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 Post Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 12:41 am 
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I do apologize, but I just can't stop myself from trying to make sense of everything in the magic system. When I first looked at it I rejected a lot of what I was seeing... Dollamancy having anything to do with "motion"... and Healomancy having NOTHING to do with the "life" element? None of it made any sense.

That was well over a year ago and I've had several... "turns" in my thinking since then.

I'll order my speculations in the way they appear in the wiki page on magic, starting with Hocus Pocus.

Hocus pocus seems, as speculated on the wiki, to be about making something appear. But further revelations into predictamancy (with Marie linked with Jack) and our early vision of findamancy (when Wanda cast the spell to summon Parson) makes me think there is more to it.

An underlying ideal that my interpretations rely upon is "it's a joke".

So, when people call them "hokey pokies" it's not just an insult or a joke, that's literally "what it's all about". Hokus Pokus is about the hokey pokey, that's what it's all about.

At this point I should demonstrate my basic concept of the three axes.

Erf appears to be the most direct and the most "Real", it is all about what is right in front of you, the most direct and obvious means of expressing the class as a discipline. However, it often lacks subtlety.

Fate appears to be all about the story, why do things happen, what events are important and how to make those events occur in the right way. Fate as an entity must borrow from Erf and Numbers and presumably must pay back what it borrows in order to get what it wants... somehow.

Numbers appear to deal with values, with replacing a "number" with another "number" or with another of equal value. Numbers also deals with variables and with connecting with the numbers that Erfworld provides.

With that being said... it appears that hokus pokus is the magic of finding the consistencies amongst the chaos, finding the one thing you are looking for amongst the chaff (Findamancy), finding the one fate that WILL happen amongst those that only might happen (predictamancy), and finding the number amongst the variables and probabilities (mathamancy). In short, hokus pokus is about finding "what it's all about" amongst otherwise meaningless noise.

So, moving on to Spookism.

Turnamancy seems fairly easy, it is about motivation, altering the turns of production and move scores. There is little speculation here because of how much we've heard about it in canon (See also Vanna White, who has told us a lot).

Moving on, Dollamancy, which appears to be that which "allows" movement, or choice, to occur. A tangled string cannot move because it is tangled. So a dollamancer can untangle it. But a dollamancer can also take the cloth and mold it together, allowing it to connect and weave into an organized whole that can move... and many other things (235). There seems to be one last trick to Dollamancy that we haven't seen and that I haven't figured out yet. Maybe more, but with how much we've seen I suspect it's just one missing piece.

Weirdamancy I can't speculate on as much other than to say that it appears to deal with connecting and disconnecting with certain specials, like switching appliances on and off. But weirdamancy is known as the magic that modifies other magics, which makes sense, it is the magic that moves, changes, alters, and modifies magic. Motion.


On to stuffism, which uses the matter element exclusively.

On the Erf axis we have dirtamancy, which seems to deal with existence and substance itself. Dirtamancer Ivan Poe was able to see that Pineapple (yes, I'm still calling him that) wouldn't survive the natural dirtamancy reset at the start of its next turn IIRC. So yeah, we've seen a lot of the dirty stuff but it seems to deal with a sense of existence and reality. The living body is also dirtamancy.

On the Fate axis is Changeamancy, which appears to change the fate of an object by changing the object. It is speculated that this is just for objects and stuff... but I suspect that it can be used to change a being from one to another. Think Beast boy from the Teen Titans series... or heck, just about any kind of shapeshifter.

On the numbers axis we have Dittomancy, which duplicates objects... and units. Just let that sink in a bit... it duplicates... people. True, the duplicates don't last and don't leave bodies once croaked but still... it might as well be part of spookism it's that creepy.

And with that we've finished with the classes that only use one element. Now things get a little tricky.

I've said before that Eyemancy appears to be the magic of information.

The Erf of information, the existence thereof, the stuff it is made of... or so my speculation goes, is the essence of lookamancy. I believe that lookamancy is more than just viewing things from a distance, but in fact deals with all the senses. I also believe that it deals with awareness, which can be divided into two opposing sides, alertness (general awareness of surroundings) and focus (intense awareness of a single thing or set of things).

The Fate of information, if it is collected, is to be processed, and thus, Thinkamancy, the one magical discipline we've already heard way too much about and thus, I will not speculate upon further.

The Numbers of information... Foolamancy, wherein the information can be swapped out (treated like a number, replaceable) for something else, something false, something foolish.

Next class is hippiemancy, focusing on peace, harmony and love.

In the Erf corner we have flower power, which is the most direct expression of life and matter, featuring all sorts of plant related and chemical (poison) related effects.

The Fate of hippiemancy deals with Signamancy, which is holds a few pockets of uncertainty to it. It is known that it involves contracts and outward signs on and of oneself. Theorizing of how signamancy works is very curious. I once created a arkentool, the arkensign, which often swapped which sign it was showing, "one way", "do not enter", "Stop ahead" (decapitating someone charging in), "Stop", "Yield", and one I came up with a few days ago "No U turn" which I imagine can cause a turnamancer to turn whilst trying to turn the wielder of the arkensign.

The Numbers aspect of hippiemancy is Dateamancy, which appears to be more about relationships than calendars... but then again, you never know, it IS Erfworld after all. Dateamancy, as seen recently, can be used to save a unit from leaving Erfworld. Whether this "save" is permanent or will require further magic to become such is as of yet unknown. (Current issue... Book 3 Page 329, Sizemore is working on "kipi"ing the portal).

Next class we have is Naughtymancy.

I should point out at this point that the disciplines we have seen the least are the ones that have the most available possibilities... but the least information with which to speculate upon, it is, therefore, those that we have seen significant hints but not spent much time with, that are the most interesting.

Of particular note is Naughtymancy's Erf discipline Shockmancy, which Pineapple (deal with it) claimed and seemingly demonstrated... IS juice. That blows my mind, completely. It means that we should be using a different form of classification, with Shockmancy as being one with zero elements, just raw self with only juice to power it. But then again, if falling damage is natural shockmancy then I wouldn't be surprised to see a shockmancer able to redirect the damage onto the thing he was falling on. IE, the ground forms a crater where he lands and despite having fallen from the top of a significantly tall tower... receives no damage.

Next up is N-mancy's Fate discipline, Croakamancy, which we've heard about, including natural croakamancy, seeking one's own death, remembering others, and extrapolations through decryption.

And my personal nitpick, Naughtymancy's absent discipline in the Numbers axis.... Retconjuration... which I despise. I LOVE thinking about how to retcon retconjuration into something different. I'm currently thinking Severmancy, which a caster thereof would be like Severus Snape and which disbanding is a natural form thereof. Severmancy could sever a unit from all sorts of aspects of self, disconnecting him/her from orders, from relationships, from information, from self identity, from all sorts of things, leaving a unit hollow and empty, with only their core kernel of a self left behind. But that's just me.

Now we get to the big two, starting with stageamancy.

Stageamancy's Erf magic is Hat Magic, which some have speculated deals with the portals, given their conjuration/abjuration natures. I disagree, I believe that Findamancy is more related to the portals than Hat magic, but we've not seen enough from either to truly know. I believe that hat magic also deals with identity, you wear several hats every day, it's like a natural signamancy or a part of what you do.

Stage's notorious Fate discipline, Carnymancy has a bad reputation. I believe that all disciplines have a special cost of some kind, like for Lookamancy, you can look... but for everything you look at, there is something else you're not seeing, at least at that time. So too is it with Carnymancy, which seems to incur hidden Fate costs. I have been brewing a fanfic with a carnymancy headcanon situation where they break a rule that makes a unit's minimum upkeep bottom out at 1, so their cheap units, when being kept in a hex that reduces their upkeep cost to that limit, have a new upkeep bottom of zero. It works for them... but once the carnymancy wears off the upkeep shoots up higher than it was before the carnymancy and stays that way for a few turns. Fate cheated them out of a few shmuckers and in return they learned that Fate WILL find a way to make you pay.

The final stageamancy discipline, currently dealing with Numbers, is Rhymeomancy, which includes dance fighting, rhyming incantations, and even magic words seem to be a form of rhymeomancy. Myself I was looking forward to learning more about it from the rhymeomancer apparently from HobbitTM, the decrypted rhymeomancer who took over Wanda's song in the battle in the MK. We don't know much but I'm still speculating. and alas, that caster got beaned... again.

I should note that with stageamancy having all elements I feel like stageamancy's elements are more like "Lights" (life), "Camera" (matter), "Action!" (motion).

The last class is Clevermancy.

The Clever Erf is luckamancy, which we've seen deals less with dice and numbers and more with the choices that someone makes and whether or not that choice turns out against someone else's choice... which is a lot like comparing numbers in a dice roll now that I type it out loud. But anyway, it's in the Erf axis and not a numbers one so I guess we've just gotta deal with that.

The Fate of Clevermancy is healomancy which is what it says it is, it heals things. This does not mean that it is perfect as a healomancer linked with Charlie did more than just heal Jillian of the flower-power she was infected with... it did much more, and much worse.

The numbers of Clevermancy is moneymancy, which is interesting, as we have seen a resident moneymancer demonstrate the ability to be, as described by Parson but paraphrased by me, a walking bullcrap detector. I suspect that said moneymancer can inheritly see the value of things told to him and that such is what tips him off to whether something is valid or not.

I also find it interesting that a master class of Clevermancy would be blessed with "good luck", "good health", and "good fortune". Just saying. It appears that clevermancy is the magic that works behind the scenes as it were... which makes it a good comparison with stageamancy, which is very much in your face and "on stage" as it were.

I'm sorry, it's late and I can't sleep in tomorrow so I've got to go now. I don't think I missed any speculations... actually, no, I'm SURE I did. But I'll leave that for later, for now I'm just going to leave this big bulky block of blather here for others to tear apart and pick me a new one for it :P Until then, have fun with your own speculations.

Also, to get rid of retconjuration, Carnymancy/weirdamancy linkup with carnymancy allowing Weirdamancer to target entire magical disciplines. At the same time, a findamancer/signamancer linkup finds the rules/discipline that should be there to take the place of the empty void. Surgery really, cut out bad discipline and replace with a good one.

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     Post Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:31 pm 
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    Some additions, specifically, about Numbers, the most perplexing and annoyingly difficult-to-pin-down axis of the three.

    "Do not stray from your Number" and Jack's reference to "his Number"

    It feels like a list of Numbers... this one is the knave, this one is the knight in shining armor, this one is the knight in not-so-shining armor, this one is the pitiful idiot who wants to be the knight (in ANY armor), this one is the spiteful jerk who wants to destroy the knight in shining armor, etc.

    Then it occurred to me, these were like playing cards. So yeah, a stack of cards, including "The knave" and the like. Also interesting was the warning, I forget where, Okay, I finally found it, basically the first line. This seems to be the key to the Numbers axis. In a way, these Numbers, by scripture, are not meant to be interchanged and switched around. But Foolamancy does just that, it plays a shell game with your information and gives you false info if you don't roll high enough on your... "perception checks" I guess?

    Let's see how well it checks out, this "numbers = cards" comparison.

    Mathamancy = Not so well, off to a bad start really.
    Weirdomancy = Total match, if a magic or special can be seen as an effect like you'd find in an MTG card then removing or altering that card is a real good match to what we know of weirdomancy
    Dittomancy = Not much to say, it takes a card... and duplicates it.
    Foolamancy = Swap one card for one of another value.
    Date-a-mancy = Hmm, maybe, maybe not, it would if it means finding the relative values between multiple cards.
    Retconjuration = }yÇ☼ô $+3ƒ±;: 9 :J-♀☼╪ (I totally need a Zalgo script for this)
    Rhyme-o-mancy = I dunno, perhaps altering the values found in each card for a brief time?
    Moneymancy = In MTG terms, moneymancy would totally relate to the manna system you use to use spells and summon people/monsters to your aid.

    So, not a perfect comparison, but it still seems to make some sense.

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     Post Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:01 am 
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    Arci wrote:

    The last class is Clevermancy.

    The Clever Erf is luckamancy, which we've seen deals less with dice and numbers and more with the choices that someone makes and whether or not that choice turns out against someone else's choice... which is a lot like comparing numbers in a dice roll now that I type it out loud. But anyway, it's in the Erf axis and not a numbers one so I guess we've just gotta deal with that.

    The Fate of Clevermancy is healomancy which is what it says it is, it heals things. This does not mean that it is perfect as a healomancer linked with Charlie did more than just heal Jillian of the flower-power she was infected with... it did much more, and much worse.

    The numbers of Clevermancy is moneymancy, which is interesting, as we have seen a resident moneymancer demonstrate the ability to be, as described by Parson but paraphrased by me, a walking bullcrap detector. I suspect that said moneymancer can inheritly see the value of things told to him and that such is what tips him off to whether something is valid or not.

    I also find it interesting that a master class of Clevermancy would be blessed with "good luck", "good health", and "good fortune". Just saying. It appears that clevermancy is the magic that works behind the scenes as it were... which makes it a good comparison with stageamancy, which is very much in your face and "on stage" as it were.


    To draw a parallel with Hippiemancy which has the unified creed of "peace, love and harmony" Clevermancy could have "Live long and prosper".

    "Live long" implies healomancy and luckamancy.

    "and prosper" implies moneymancy and luckamancy.

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     Post Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:16 am 
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    Hero of Shadows wrote:
    Clevermancy could have "Live long and prosper".


    I thought we'd already established that vulcanology was croakamancy/dirtamancy.

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     Post Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:40 am 
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    I've always associated Clevermancy with "Early to bed, early to rise, makes one healthy, wealthy and wise". Luckmany is the "and".

    And as I look up the phrase, of course it is a Ben Franklin quote.

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     Post Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:41 am 
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    On the issue of Clevermancy... I tried thinking up what kind of "master class" clevermancer would be named. The best I could come up with, unfortunately, was "Clever Cog". The kind of person who just seems to succeed in life, suffering good luck, good health, and good fortune.

    Actually, it reminds me of Mr. Moneybags from the monopoly game who, although he might not look the "healomancer" part, definitely has the moneymancer down and probably the luckamancer part too.

    So yeah, good luck, good health, and good fortune, the three tenants of clevermancy.

    Now, if yall will excuse me... I'm drawing up a D&D campaign for later today that, if it works, will literally be the stuff of nightmares.

    Wish me some luckamancy... I'm going to need it.

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     Post Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:15 am 
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    Arci wrote:
    On the issue of Clevermancy... I tried thinking up what kind of "master class" clevermancer would be named. The best I could come up with, unfortunately, was "Clever Cog". The kind of person who just seems to succeed in life, suffering good luck, good health, and good fortune.

    Actually, it reminds me of Mr. Moneybags from the monopoly game who, although he might not look the "healomancer" part, definitely has the moneymancer down and probably the luckamancer part too.

    So yeah, good luck, good health, and good fortune, the three tenants of clevermancy.

    Now, if yall will excuse me... I'm drawing up a D&D campaign for later today that, if it works, will literally be the stuff of nightmares.

    Wish me some luckamancy... I'm going to need it.


    I think you hit on the name for a master clevermancer in your post, without even spotting it!
    Luck, Money, Health. All types of fortune.
    A master class Clevermancer would be a 'Fortunate', as a stand alone noun.

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     Post Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:24 am 
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    nightseraph wrote:
    Arci wrote:
    On the issue of Clevermancy... I tried thinking up what kind of "master class" clevermancer would be named. The best I could come up with, unfortunately, was "Clever Cog". The kind of person who just seems to succeed in life, suffering good luck, good health, and good fortune.

    Actually, it reminds me of Mr. Moneybags from the monopoly game who, although he might not look the "healomancer" part, definitely has the moneymancer down and probably the luckamancer part too.

    So yeah, good luck, good health, and good fortune, the three tenants of clevermancy.

    Now, if yall will excuse me... I'm drawing up a D&D campaign for later today that, if it works, will literally be the stuff of nightmares.

    Wish me some luckamancy... I'm going to need it.


    I think you hit on the name for a master clevermancer in your post, without even spotting it!
    Luck, Money, Health. All types of fortune.
    A master class Clevermancer would be a 'Fortunate', as a stand alone noun.


    Hadn't really occurred to me, to be quite honest. Now that you point it out though... I don't think merely "Fortunate" would be enough, as it seems that the master class names have been 2 words...

    Headmaster
    Puppetmaster
    So perhaps... Fortunemaster? Fortunecaster?

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     Post Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:45 am 
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    Fortune teller?

    I've insisted for a while that moneymancers make the best fortunetellers.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:05 am 
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    Anomynous 167 wrote:
    Fortune teller?

    I've insisted for a while that moneymancers make the best fortunetellers.


    Fortune... makers?

    Sorry, but... well, tellers of a fortune is too much Predictamancy... but a maker of a fortune though...

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:01 am 
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    Obviously, they're the "Fortune 500."

    I mean, they have a few ~cough~hundred~cough~ chairs open, but... They're established to grow, yeah?

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     Post Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:02 am 
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    How about "Fortunate Son" for a master-class Clevermancer ?

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     Post Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:53 am 
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    I think that I finally figured out why Retconjuration fits where it does.

    Some of the "numbers" column are... reversals, if you will, of what normally goes there.

    Foolamancy is the reverse of the normal eyemancy because instead of finding or processing information (lookamancy and thinkamancy respectively) it creates FALSE information and projects that. Note that mere projection of information is in theory part thinkamancy as well so no, merely projecting information is not purely foolamancy.

    It's late and I'm too tired to go into everything now but...

    Retconjuration, it reverses the motion of matter and time... but not the LIFE found therein. It can turn the clock back and alter the circumstances of a situation to the great creator's will... but it WILL NOT destroy the life therein.

    I still hate it though and I want to see a setup of at least 2 3-caster links to remove and replace Retconjuration with something that can actually BE cast!

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     Post Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:53 pm 
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    When I think of magic I usually first think of telekinesis, the ability to move objects around. This would make me think that telekinesis would fall somewhere within Spookism, where motion lives...

    ...except that what exists in Spookism deals pretty much with JUST motion, and telekinesis is MOTION applied to an object, AKA... MATTER.

    So, I think that telekinetic effects would be a subset of shockmancy.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:31 pm 
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    Foolamancy is always falsifying information. Even when they project a truth, the projection itself is false. Dueling Foolamancy is a double negative. ;)

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     Post Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:48 am 
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    Foolamancy, as explained by Jack Snipe, is not a projection. It's a mind-affecting spell that makes the affected targets think they are seeing something else.

    Bogroll wasn't cast upon to make him look like Parson. Bogroll had a spell applied to target all onlookers and make them think he looked like Parson.

    In D&D terms:
    Spoiler: show
    Foolamancy is not an Illusion, but an Enchantment.


    I think, personally, that Thinkamancy and Foolamancy should be switched on The Table.
    I see axes thusly: Erf as "What is," Numbers as "How it's sorted," and Fate as "How it's used."
    For Eyemancy (which covers life and motion, but not matter), Lookamancy is about observing stimuli, Thinkamancy is about cataloging/sorting/storing stimuli, and Foolamancy is about manipulating stimuli.

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     Post Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:44 am 
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    Burley wrote:
    Foolamancy, as explained by Jack Snipe, is not a projection. It's a mind-affecting spell that makes the affected targets think they are seeing something else.

    How ever it actually works, it can still be seen as always falsifying. Messing with the numbers of information.

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     Post Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:03 am 
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    Burley wrote:
    Foolamancy, as explained by Jack Snipe, is not a projection. It's a mind-affecting spell that makes the affected targets think they are seeing something else.

    Bogroll wasn't cast upon to make him look like Parson. Bogroll had a spell applied to target all onlookers and make them think he looked like Parson.

    In D&D terms:
    Spoiler: show
    Foolamancy is not an Illusion, but an Enchantment.


    I think, personally, that Thinkamancy and Foolamancy should be switched on The Table.
    I see axes thusly: Erf as "What is," Numbers as "How it's sorted," and Fate as "How it's used."
    For Eyemancy (which covers life and motion, but not matter), Lookamancy is about observing stimuli, Thinkamancy is about cataloging/sorting/storing stimuli, and Foolamancy is about manipulating stimuli.


    True but, in my defense,I didn't say that it projected false information to the eyes. I did say eyemancy, but I did not say eyes.

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     Post Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:05 pm 
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    Arci wrote:
    True but, in my defense,I didn't say that it projected false information to the eyes. I did say eyemancy, but I did not say eyes.


    Are you a Master Signamancer? :P

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:54 am 
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    Arci wrote:
    When I think of magic I usually first think of telekinesis, the ability to move objects around. This would make me think that telekinesis would fall somewhere within Spookism, where motion lives...

    ...except that what exists in Spookism deals pretty much with JUST motion, and telekinesis is MOTION applied to an object, AKA... MATTER.

    So, I think that telekinetic effects would be a subset of shockmancy.

    :roll: Ugh what does that even mean, "JUST MOTION", what would motion that's not applied to anything even BE?

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