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 Post Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 2:36 pm 
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drachefly wrote:
Oooh. I used all caps. Did that make it more convincing, like putting each word on one line?
Oh it convinced me of a few things, but the validity of your argument was not among them. Enjoy your tip, I'll let you figure out what award you won.

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     Post Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 11:24 am 
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    :roll:

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     Post Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 6:48 pm 
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    Nightseraph wrote:
    I've recently been thinking that resources in Erfworld deplete and never replenish, unless a new side takes the hex. So once mined out, a mountain stays mined out, a forest stays cut, unless a new side takes the hex.


    If this were true, then a nomadic musical kingdom rotation might be the secret to mutual peace and renewable resources.

    Every 10 turns all kingdoms rotate.

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     Post Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 10:04 pm 
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    I was thinking that the best explanation for Forecastle's new side's startup would be that sites generate income even when not occupied (else why would the last people there not have razed it at least?)

    This could apply to other resources. If Erfworld is presently beyond carrying capacity, that fits what we've seen. Parson did note that if the population were lower, they could feed everyone. Then it isn't that war actually makes you richer, but that it's needed to keep your neighbors from making you poorer.

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     Post Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 1:56 am 
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    drachefly wrote:
    I was thinking that the best explanation for Forecastle's new side's startup would be that sites generate income even when not occupied (else why would the last people there not have razed it at least?)

    This could apply to other resources. If Erfworld is presently beyond carrying capacity, that fits what we've seen. Parson did note that if the population were lower, they could feed everyone. Then it isn't that war actually makes you richer, but that it's needed to keep your neighbors from making you poorer.


    Well, it may be that that particular site has never, ever been claimed.

    Or Capital Sites are special, and can't be razed below a 1. Alternately, even razed to a 0, they can be rebuilt to a 1 once claimed. Though presumably the gain from exploiting a claim / raze / claim strategy for Shmuckers would be so marginal it's not worth the risk.

    Personally, I think that raising the Shmuckers a side generates wouldn't stop war in Erfworld, it'd just mean all sides can now field bigger armies, maintaining the same dynamic but with much higher unit numbers.

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     Post Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 2:09 am 
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    Spicymancer wrote:
    drachefly wrote:
    I was thinking that the best explanation for Forecastle's new side's startup would be that sites generate income even when not occupied (else why would the last people there not have razed it at least?)

    This could apply to other resources. If Erfworld is presently beyond carrying capacity, that fits what we've seen. Parson did note that if the population were lower, they could feed everyone. Then it isn't that war actually makes you richer, but that it's needed to keep your neighbors from making you poorer.


    Well, it may be that that particular site has never, ever been claimed.

    Or Capital Sites are special, and can't be razed below a 1. Alternately, even razed to a 0, they can be rebuilt to a 1 once claimed. Though presumably the gain from exploiting a claim / raze / claim strategy for Shmuckers would be so marginal it's not worth the risk.

    Personally, I think that raising the Shmuckers a side generates wouldn't stop war in Erfworld, it'd just mean all sides can now field bigger armies, maintaining the same dynamic but with much higher unit numbers.

    I dont know if everything will remain the same, the titans clearly balanced the shmucker supply, unit upkeep, production rates, and number of starting sides specifically to keep the game going. So changing one of those should break something somewhere or at least alter the dynamic of how wars are fought.

    I imagine when large sides with multiple capital sides fall to say their ruler, heir and capital all getting croaked by an alpha strike on their capital and all their cities go neutral, the more isolated ones could be forgotten as their neighbors gobble up their old territory. Leaving perfectly serviceable capital sites in isolated places for entrepreneurial units to claim and start their own side.

    I imagine the issue with sides that arise from this rather than the usual colony/child break away system is that they start out with next to nothing and once they start moving around and making their presence known other sides realize they missed a city when the old empire fell and they go out and get it. And they dont even have to activity be making their present known, by simply going from a single isolated hex with a city in it to a city that is popping scouts and other units your simply more likely to be spotted as the number of hexes that city is associated with went from 1 out of thousands to 20 or 30 out of thousands. So far only forecastle created a side spontaneously and he instantly aligned himself with his old side and the biggest navy around so he did not have to worry about being attacked when people noticed he was there.

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     Post Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 10:21 am 
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    In most of the turn-based strategy war games I've played, factions are eliminated from the game not because they run out of money necessarily, but because they overreach, are picked apart by several factions, or they otherwise fail to keep up in the arms race and are overpowered.

    Money facilitates the warfare, but doesn't usually spell the end of a side.

    If they lose their army, they tend to be eliminated from the game because they can't raise a new one fast enough. (This is a time factor.)

    If several side pick them apart (independently, or working together under alliance), then they're simply outnumbered. (This is an army strength factor.)

    Likewise, losing an arms race is an army strength factor. Being defeated in battle isn't the result of not having enough money.

    One notable exception is if a faction overspends in building up an army that it can't maintain. But this causes the units in excess to disband -- which should only reduce the army to a size that can be supported. So it's a short-lived problem that still doesn't necessarily spell the end of a faction.

    (Edit: unlike the real world where you can take out loans and refuse to pay your soldiers to prolong your war, until they die or desert, or eventually turn barbarian and pillage their own side for their promised wages.)

    Assuming every side is operating with limited knowledge (we know they are, they're even subject to Fog of War, since they need scouts), including how many other players are in the game, then it seems as though the expense of retaining a standing army for defense against an unknowable number of enemies is what spells the doom for most "bubble sides."

    You can only ever earn so many shmuckers to pay the upkeep of so many units to defend so many cities, and once the war machine gets going it tends not to stop -- so if another side rolls over a few of your cities, they're likely to keep going until they take your capital.

    And once you go barbarian, it's unlikely you can afford many units under your command (as Wanda discovered in the prequel book).

    So it's quite probably that standing armies cost too much to maintain on the shmuckers provided by cities, and no one trusts their neighbors. The end.

    --Dither

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     Post Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 5:13 pm 
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    dither wrote:
    In most of the turn-based strategy war games I've played, factions are eliminated from the game not because they run out of money necessarily, but because they overreach, are picked apart by several factions, or they otherwise fail to keep up in the arms race and are overpowered.

    Money facilitates the warfare, but doesn't usually spell the end of a side.

    If they lose their army, they tend to be eliminated from the game because they can't raise a new one fast enough. (This is a time factor.)

    If several side pick them apart (independently, or working together under alliance), then they're simply outnumbered. (This is an army strength factor.)

    Likewise, losing an arms race is an army strength factor. Being defeated in battle isn't the result of not having enough money.

    One notable exception is if a faction overspends in building up an army that it can't maintain. But this causes the units in excess to disband -- which should only reduce the army to a size that can be supported. So it's a short-lived problem that still doesn't necessarily spell the end of a faction.

    (Edit: unlike the real world where you can take out loans and refuse to pay your soldiers to prolong your war, until they die or desert, or eventually turn barbarian and pillage their own side for their promised wages.)

    Assuming every side is operating with limited knowledge (we know they are, they're even subject to Fog of War, since they need scouts), including how many other players are in the game, then it seems as though the expense of retaining a standing army for defense against an unknowable number of enemies is what spells the doom for most "bubble sides."

    You can only ever earn so many shmuckers to pay the upkeep of so many units to defend so many cities, and once the war machine gets going it tends not to stop -- so if another side rolls over a few of your cities, they're likely to keep going until they take your capital.

    And once you go barbarian, it's unlikely you can afford many units under your command (as Wanda discovered in the prequel book).

    So it's quite probably that standing armies cost too much to maintain on the shmuckers provided by cities, and no one trusts their neighbors. The end.

    --Dither


    It's worse than that. In most 4X games you can choose to just stop producing units. In Erfworld, you can't. You can only choose what type of units you want to pop and you simply can't stop it completely. So, you either keep taking over new places to feed your growing army or you disband your newly popped units. Or harvest them for rations, but it takes many turns to pop a heavy which cannot speak and it is considered a waste to croak that heavy for rations.

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     Post Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 5:18 pm 
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    youngstormlord wrote:
    It's worse than that. In most 4X games you can choose to just stop producing units. In Erfworld, you can't.

    Can you provide a source? When was that established as a fact, or even hinted at? I don't remember any example that suggests it :/

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     Post Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 5:35 pm 
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    zilfallon wrote:
    youngstormlord wrote:
    It's worse than that. In most 4X games you can choose to just stop producing units. In Erfworld, you can't.

    Can you provide a source? When was that established as a fact, or even hinted at? I don't remember any example that suggests it :/


    http://archives.erfworld.com/Kickstarter%20Stories/1

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    Thus was the So-be-it Union founded. It limited the number of units each side could pop, and forbade them from attacking one another. They no longer needed to maximize their forces and look over their shoulders all the time.


    I believed you could control if you wanted to Pop Units mainly through these stories.

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     Post Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 6:45 pm 
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    Based on the upkeep of archons being between 200-500 a turn it seems like leveling increases your upkeep, so even limiting your troop numbers will eventually (though much more slowly) start to put a drain on your coffers as they level from either training or combat with other sides. Your best best to keep costs down may be to be regularly cycling out your troops through combat attrition so that only the ones with the most value for their level stick around and other random 2s and 3s and 4s get taken out to be replaced by new 1s who start the cycle over.

    this causes the good ones to level faster though so again it promotes war and a need to expand in order to keep your costs below your earnings.

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     Post Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 11:56 pm 
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    I've been chewing on the exact same question for a while, and actually had a big hypothetical post written out, but I was losing the forest for the trees. "Why can't peace last" might be the wrong question to ask, like asking "why can't an elephant fly?" when trying to design an airplane. A better question is "what makes the elephant fall?", or in this case, "what makes peace fail?". I think the best answer I can settle on is something both incredibly simple, but having terrifying long-term consequences if I'm right:

    ErfWorld itself despises stagnation. This is expressed through Signamancy, but also through Fate always acting in unexpected ways, ways that shake up, or even destroy, plans. Parson keeps looking at ErfWorld like it's a big board game, where every rule is quantifiable, and it's just the players, the actors on the stage, and maybe an impartial gamemaster behind the screen. But what if it's not? What if ErfWorld itself has an agenda? What if it enjoys being fought over and held, the way we now know Jed the Head does, but it has a great deal more influence to make that happen? And what if the Titans like it that way?

    More than simply trying to piece out the exact rules that make the world work the way it is, take a step back, look at Jed the Head, remember that Jojo said that Fate is the ultimate Carnymancer, and squint a little bit, and it really starts to make a lot more sense than just "the Titans made the world this way and that's how it is".

    In short, ErfWorld isn't reduced to super-complicated Risk, because Fate is the housecat who likes to jump on the table and lounge around in the pieces whenever it gets bored. Or, for a more modern metaphor: ErfWorld isn't the impartial judge of the rules, it's the AI Director.

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     Post Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 1:43 am 
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    PoisonMushrrom wrote:
    ErfWorld itself despises stagnation. This is expressed through Signamancy, but also through Fate always acting in unexpected ways, ways that shake up, or even destroy, plans.


    I like this. I think it's also expressed through many of the rules of Erfworld- unled units automatically engaging, for example, not to mention the way that everything seems primarily designed for combat purposes. The "default state" of Erfworld is combat. Heck, even if every side in the world signed a permanent unbreakable peace and disarmament contract, there would still be ferals wandering around. (We don't know enough about how ferals work to know how big a threat they would be, but I imagine they'd be pretty bad.)

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     Post Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 4:34 pm 
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    PoisonMushrrom wrote:
    ErfWorld itself despises stagnation.


    We've had some hints of this when Parson tried to calculate the odds of his using the scroll of GTFO. He complained it was like being railroaded by two different GMs.

    I think he's partially correct: I think there are at least three GMs.

    GM 1: Erf
    GM 2: Fate
    GM 3: Numbers


    --Dither

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     Post Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:50 pm 
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    dither wrote:
    I think he's partially correct: I think there are at least three GMs.

    GM 1: Erf
    GM 2: Fate
    GM 3: Numbers

    That... would actually make a lot of sense. Erf wants conflict, Fate wants narratives, and Numbers wants... what, dice to get rolled?

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     Post Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 11:10 pm 
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    PoisonMushrrom wrote:
    dither wrote:
    I think he's partially correct: I think there are at least three GMs.

    GM 1: Erf
    GM 2: Fate
    GM 3: Numbers

    That... would actually make a lot of sense. Erf wants conflict, Fate wants narratives, and Numbers wants... what, dice to get rolled?

    Numbers wants balance. If a side does too well for too long they wrack up a surplus of positives, numbers starts hitting them with negatives until they're back down to 0.

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     Post Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:16 pm 
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    This is (possible) continuation of a discussion from the reaction thread of Book 3 - Page 224.

    Message I'm continuing

    Civilization 5 (or was it 4? haven't played the newest one yet, waiting for the shitty AI to be fixed) limited the player's army size by having the units cost gold as upkeep, the amount of and size of the cities was limited by unhappiness mechanic, which could be affected by choosing different civics which lead to wide and tall play styles, ie lots of small cities or few big cities (if I remember correctly CIV3 was badly balanced and optimally played with as many cities as possible). So amount of units affects negatively productivity of cities and productivity of cities affects positively the amount of units. Sometimes units had to be disbanded to cut down costs. Very clear.

    As far as we know, Erfworld doesn't have increasing city production, research times, civil unrest caused by unhappiness and such, but it tries to have the similar "choise of playstyles" as CIV, so it has "diminishing returns", the total money production of the side which is affected by the combined levels of it's cities, where it takes longer and longer to get the money spent on upgrading the cities back from the upgraded cities.

    This, for some reason, is supposed to lead to war being economically inevitable and the total amount of living units in the Erfworld is supposed to be higher thanks to the war than what it would be otherwise. It makes no sense with the very limited information that we have. The total amount of units in Erfworld is dependent on total amount of money. We have not been shown any ways how war would produce more total money than peace time.

    I used "money" as a substitute word for "shmuckers", for reasons of laziness and ease.

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     Post Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:37 pm 
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    Spruce wrote:
    This is (possible) continuation of a discussion from the reaction thread of Book 3 - Page 224.

    Message I'm continuing

    ...snip
    We have not been shown any ways how war would produce more total money than peace time.

    I used "money" as a substitute word for "shmuckers", for reasons of laziness and ease.


    My take on that
    viewtopic.php?f=12&t=13195
    short version : cities produce shmuckers at end of turn and there is usually a more dynamic warfare

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     Post Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:56 pm 
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    Kichumen wrote:
    Spruce wrote:
    This is (possible) continuation of a discussion from the reaction thread of Book 3 - Page 224.

    Message I'm continuing

    ...snip
    We have not been shown any ways how war would produce more total money than peace time.

    I used "money" as a substitute word for "shmuckers", for reasons of laziness and ease.


    My take on that
    viewtopic.php?f=12&t=13195
    short version : cities produce shmuckers at end of turn and there is usually a more dynamic warfare


    Oh damn, there was a newer city income discussion that I could have lifted. Oh well, too late for regrets.

    I don't think there are enough cities that are changing hands fast enough to produce a steady stream of extra shmuckers to grow the total population of Erfworld "substantially". As we don't know at what point the cities produce the shmuckers and can they do it several times per day (I suspect no) I admit that is a possible (as far as we know) way how war could produce extra shmuckers. On the other hand even if it would be true, the war has it's overhead costs: e.g. upgrades of cities and units which end up destroyed.

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     Post Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:57 pm 
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    I've got an old epileptic twee theory on the wiki that basically says warfare is NOT the natural state of Erf, but became it after an over ambitious side found it could get around the Diminishing Returns problem by attacking and sacking other sides. From there it snowballed to EVERYONE being in constant war-mode since anyone who wasn't got conquered.

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