Forum    Members    Search    FAQ

Board index » Erfworld Things » Everything Else Erfworld




Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 
 
Author Message
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:55 am 
User avatar
This user is a Tool! This user has been published! Armored Dwagon Monthly Winner Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter Won Mine4erf for the Gobwins Was an active Tool on Free Cards Day
Offline
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2016 3:41 pm
Posts: 122
So, why is Moneymancy in the numbers column and Luckamancy in the erf column?

Seems like one of Moneymancy's primary abilities is the creation of Gems, or items of Erf, where as Luckamancy is only a balancing of numbers and doesn't have any form of physical representation.

Feels like they should be reversed.

_________________
"but I have to wonder how much anyone here really knows about their own world. What he told me sounds like a lot of crap about the four basic elements that people believed for centuries just because Aristotle said it." - Parson

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:14 am 
    User avatar
    This user has been published! Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit This user posted the comment of the month
    Offline
    Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 11:48 pm
    Posts: 1027
    This confused me too, and the way I ended up conceptualizing it when writing Hungry Jungle was that Luckamancy is in Erf because it has tangible results in the material world.

    Sure, numbers / rolls are being manipulated, but the effects are much more physical and material than Moneymancy's. It helps a bit to compare both to other disciplines in their same Axis column. Dirtamancy deals with what matter / Erf is (a stone could be a stone, a house, a building, or a golem) while Luckmanacy deals with what Erf can do. (Can the stone hit that archer if thrown, does it crit or only wound when it hits, will it break in two if struck by a hammer?)

    Moneymancy meanwhile deals with Numbers, because Shmuckers are just as immaterial as "rolls" and the hypothetical "dice", but accumulate. Luckamancy does not store rolls*, only affect which and where they happen. Moneymancy deals with Shmuckers, how (many?) are generated, consumed(?) via upkeep, changing them from one state to another, multiplying(?), making them grow, basically RL banking and working with compound interest. This is partly why I think it makes a lot of sense Benjamin is so good with the Mathamancy bracer. Mathmancy is pure numbers, just a small remove from pure Moneymancy.

    *The Double Eagle being the exception, with a Luckamancy related special.

    _________________
    2018 Halloween competition - Open!

    Here's my Erfics: Hungry Jungle. -- Completed!

    The Overlord's New Clothes -- Two parter, Completed

    Unjust Deserts -- Completed!

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:01 am 
    User avatar
    This user posted the comment of the month This user got funny with a rodent Shiny Red Star Mined 4 Erf Was an active Tool on Free Cards Day
    Offline
    Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2017 10:55 am
    Posts: 611
    When Clay is telling Wanda how Luckamancy works, he tells her "So what Luckamancy actually does is steal Numbers from the world." (IPTSF 008) For me, that explains would be why Luckamancy would be on the erf axis; it affects the physical world.

    As for Moneymancy and the numbers axis, that's even easier. Moneymancy is similar to earth-style accounting and that's pretty much a straight-up numbers game if there ever was one.

    _________________
    "You do have some terribly unorthodox personal views..."

    Thank you to Yshl's daughter for my new avatar. I love it! 3/4/2018

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:38 am 
    User avatar
    Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Was an active Tool on Free Cards Day This user is a Tool!
    Offline
    Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2015 10:35 am
    Posts: 2407
    Location: Wales... New South Wales
    Moneymancy is just so obviously on the Numbers Axis that I often confuse it with Mathamancy.

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:20 am 
    User avatar
    Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter This user is a Tool! Was an active Tool on Free Cards Day
    Offline
    Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 2:43 pm
    Posts: 204
    So, to chime in, I work in accounting and, while I do work with numbers, I don't actually do much Math. It's usually just formulas and comparisons of numbers, rather than measurements and calculations. So, I see Mathamancy and Moneymancy as very different disciples. But, I do mess with intangible representations all day, so, I feel like it's Numbers.

    But, on topic: I've also felt that Luckamancy, while it affects the physical world, seems to be a numbers game. There's an intangibility to Luckamancy, almost to the point that what's happening isn't from Luckamancy, but just luck. Clay said that he can add a bonus somewhere by subtracting somewhere else. I think that's Numbers.
    However, from a writer's perspective, sometimes you realize that, when you're world-building, you have to make some self-interpretations to make things fit in an easily digestible way (in this instance a grid). We learn about the Elements and Axes grid the way that Parson would see it: As a rule. But, most people on Erf learn it the way we learn about science, religion and philosophy: through research, thought and debate. Maybe the Elements and Axes are more fluid that Stupidworlders think they are, or maybe they're even more rigid.

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:48 am 
    User avatar
    This user is a Tool! This user has been published! Armored Dwagon Monthly Winner Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter Won Mine4erf for the Gobwins Was an active Tool on Free Cards Day
    Offline
    Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2016 3:41 pm
    Posts: 122
    See here's my problem though. We've never seen a Moneymancer do anything other than convert schmuckers to gems, or reduce the upkeep of physical units. Sure it seems like it should be numbers because we know what banks in stupid world do with money magic, they over leverage their assets and turn profit on imaginary savings. But there's not a stock market in Erfworld, there's no savings and loans interest, its just a bucket of schmuckers and costs per turn.

    Maybe they have more going on than that? They are good at estimating costs I guess, for educated decisions on how to spend some schmuckers, but really they just deal with conversion of schmuckers into real world items/units.

    Luckamancy is just numbers. Though that is interesting as Merilynne said, "Steal numbers from the world". That the erf is where all of the numbers come from. But it still feels way more abstract/numbers than moneymancy to me.

    _________________
    "but I have to wonder how much anyone here really knows about their own world. What he told me sounds like a lot of crap about the four basic elements that people believed for centuries just because Aristotle said it." - Parson

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:35 pm 
    User avatar
    E is for Erfworld Supporter Battle Crest Pins Supporter Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter
    Offline
    Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:57 pm
    Posts: 1070
    Or maybe the entire chart is bogus like Parson theorized.

    _________________
    “I will tell you precisely what Royalty is,” said Intra, “It is a continuous cutting motion.”

    -The Song of Maybe

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:29 pm 
    User avatar
    This user is a Tool! Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter E is for Erfworld Supporter Year of the Dwagon Supporter Mined 4 Erf Won Mine4erf for the Gobwins Won Mine4erf for the Marbits Was an active Tool on Free Cards Day
    Offline
    Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 10:34 pm
    Posts: 396
    mbellish wrote:
    But there's not a stock market in Erfworld, there's no savings and loans interest

    Not true, loans and interest absolutely exist. Don offered Slately a high-interest loan during the battle for Spacerock.
    And money still has time value in general - imagine having to decide whether to sell a city or keep it. Depends what the future cashflows you expect from it are, how long you expect you could hold it, and so on. I bet Moneymancers are good at estimating the risks of a situation and making intelligent estimates of assets' present value based on that.

    Burley wrote:
    So, to chime in, I work in accounting and, while I do work with numbers, I don't actually do much Math.

    I do wonder what kind of math (let alone capital-M Math) is exclusive to the Mathamancers. The Thinkmancers seem to have the concept of "sigma" and probability, which I'm sure the Luckamancers do as well. Moneymancers surely do the accounting and finance kind of math, and we've seen Mathamancy (from the bracer) excel in battle calculations.

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:22 pm 
    User avatar
    This user has been published! Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit This user posted the comment of the month
    Offline
    Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 11:48 pm
    Posts: 1027
    mbellish wrote:
    Luckamancy is just numbers. Though that is interesting as Merilynne said, "Steal numbers from the world". That the erf is where all of the numbers come from. But it still feels way more abstract/numbers than moneymancy to me.


    Well, so's Healomancy if you want to simplify it. Adding imaginary "Hits" back to units. But it's Fate aligned, because it's at least marginally affecting the immediate Fate of a unit whether or not they croak that moment or turn.

    Erf Axis Disciplines like Luckamancy all have pretty tangible, immediate effects on their environment or it's study. Dirtamancy, Flower Power, Turnamancy, etc.

    I look at the Luckamancy effect on Numbers as being less direct Numbers or Rolls manipulation as it is "magnetizing" Stuff so that it attracts or repels different kinds of rolls. It may seem to be grabbing the numbers directly, but it's still just indirectly manipulating them. Wanda could be cursed with Luckamancy to fail all her dodge rolls and get Crit, but Fate acts as the final arbiter and keeps the numbers from landing. Marie all but states Luckamancy is powerless against Fate(d units).

    Caprice wrote:
    I do wonder what kind of math (let alone capital-M Math) is exclusive to the Mathamancers. The Thinkmancers seem to have the concept of "sigma" and probability, which I'm sure the Luckamancers do as well. Moneymancers surely do the accounting and finance kind of math, and we've seen Mathamancy (from the bracer) excel in battle calculations.


    Well, RL Math can do funky things with how you even conceptualize how dimensions work. Then there's the meta fictional Signamancy elements, so Mathamancy might be akin to Mentats from Dune, or Tetragrammaton Clerics from Equilibrium.

    But of course, Rulers probably stick to asking their Mathamancers simpler, more practical questions rather than run the massive simulations Parson did with Jack.

    _________________
    2018 Halloween competition - Open!

    Here's my Erfics: Hungry Jungle. -- Completed!

    The Overlord's New Clothes -- Two parter, Completed

    Unjust Deserts -- Completed!

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:56 pm 
    User avatar
    Offline
    Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:20 pm
    Posts: 1171
    Think of a game.

    You have the board, or the map. Areas, terrain tiles, whatever. These are Erf.

    Then you have entities, models, things that are not the map, but are on the map in a particular relationship to the map and to each other based on their location on the map. These are units, and they have a Fate.

    Then you have values and variables that are not associated with any particular part of the map or board, or any particular entity/model/unit, like the resource counts and the thresholds for invoking different rules and such. These are Numbers.

    Luckamancy adjusts the sum total of outcomes of things happening within a section of the map. Healamancy adjusts the unit to restore it to a default state. Moneymancy deals with the abstraction called shmuckers, and how they are used to pay upkeep, upgrade cities, make deals with other sides, or just to make gems.

    Findamancy identifies whether a desired item or attribute is available in a location of the map or board. Predictamancy identifies the teleology of units, their destiny. Mathamancy compares the total Numbers tending towards each outcome.

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:12 am 
    E is for Erfworld Supporter Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter This user is a Tool! This user was a Tool before it was cool Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter Mined 4 Erf Won Mine4erf for the Gobwins Was an active Tool on Free Cards Day For when you need it most Won Mine4erf for the Marbits
    Offline
    Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:54 pm
    Posts: 578
    Remember, the only description of Luckamancy that we have is from Clay Dice, who was level 3 (unknown proficiency). More capable Luckamancers may be able to affect things like the probability of finding more treasure in ruins, more forage in a hex, or how likely the next warlord will be a caster. They also might be able to trade rolls with other sides, store Luck (like double-eagles), or even brute force adjust rolls using juice (no swaps or storage). Luckamancy may be more Erf-axis than we know.

  • Tipped by 1 person!
  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:53 am 
    This user has been published! Armored Dwagon Monthly Winner Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
    Offline
    Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2015 1:59 am
    Posts: 269
    mbellish wrote:
    So, why is Moneymancy in the numbers column and Luckamancy in the erf column?

    Axes and elements can't predict what disciplines can do. Golems can be either Dirt' or Doll', that is, either Erf/Matter or Fate/Motion, but not Erf/Motion (Turn' can only do vehicles, which count as items) or Fate/Matter (Change' can do ... stuff, but no units). That doesn't even count hat golems or the notion that uncroaked are basically corpse golems.

    Instead, I think it describes the thought processes of their practitioners. A Doll' thinks of the act of crafting a cloth golem as being imbuing a unit with Motion and a low-level Fate; a Dirt' thinks of crafting a rock golem as tweaking the Matter of Erf. A Money' thinks with Numbers; a Luck' thinks in terms of the effect on Erf.

    _________________
    My flagship fanfic is Ethereum.
    I'm writing a web original! Hype!

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:35 am 
    Has collected at least one unit
    Offline
    Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2016 4:29 am
    Posts: 304
    Caprice wrote:
    I do wonder what kind of math (let alone capital-M Math) is exclusive to the Mathamancers. The Thinkmancers seem to have the concept of "sigma" and probability, which I'm sure the Luckamancers do as well. Moneymancers surely do the accounting and finance kind of math, and we've seen Mathamancy (from the bracer) excel in battle calculations.


    My theory is that Mathamancers don't exactly do the calculations themselves. Using juice, they access some sort of ruleset, or game engine, and either make it do the calculations or get variables for calculations from it. That means that their calculations could also be based on things they don't know about, like the chance to beat a sea monster they don't know the stats of, or battle probabilities against archons when the Mathamancer doesn't know all of their specials. And I theorize further that a Mathamancer could find out the stats and probability of almost anything, but could not know why the chances are like that if the chances are abnormal. This theory doesn't have much basis in canon, it started with my assumption that what Parson's bracer can do is what any master class Mathamancer can do, and those who said otherwise simply don't know enough about Mathamancy.

    _________________
    I wrote a book.
    Friendship is natural date-a-mancy; Date-a-mancy is a school of magic; therefore, friendship is magic.
    The real twist of book 3 is that it will be 500 pages long.

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
    Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
     
    Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 

    Board index » Erfworld Things » Everything Else Erfworld


    Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests

     
     

     
    You cannot post new topics in this forum
    You cannot reply to topics in this forum
    You cannot edit your posts in this forum
    You cannot delete your posts in this forum
    You cannot post attachments in this forum

    Search for:
    Jump to: