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 Post subject: Space between Space
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:28 am 
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Has anyone speculated on why the hexes displayed in the Eyemancer Table seen at https://archives.erfworld.com/Book_1/72, appear to be separated in space?
Yet units go between hexes directly, without apparently entering this separator space.

Would this be a result of natural Weirdomancy?

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     Post subject: Re: Space between Space
     Post Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:27 am 
    E is for Erfworld Supporter Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter This user is a Tool! This user was a Tool before it was cool Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter Mined 4 Erf Won Mine4erf for the Gobwins Was an active Tool on Free Cards Day For when you need it most Won Mine4erf for the Marbits Clubs Suit Pip
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    Just overly large borders for display. They probably look a lot better at a smaller zoom level.

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     Post subject: Re: Space between Space
     Post Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:36 am 
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    The gaps are there so you have plenty of space to place your roads. You need at least two to build another settlement.
    I just wish they weren't blue, because I always play blue and my roads blend in.

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     Post subject: Re: Space between Space
     Post Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:53 pm 
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    Burley wrote:
    The gaps are there so you have plenty of space to place your roads. You need at least two to build another settlement.
    I just wish they weren't blue, because I always play blue and my roads blend in.


    This is true, the table is a map and therefore the spaces are a representation.

    That being said, Erfworld being composed of hexes creates a pretty interesting problem: what kind of a world is feasible if the smallest unit of terrain is a hex?

    For a start, it can't be a globe. It is mathematically/geometrically impossible for a globe to be tiled in hexagons. There is in fact no 3d shape that can be created out of only hexagons. It follows then that if Erfworld is *all* hexagons, it can't be 3d in the way a planet is - it has to be a flat surface (with room underneath for mining etc.) Hexagons can be infinitely tiled on a flat surface.

    Note that this assumption doesn't include configurations where Erfworld hexes cover part of a larger surface - a very large round planet that was partially covered in hexagons would probably work with a bit of fudging of side lengths and curvatures to map the shapes on to a curve. Note that there is no report of any side finding the "land beyond the hexes", so while this is possible it's not likely.

    We then get into some *very* interesting possibilities as to whether Erfworld is continuous or has edges. If it's continuous, is it infinite? If it has edges, why haven't we seen reports of sides using them defensively? Every side's history has a chance of turning up in the library; surely there'd be some scholar who had found one of the many edge side's histories?

    Another possibility is world wrapping. We can think of this like the map of an Asteroids or Pac-Man game. If you go up at the "top" you come in from the "bottom".

    My thought is that a flat surface with wrapping is the most likely wordbuilding explanation for Erfworld other than an infinite flat space. Another possibility is that it is never infinite but infinitely expandable in response to inhabitant exploration; like a roguelike that continually generates new landscape in time for characters in the game to discover them.

    Note that all of this ignores questions of time (particularly with the messy features of relative time in individual hexes as relates to side turn taking), how a sun would work etc.

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     Post subject: Re: Space between Space
     Post Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:39 pm 
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    Interesting.

    You know guys, the idea that these hexes are joined next to each other artificially brings the old Demon: The Fallen RPG to mind. In it, a “race” of angels/demons were in charge of spatially binding creation together, and were literally in charge of linking a door to place A and B. A cheap defense they’d work out was to sever the connections between a road and a city, so walking “into” a city across a road suddenly left you someplace else.

    Like seanfish is suggesting, hypothetically, whose to say that there aren’t cheats in Erfworld’s geography where the bottom border of one hex connects to another’s north (or east/west)? It makes me think a Weirdomancer / Carny linkup might be able to mess with these connections too.

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     Post subject: Re: Space between Space
     Post Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:39 am 
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    Well yes, every hex being its own pocket universe with rules in place for seeing "adjoining" hexes is another possibility - which is a strong explanation for the way time being based on turns/actions within turns works. A lot of the problems in worldbuilding for Erfworld fall away if every hex subject to a similar ruleset (read:physics) but with special local rules (read screw physics entirely). See arrows sticking in the air when shot off turn.

    I do think there's a scale of linkup that could screw with that. We know that instantaneous travel is possible via the Arkenshoes - maybe the underlying magical principles of that invokes this concept of hexes as independent spaces colocated via local rulesets (eg hex 3a has a rule on its "North" border leading to the "South" border of hex 2b).

    Lots of food for thought for sure.

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     Post subject: Re: Space between Space
     Post Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 2:43 am 
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    Here's a hypothetical question: who says the entire world is "hexed" at any given time? What if hexes only manifest in battlespaces, i.e. the "light-cone" of all units given their current move? Perhaps inaccessible lands (free of sentient units and not reachable this turn) are freeform and not part of the hex grid, and each battlespace is a sort of "island" of hexes projected onto the world sphere. Or alternatively (equivalently?), perhaps Erfworld feels free to distort the grid as much as it needs to in inaccessible lands, to maintain the expected hex-like topology for all sentient observers.

    (Counterargument: would an attuned Arkenshoes wearer with infinite move potentially force the entire world into one big battlespace, landing us right back where we started?)

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     Post subject: Re: Space between Space
     Post Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:53 am 
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    seanfish wrote:
    For a start, it can't be a globe. It is mathematically/geometrically impossible for a globe to be tiled in hexagons. There is in fact no 3d shape that can be created out of only hexagons. It follows then that if Erfworld is *all* hexagons, it can't be 3d in the way a planet is - it has to be a flat surface (with room underneath for mining etc.) Hexagons can be infinitely tiled on a flat surface.


    Not regular hexagons, no.
    Though I believe you can tile a sphere using irregular hexagons, where one side is 0.0001% shorter than the other five sides.

    I keep getting the impression that hexes are not necessarily all the same size, though they take the same amount of Move to cross.

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     Post subject: Re: Space between Space
     Post Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:20 am 
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    I'm not so sure that thinking of Erfworld as being a continuous shape divided into hexes is useful, except as an abstraction.

    When you pass from hex to hex, the time of day changes. The speed at which time passes changes. If you don't have Move, the hex boundary is an impenetrable barrier. I think it far more likely that Erfworld isn't physically continuous at hex boundaries at all, but that they represent something similar to a portal (albeit a massive and transparent one). It's like an FPS map: the player sees it all as continuous, but if you go into the map editor, the second part of the level is stored as its own disconnected box across the map from the part you start in.

    The world may be round in the sense that if you go far enough North, you'll come back to your own starting hex from the South, and ditto for West and East. But that could just as easily be from Pac-Man geometry as from some underlying physical sphere that the hex system has been tiled onto.

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     Post subject: Re: Space between Space
     Post Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:10 pm 
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    Mathematically speaking, it is possible to... cheat.

    It's basically a soccerball concept, made of hexagons and pentagons. Take that and add a bunch of hexagons between the pentagons. Now you've got a polygon with flat sides, simply bend the flat sides into curves and you have a "relatively" spherical object made (mostly) of hexagons with pentagons every now and again. In fact, so long as your "spawned" world is nowhere NEAR any of the pentagons you can keep making it larger and larger and nobody would even know the difference. A bit like how minecraft keeps "making" more of the world as you explore it, it LITERALLY doesn't exist until you go there... er, if I understand minecraft right.

    But then again, given everything else happening I do have to ask... does it really matter?

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     Post subject: Re: Space between Space
     Post Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:43 am 
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    So, are you saying that the space between hexes are loading screens between playable zones?
    If we imagine Move as "how many loading zones you can cross each turn," (rather than "how many hexes you can cross") knowledge of these zones and the geometry of them could allow a unit to click out of bounds.
    Maybe that was the power of the Arkenshoes? They didn't grant unlimited movement, they just allowed you to clip through the vertices where three hexes touch.
    Let's look at this:
    Image

    We imagine that unites can only move along the blue arrows. But, if a unit were to move directly up in the center hex, and sorta tight-rope walk the hex boundaries between the top two hexes. Would Erf know where to drop you? You could pass directly on that tight-rope to the hex above the top two hexes, effectively doubling your movement.

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     Post subject: Re: Space between Space
     Post Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:01 pm 
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    Burley wrote:
    So, are you saying that the space between hexes are loading screens between playable zones?
    If we imagine Move as "how many loading zones you can cross each turn," (rather than "how many hexes you can cross") knowledge of these zones and the geometry of them could allow a unit to click out of bounds.
    Maybe that was the power of the Arkenshoes? They didn't grant unlimited movement, they just allowed you to clip through the vertices where three hexes touch.
    Let's look at this:
    Image

    We imagine that unites can only move along the blue arrows. But, if a unit were to move directly up in the center hex, and sorta tight-rope walk the hex boundaries between the top two hexes. Would Erf know where to drop you? You could pass directly on that tight-rope to the hex above the top two hexes, effectively doubling your movement.


    I think this is an interesting possibility - I think we need to posit two kinds of moves - moves within hexes and moves between hexes. We know that moves within hexes is quasi-infinite but movement between hexes is strongly controlled. So maybe we can look at the theoretical space between hexes which itself comprises one "hex" equivalent for the purposes of hex-based movement - therefore the Arkenshoes do no more than provide free passes between a hex and it's adjoining section of "interhex".

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     Post subject: Re: Space between Space
     Post Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:08 pm 
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    Right. Inner-hex travel is limited only by the perception of time and the intention of the unit.
    Spoiler: show
    A unit could walk from one end of a hex to the other an infinite number of times, if there was a reason for it. Like, if it two warlords are afield and need to have a very complex conversation that does not get relayed to their ruler, they have all the time then need, but the ruler back in Capitalia only needs enough time to decide nothing needs done and end turn. The perception of time differs from hex to hex, based on the turn of the units' sides within the hex.

    It's maddeningly simple and complex at the same time.

    The "Lanes Between" hexes, I think, are where move is checked. You have no move off-turn, and we saw that time Jillian wanted to chase Stanely but couldn't, because it wasn't her turn and she had 0 move.
    I think we need to see what it's like to cross a hex at a vertex-border, rather than a line-border.

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     Post subject: Re: Space between Space
     Post Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:02 pm 
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    Burley wrote:
    I think we need to see what it's like to cross a hex at a vertex-border, rather than a line-border.


    Ooh!

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     Post subject: Re: Space between Space
     Post Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:57 pm 
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    Location: book 2, page -28
    Of course, if they are infinitesimally thin, then you will be diverted to either hex, depending on how far your angle of direction was angled infinitesimally to either side.
    It may be that we've never heard about anything otherwise because that's always what happens.

    That, or nothing very interesting ever happens in a location which sits astride two or more hexes. It's always things going from one to another.

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     Post subject: Re: Space between Space
     Post Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:34 am 
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    Can_nedFood wrote:
    Of course, if they are infinitesimally thin, then you will be diverted to either hex, depending on how far your angle of direction was angled infinitesimally to either side.
    It may be that we've never heard about anything otherwise because that's always what happens.

    That, or nothing very interesting ever happens in a location which sits astride two or more hexes. It's always things going from one to another.


    I think we've never heard about it because nobody has ever TRIED it, or probably even asked about it.
    Erfworld Units accept certain truths about the physics of their world, which is very easy to do when there is a magic system to reference to explain things you don't quite understand. Do birds fly because they have hollow bones, making them light enough that the air displaced by their wings creates enough lift? Nope. It's the Flight special, which is natural Weirdomancy. (It's magic, my dude!)

    Parson looks at Erfworld the way he looks at our world: With questions. He wants to know the underpinnings of the systems. When he asked about throwing bricks off of Gobwin Knob's walls, Sizemore told him what would happen and implied that nobody would ever do it, because everybody knows what would happen, so, why try anything? Most Units are popped with all the knowledge of rules and physics that the world has to give, other than high-level magical knowledge.


    tl;dr: Erfworld functions on a rule of Intent. Nobody has every Intended to enter the space between hexes, so, nobody ever has.

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     Post subject: Re: Space between Space
     Post Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:59 pm 
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    Location: book 2, page -28
    Yup, that's pretty much what I was thinking with the second block.

    So, I guess now we need to wait and see when Parson will decide when he wants to learn whether the subspace between hexes can be used as a way to achieve faster–than–turn travel.
    And, of course, whenever he is willing to take the risk: What kind of a vehicle could he use to protect him from the vacuous nonspace which is likely to exist in such places as between the hexes?

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