type of discipline and use them to do shenanigens, im thinking that the items have to attune to a discipline of magic. Like Edelbert makes some weirdomancy/other crystals and puts them in the workshop and what they do is align the unfinished tools to whatever the particular crystal is. Thus, they could only make tools that give the disciplines they already have.

Do Pokedaemons use juice? In game pokemon have PP, which i guess would function along those lines.

So in example, the fabricators are all equipped with the weird-doll item, they make a blank, align it to say flower power, then give it to a polywhirl parody pokedaemon, and now that unit can spend its turns farming in the orchard.

Other than that, remember that the more effort that is put into a golem before the spell is cast, the less juice it requires and the better the golem you get. And Edelbert has some fabricating mushroom people, he could expand the workshop or make the workshop give a higher bonus (maxing out the bonus the workshop gives should be his first priority, expanding it so that other people can work alongside him a close second) and then have the fabricators make the body of the golem before he comes around, puts some finishing touches on, and casts the spell. It would improve production by a good bit.

One of the serious questions i have is, why hasnt he claimed the capital yet, so far he has surrendered a hundred turns of schmuckers (the theoretical formula is city level squared times 100 or maybe 1000). He could've claimed it, upgraded it straight to 3 or 4, maybe even 5, and have 250k schmuckers extra by now, minus whatever the upgrade cost is. It would more than cover upkeep for everyone, with all the extra being funneled into cycling the Mushrooms at a greater rank. Remember, they don't have to ally as soon as the city gets claimed, they could be cycling until edelbert's first war when he needs the mass produced special mushroom people. Heck, a knight could stay independent and become the chief of a new tribe of mushroom people. He could then keep cycling that one while enjoying the benefits of dozens of mothers and hundreds of fabricators.

Not to mention, he would get the garrisoned bonus to upkeep reduction for everyone. It would make everything including the cycling even easier.

Author:  dinobobicus [ Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Life and Adventures of Sir Edelbert Spore

conmor wrote:
One of the serious questions i have is, why hasnt he claimed the capital yet, so far he has surrendered a hundred turns of schmuckers (the theoretical formula is city level squared times 100 or maybe 1000). He could've claimed it, upgraded it straight to 3 or 4, maybe even 5, and have 250k schmuckers extra by now, minus whatever the upgrade cost is. It would more than cover upkeep for everyone, with all the extra being funneled into cycling the Mushrooms at a greater rank. Remember, they don't have to ally as soon as the city gets claimed, they could be cycling until edelbert's first war when he needs the mass produced special mushroom people. Heck, a knight could stay independent and become the chief of a new tribe of mushroom people. He could then keep cycling that one while enjoying the benefits of dozens of mothers and hundreds of fabricators.

Not to mention, he would get the garrisoned bonus to upkeep reduction for everyone. It would make everything including the cycling even easier.

Eddie is in this for the long haul. He has already been a barbarian for longer than some entire sides last. He wants to be well prepared and for everything to be perfect. He's not hurting for upkeep, his home is already well defended, he is in no rush, and he isn't greedy for the increase in units or resources. He has no reason to start the side now, but takes comfort in knowing that he will someday. He just wants to quietly protect what he has and learn new things. This is not going to be an ambitious ruler who is going to conquer the world, but it would be a nice place to live.

Author:  conmor [ Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Life and Adventures of Sir Edelbert Spore

hundreds of the mushroom peoples should still be being born and disbanding every day

Author:  Salvage [ Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Life and Adventures of Sir Edelbert Spore

I am having severe writer's block. I have also reorganized Volume 10 and 11,which slowed things even further. These are probably the most important installments and they must be up to snuff before I release them. I am working on it though.

Full edit is going slowly. I just cannot seem to buckle down on it. Only done through 4.

@thaco4 - Good call on the Ironwood seeds

@dinobobicus - Spot on. Edelbert also feels inadequate for the position. He is ashamed at how he crumpled against Silas.

@conmor - Edelbert is still experimenting while he prepares. Actually, that is why it is taking so long. Weirdomancy costs him quite a bit of Juice, he is still weak at the discipline, remember he gained it technically so has very limited knowledge.

As to the Toadie, popping new units has a high initial cost which cannot be mitigated by the gardens. Upkeep is different than the cost to buy a new unit. They are already spending exorbitant amounts to pop the increased numbers they are popping. As well, theer is an assumed maximunm that a tribe can pop each turn. Mother is approaching that max each turn, it is small because her tribe is small.

Daemon do primarily use Juice. Turnip's abilities are limited to times per turn.

The golem are being worked on by both Blue and and Arthur, as well as Edelbert's own Fabrication. He is cranking out a large number of strong units in a relatively short time. As wlel as his usual distractions.

Author:  conmor [ Fri Mar 31, 2017 11:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Life and Adventures of Sir Edelbert Spore

With the good mines and good farms, Mother should be able to keep around a fairly large number of red for free or close to it. That should also increase the number of extra reds they can pop each turn for a cost. The ones popped each turn would spend their turn mining, mitigating some of the cost with gems (mining doesnt reduce upkeep, it produces schmuckers) and they should be able to bite the rest of the cost with the massive shmucker reserves. By the time they maybe lose 50k, it will have been a hundred or so turns wouldnt it? What is the actual chance to pop a special? 1/10 in the first stack, 1/1000 while barbarians, 1/1000000 while sided? Upkeep for a red would be 1-4 and initial popping cost like 10-40?

That estimate means that it would cost 11000-44000 base to have an about 2/3 chance to pop a special?

Does this all sound reasonable?

the mitigating factors are farming and mining, best guess being that 2 good meals makes upkeep 0. I don't know the odds of mining a gem or the average value of a gem. It seems a conservative estimate that average value is 1k and the chance to mind is 500 turns of effort (500 units mining means that on average you find one each turn). Dirtamancers probably have a massive bonus to how many turns of effort they provide, or more usefully, can structure their mines to give a bonus to all units mining. A +1 to all units working in the mine would probably be the result of a hundred or a thousand turns of mining and working on it, which Edelbert has done. MSK tools would probably also give a +1, but those take quite longer because of lots of miners.

Meh, the +1 bonus is theoretical so disregard unless it sounds cool enough to include.

So 500 units mining each turn and they reliably find a 1k gem each turn, They are also all eating from the orchard or getting sustenance another way (plant units are weird), which honestly might just be a couple hours of downtime in the sun for all I know. (Can the orchard provide for 500~ small-tiny units? They have Mother, a Florist, Flower Power capable units (the twoll and the tarantula thing, though their type of flower power may be poison instead of produce), specialty golems like Scissorhands and cwap golems. The Orchard very well might be comparatively insanely high level.

So 500 units are generating 1k of schmuckers each turn while costing no personal upkeep (orchard). This would be enough to pop 20-100 new units each turn, with them adding to the chance of mining a new gem in their one turn. So every 5 or 25 turns they get an extra gem that can also go towards popping a one turn stack, which acts as an extra 20-100 towards gem finding. So once the first extra stack pops, they get an extra gem every 4-24 turns. Math is weird sometimes and i think i did that right.

So, using that math, it is at most 50 turns to get the 1000 units popped and have the 2/3rd chance to pop a special. 2000, 100 turns, would practically guarantee it with a 87.4% chance.

That is with the conservative estimate of 4 upkeep per red and 40 popping cost. They are fairly weak units and the math is supposed to be done without the benefits of a pseudo side backing them.

If the math is done assuming it is just a single 8 stack, then it would take 250 turns to have the 87.4% chance. This would be a single barbarian stack, and they would have almost no chance of surviving that long.

Now that math was done with a 0 sum, not expending any money.

If edelbert decided to spend schmuckers, say 1k a turn, then the speed of popping a new special would double. At the conservative 1/1000 chance, it would take 50 turns to get that almost 90% chance.

Now with the generous 1 upkeep, 10 popping cost, it would take a mere 10 turns to have good odds on popping a special.

If you could tell me the actual numbers, I could work out the math a lot better. This said, 5984 toadies have popped, and thats just the two 8 stacks each turn until Edelbert was captured. Past that, i would assume that they shifted into the faster production, popping 40-200 each turn. If they popped 40 each turn (expending 1,000 schmuckers but otherwise being self sufficient), then 17160 would have popped between Edelbert's capture and the fight between Edelbert and Arthur. If they popped 200 each turn, then 85800 would have cycled through by now (both of those numbers not including the 5984 popped previously to this).

The conservative estimate says that it is a .00000000008739507% that another special has NOT popped by now, meaning a 99.9999999% chance that one has.


Heck, with the conservative estimate, they would even have a 21% chance if it was a 1/100,000 chance to pop a special. A 1/100,000 chance would be impossible for a tribe not in this type of circumstance (a much stronger ally defeating all randomly spawning mobs and secure upkeep provided).

The very lowest number of Toadies popped to date, assuming they for some reason kept the 16 each turn pop rate, is 12,848 toadies cycled through. Thats enough to guarantee a 1/1000 chance and almost guarantee a 1/10,000.

So what gives? Why havent more special toadies popped yet?

Edit: sidenote: why didnt Edelbert tame the Boat Ox? If it is as large as it sounds (viking longboat sized), they it would be invaluble for ferrying troops up and down the river. It would take Edelbert a turn, two tops, to make a lake large enough for the Boat Ox to like in relative comfort when not needed.

It might be a question of rations, but as an Ox, it would mostly eat algae or grass, wouldnt it? Just set it to graze the whole turn, with some occasional flower power every 20 turns or more to make sure the grass is growing well, and it would mostly tend to itself. Free, Heavy, Aquatic mounts are pretty useful; especially since there is at least one river nearby.

Author:  Salvage [ Sun Apr 02, 2017 10:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Life and Adventures of Sir Edelbert Spore

@conmor- On the Boat-Ox you are correct. It would have been an excellent water capable unit for his side. Edelbert has never really tamed anything, despite many opportunities. Lilly was an exception of circumstances. Usually his attitude is more live and let live. If something does not attack him or his, then it is free to live its own way. Maybe this is not the best decision but it is the one he made.

Okay, Toadie time.

I have not run all the math, but here is abot how I see it.

First stack 50/50 to have a special.

After the first stack the chances for a tribe to pop a special if they did not already have one would be 1/100. Since this tribe did have one the chance was more like 1/1000.

Once a second special is aquired, in our case Fabrication Blue, The chance become 1/10000 for a third special to pop. This is , I think, where the chance stabilizes for wild tribes.

A sided tribe goes up one category for being sided, also they can go up to a final 1/50000 chance for a sided tribe with three or more specials.

I see upkeep 3-5 and cost of 20ish for a basic Red. I see 1's and 2's as reserved for Scouts, cheap Golem types and the truly weak. The Toadie are underground capable plant infantry after all.

Mother was popping sixteen new Reds each turn at first, three 8-stacks minus eight knights that she retained. This was at the 1/10000 chance, Mother does not know the numbers like we do.

After Edelbert was taken she popped ten 8-stacks for thirty turns. This is when Lucy the Foolshroom popped. Since Edelbert's return she has been popping 32 per turn.

Yes they are due another special. In fact it is a bit over due. But they were very lucky early on, and they are very lucky in their daily lives, and the titans frown on too much power gaming.

I may have said in the story they were popping more, but after looking at the numbers I cannot justify any more schmucker expenditure by barbarian natural allies. This all adds up to 427,200 schmuckers. Mother is exploiting a system but remember that these people have insticts for survival and frugality.

The Orchard does not help with the Toadie popping process. It does mean Edelbert, Motherm, Blue, the Knights, Vi, and Phil; all of them pay no daily upkeep. Turnip usually roots to pay it's own.

The mine is lucrative but pays out less and less over time. It has been heavily exploited over the last 4500 turns. Mines are not infinite. These costs are high but doable, for a time. This would not be a sustainable plan for more than a few hundred more turns. The cost is just too high and that is with the most favorable circumstance available.

Edelbert is also supporting the Golem army he is constructing. That is getting expensive too. ALthough that is a very temporary expenditure as part of the new plan.

Does that get most of it? Sorry conmor. I like to get all of your questions answered but never feel like I do.

Author:  conmor [ Sun Apr 02, 2017 1:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Life and Adventures of Sir Edelbert Spore

The Orchard didn't help with the popping process, it helped with upkeep. If the Orchard is large enough, and it does seem to be large enough to more than fulfill the main casts upkeep, then why not have a small standing army of knights or red. Just enough that the Orchard can still fully sustain them each turn. Thus, you have a large number of units who are at 0 sum. They then mine, and the proceeds from that go to fund the popping process.

Then, if the upkeep of Edelbert and co. increases through leveling or more allies, the weakest knights or weakest reds are disbanded until it is again a 0 sum with the Orchard providing all upkeep.

As for increasing the amount that the Orchard can produce, cwap golems seem fairly cheap, Blue can make more MSK gardening shears for use in making more Edwins and Freddys, and they have Mother who has no other use for her juice than to improve the Orchard.

Small headcanon coming into play, the peace spells are a hippiemancy thing in general, while creating plant units and growing food is flower power. Mother is equivalent to what? 1/5th of a caster of equal level in terms of juice with a limited set of spells that can't be improved except through leveling? That would still be good enough to improve the Orchard a lot over the more than 500 turns she has been alive.

The small army of toadies then spend their turns mining and the gems then help fund the cycling. The 80/32 extra popped every turn also spend their turn mining to help shore up the numbers.

So for Schmucker retention (elimination of upkeep), the Orchard is very important. It has also been buffed to Hellabad and back with the attention of a novice/adept (i can't remember which at this point) Florist over 1k turns (the other 4k spent doing other stuff) with an artifact that specifically reduces flower power juice cost. In addition, it has MSK gardening golems tending to it with cwap golems fertilizing it and renewing the soil. They also have 2-3 flower power capable units (Lily, Phil, Mother) though Mother would be the only one actually devoted to it (Lily's is poison, Phil's is recreation).

Also if the mine ever runs out, there are 5 High mountains surrounding them and 1 Mountain.

The cost of cycling all the reds is about 500k, that's less than 1k each turn. A few hundred (If the Orchard can sustain that much, which I very much think it can) reds mining each turn can surely more than fulfill that cost with the rest going to cover the golem's upkeep. As a whole, they are still at a positive upkeep since they are building their golem reserves so high, but the Toadies themselves are probs still be at a negative upkeep (gaining shcmuckers each turn).

Stuff that is actually questions:

What is the chance of finding a gem
What is the average value of a gem
What is the size of the standing army of Toadies (the Orchard fulfilling their upkeep)

Author:  conmor [ Sun Apr 02, 2017 6:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Life and Adventures of Sir Edelbert Spore

I have been rereading, and you still have a level 3 golem with a melee insta-croak attack have almost the same upkeep as a high end (level 8+) archon which would have numerous limited magic special including flying.

Canon says that golems cost less than warlords which usually cost less than casters. Low level casters include digdoug (160) and Dove Barstool (150). A warlord would then cost about 100 or so.

Book 0, Olive protesting the creation of more sentient golems as it raised their upkeep to be equivalent to a warlord.
Book 1 and 2, Jillian saying that Stanely wouldnt be able to afford Jack for long as a barbarian because of a caster's high upkeep. Jillian talking about how now that she was funded by charlie, she could afford megalogwiffs and even a caster, implying that casters have a high upkeep compared to heavies like megalogwiffs and warlords.

Also, the pokedaemon battle in chapter 3 is unusual in the way that Glum doesnt receive schmuckers for having defeated Polywhirl expy.

When a wild daemon encounters a preexisting tribe the rituals are more complicated. If the wilder encounters an actual daemon, the two can battle one-on-one with the effects being similar to the wild. The wild daemon would just join the tribe of the other without the winner becoming a Chief.

This seems to be the relevant passage, which would indicate that Glum should receive a gem from the Polywhirl expy.

On a sidenote, the value of the gem (50,000) that weirdish gives twomeut, seems to indicate that you are using the system of loser gives half their money to the victor, but that wouldn't work for tribes, as multiple losses in one turn might cut the tribes reserves from 500,000 to 31,250. It might be better to have the formula be losers level*100 which would fill up the winner's purse a bit and provide a few turns of upkeep. (purse size is level*1000).

If the Level*100 formula is used, then 600 schmuckers would be given to twomeut and 1400 schmuckers would be given to glum (doliwag would gain change at about 8+"midlevel" dolliwhirl indicating level 6 or so =14)

ehh, twomeut might be special circumstances for being a not just one, but two legendary pokemon, as such, the risks and rewards of fighting them are MUCH greater.

Special of the meut would probably be the ability to choose then gain any special upon leveling. It would also have flying as a base ability and better than average in all its stats.

Special of the twomeut should be being ungodly powerful with the ability to make a tornado centered on it, extremely high attack (10 base, +2 per level), proficiency with a spoon staff that amplifies its ability, thinkamancy equal to a full caster (adept), leadership equal to 2 or 3 times its level, and flying as a base ability. It also has an ability to negate any casting by casting a silence spell. Thus the twomeut would have an attack at level 4 of 26 or 30, equal to the massive bonuses of wanda's city conquering knight stack.

All in all the two legendaries (and other legendaries in general) should be extremely op

Author:  Salvage [ Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Life and Adventures of Sir Edelbert Spore

I am sorry Conmor. I have not posted the revisions, just finished 1-4. All your points are valid and I did make a number of changes, especially on costs.

As for Glum not getting paid, the SDE cheated and attacked rather than pay. This is why Glum became so furious, but it could not communicate the transgression. I should have Edelbert noticnotice the issue so I can say all this in story.

Mewt has Silence based Rhyme-a-mancy as well as flight and some Thinkamancy based attacks.

Twomewt gets ditto abilities, leadership, and more Thinkamancy tricks. There is no threemewt.

The losing costs are based on current monetary value. Turnip has a stash of its own and paid with honesty to include that stash. Beating a rich tribe pays more than a poor tribe. The loss payment only happens once per encounter, which may include multiple fights.

A weak tribe could be battled to croak over multiple turns.

I like your calculation but I think I am sticking to the percent of wealth method. The gem will be worth 20k or so after the edit is posted.

The Mewt and Twomewt are powerful but still fightable. True legendary Pokemon seem to me to be lost to the Alpha Age of Erfworld. Maybe just my head canon though.

Again, sorry for the confusion. I am eager for your opinions after the edit though.

Author:  conmor [ Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Life and Adventures of Sir Edelbert Spore

So SDE has a carnymancer or something? How are they avoiding the payment exactly? Did the Warlord just order the stack to attack just as Dolliwhirl was about to lose or in some other way break the mechanics?

If the warlord did it, then the tribe would suffer massive loyalty penalties for breaking the rules of pokedaemons like if a side allied with elves also allied with gobwins.

If the Dolliwhirl did it, then how? Would the no croaking from pokedaemon fights rule also be broken? This seems to be fairly powerful carnymancy because they managed to break the very way pokedaemon work to avoid paying schmuckers.

Other than that, If the payment is just once per turn, that seems very exploitable. Two allied sides both use pokedaemon and at the start of every turn before anything else can happen, they have their pokedaemon fight until each tribe has lost to the other at least once. Then, they apparently wouldnt have to pay anything else for the rest of the turn.

IT also depends on how you define encounter and available wealth. Side A has max stack in hexes A and B (both hexes filled the brim) with pokedaemon. Side B is scouting to find those stacks, so they have some pudgie flying around. A pudgie finds Hex A and is promptly croaked from the vast array of pokedaemon. Does that count as an encounter? Did Side B just lose half of their schmuckers because a pudgie was croaked? If side B then croaks one of Side A's pudgies in the same turn, do they get half of Side A's schmuckers?

Available wealth is weird because Does that Side B pudgie have access to all of Side B's pokedamon tribe's Schmuckers? Or is it only the elite groups (the 6 slot allotment) that have access to their tribes schmuckers? Does the schmucker transfer only happen if the elite 6 pokedaemons of each tribe battle each other?

A good enough clarification might be that the rules for wild pokedaemon battles are broken because they are incapable of being playtested in any realistic circumstance. That leads to unallied pokedaemon losing half of their wealth each time they lose a fight and then losing 127/128th of the schmuckers they use for emergency upkeep in one turn.

With pokedaemon tribes allied to sides, they usually travel with warlords (as most units do) and each warlord has a set of up to 6 pokedaemon they use when they meet opposing pokedaemon. Then, a plausible definition of available wealth might be the schmuckers the warlord/elite 6 pokedaemon have for paying the upkeep of all the pokedaemon in the warlords stack/hex. The schmuckers for paying their upkeep can't come from a treasury, so each warlord/hex of pokedaemon have a special purse devoted to pokedaemon upkeep that can be much larger than a normal purse.

The schmuckers in this purse come from excess food that the pokedaemon forage and can only be used for pokedaemon upkeep (or in some cases, in the purchasing of items to help the pokedaemon fight. In this example, the schmuckers could be paid to a caster in the MK for a magic item that is then given to the pokedaemons, with extreme signamancy making sure that shenanigans cant ensue. The caster gets paid and can use the schmuckers as they wish, the magic items can only be used on/by the pokedaemon, and everything works out). So while a warlord might have a pokedaemon purse of 999,999, he must still find a way to pay his own upkeep.

Ehh, basically in this method, pokedaemon have a special purse/pseudo-currency like rands that they gain from foraging, use for upkeep (including hatching eggs), and can gain/lose in fights with other pokedaemon. Someone else can pay into this purse for whatever reason (paying to breed more pokedaemon for an approaching war), but once paid in, the schmuckers can't be gotton out of the purse.

Two allied stacks of pokedaemons can redistribute wealth between each other, but must meet in person.

Possible shenanigans:

1) The caster or other they pay for the magic item is under a separate signamancy and is massively overpaid for the item (100k for a 5k item or so). The Signamancy says that they must pay 90k to the side that owns the pokedaemon or to a second allied side for whatever reason. End effect: the caster gets 2x the schmucker they wouldve otherwise gotten for selling the item, the side converts 90k pokedaemon schmuckers into regular usable-for-upgrading-cities-and-such-schmuckers, and the side gets a 5k item for their pokedaemons.

2) Sides make sure to include expensive plant type pokedaemons and set them to root the entire turn. The plant pokedaemon earn 5x or so their upkeep, and the extra is used to pay the upkeep of the other units. This does make a type of sense because the pokedaemon that is used for the schmucker production might be a tropius expy or such that is literally producing the extra upkeep in the form of rations.

A side with the basic set up for this would be Edelbert, he not only has a plant type pokedaemon, but is a florist. He could make some absolute top grade soil for fields of weirdish to just root in all day in a good field earning 10x or maybe even higher their upkeep. The weirdish are not an exceptionally good choice for this, since they seem pretty cheap (they are stated to be weak by the ink lizard pokedaemon, and while their effect can be powerful, it is painfully limited in its first two forms so far), but the money produced could be continually cycled (a la relays) throughout Edelbert's side.

Let's break down the math of pokedaemon upkeep (possible fanon)
Tragicarp: upkeep=level*1
Weak pokedaemon : upkeep=level*3
Basic infantry equivalent: upkeep=level*5
advanced infantry equivalent: upkeep=level*7
Special unit (twoll without heavy): upkeep=level*7
Special unit (twoll with heavy): upkeep=level*10
knight equivalent: upkeep=level*15 (may seem a bit low, but an elite 8 stack of level 3's would cost 360. According to fanon so far (I think Rob did a "I might change this, but it's in the ballpark word of titan") level 1 city can produce about 1k a turn, level 5 25k)
Flying mount: upkeep=10+level*10
Heavy mount: upkeep=level*15
Heavy knight or such: upkeep=20+level*25
Heavy flier: upkeep=20+level*15+number-of-other-specials*15
limited 1/10 Caster: upkeep=20+level*10+number-of-other-specials*20
Limited 1/4 Caster: upkeep=50+level*15+number-of-other-specials*20
Warlord equivalent: upkeep=50+level*10+number-of-special-specials*20
Caster equivalent: upkeep=100+level*10+number-of-special-specials*20
Archon type (flying, knight, limited caster, semi warlord)
Parson: upkeep=how much ya got?

special specials is stuff like forest capable, dance fight, plant type, flying (except in the formula for heavy fliers), archery, fire breathing, engulfing. Stuff other than the basics like commander and leadership.

Caster upkeep is semi-canon as it fits Digdoug's and Lady Barstool's upkeep if digdoug is level 6 and Lady Barstool 5.

Reason that heavy knight is so much higher than Heavy flier with other specials (dwagon or megalogwiff), is that units are usually promoted to at least on of those categories. Basically it's the punishment for template stacking to create a "I can one hit most units" unit.

Meut and mother would be caster equivalent while two meut would be have archon upkeep.Weirdish would be a twoll without heavy equivalent as while it is pretty weak, it has the specials of being plant type and weird chant/rant (both of the latter of which are penalized as all get out because of randomness, but still usable in circumstance). Those two specials knock it from the lowest to third lowest category (not counting tragicarp category).

Intermediary pokedaemon like Glum are weird to calculate since they have invisible levels. Unique rule for them might be to count half of the levels from the beginner form (rounding down, not including levels beyond when they are first allowed to change) as levels they have for purposes of calculating upkeep.

Glum has that stats and base abilities of a twoll equivalent, but its 1/4 date-a-mancy (albeit most unusable) pushes it to knight equivelent (with 3 invisible levels) for 60 upkeep at level 1 (slightly lower than a level 9 weirdish), and it is now... You have not stated Turnips level ever since it evolved to glum............... wtf. You have also not stated any new interactions with Harvey in 2,000 turns.

Edelbert would be 220 or so (dollamancy, flower power, and weirdomancy cost as other specials in addition to xp penalties). Quite a bit more expensive than Digdoug who is theoretically two levels higher than him.

Moving back to pokedaemon upkeep.

Vilebloom expy (or Bellossom expy) would probably fit under full caster as what ever specials they gain, they would presumably be able to speak, which would allow them to use their 1/4 date-a-mancy to full effect (note: this would be a version of the formula without +specials*20 because the specials are what is qualifying turnip for the caster upkeep formula).

So Vileplume expy would have the upkeep of an 8th level caster at level 1 (3 invisible levels from weirdish, 3-4 from glum). Turnip would also have very good stats especially if he holds off on leveling for a bit while being glum.

Does this all sound reasonable?

Author:  Salvage [ Fri May 19, 2017 3:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Life and Adventures of Sir Edelbert Spore

Volume 11 is up. I do not know how I got it done so fast. 12 will be slower than this for sure.

Author:  Salvage [ Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Life and Adventures of Sir Edelbert Spore

Great stuff Conmor. I need to review in more detail but your system seems solid. I cannot see why I would not use it as a guide. Thank you.

Author:  conmor [ Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Life and Adventures of Sir Edelbert Spore

you should tell peeps that 14 is up.

Author:  Salvage [ Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Life and Adventures of Sir Edelbert Spore

You are right. I'm not sure why i dint do my usual post.

13 and 14 are both posted.

Thanks conmor

Author:  conmor [ Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Life and Adventures of Sir Edelbert Spore

So how much are you having city upgrade costs as? Edelbert has money to throw around, but city upgrading is expensive.

Author:  conmor [ Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Life and Adventures of Sir Edelbert Spore

The capital would be practically free what with the thousands of turns of effort, but the other two would be paid out of pocket and not be as good as the capital. (capital has both the mountains, and has the benefits of dirtamancer juice.)

Why is Edelbert not scouting has he goes. 2 or 3 castings of clay pigeons would be enough to scout the outer range of hexes that was not previously available to him (because he is now out of the capital). Plus he might be walking into an ambush. He don't know. Also shouldn't he be walking with some golems as big tough beefy bodyguards?

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