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 Post Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 6:25 am 
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So I had this weird idea in the wee hours of the morning. It's rambly, sorry. I'll start with a random-fact dump, and then move onto what they implied in my caffeine-addled brainspace. Do feel free to bring me up short on wrongs.

Random Facts
The Ruler and the capital are linked.

If the capital falls, the side ends until the Ruler gets to a new capital site. Units disband, but units stacked with the Ruler do not.

If the Ruler dies, the side ends unless they have an heir. Field units disband. Cities freeze in time. MK Casters become barbarians.

Basic infantry apparently have 'no free will'. The only people with apparent free will are commanders, and even then, their free will is partially subsumed to the desires of their Ruler.

The special dolls created by Bill, and by Maxwell at Haffaton (IPTSF 56), were given life through being connected to the life and minds of their creators. When Maxwell died, his dolls reverted to being mindless; presumably if Bill or Maggie die, the Maggiequin will also revert.

As seen with Jed, cities have a kind of raw unformed proto-mind.


Speculation
Most units are like the special dolls. Their life and minds derive from a connection to the proto-mind of their capital site, similar to how Maggiequin's semi-sentience derives from its connection to Maggie. If the capital is destroyed, and there are no other capital sites to reconnect to, units lose their connection (similar to 'thread-cutting') and immediately disband. Units in sub-cities do not disband, but freeze in time; being 'connected' to a city, their existence is partially sustained, but a normal city isn't enough to provide 'true' life.

Jed was able to send Maggie juice because he acted like a 'Dollamancer' with Maggie as his connected 'doll'. Dollamancers can give juice to their dolls; Jed can give it to his units.

Rulers give a similar connection to capital sites. They awaken capital sites by 'connecting' to them, forming new sides. From there, the Ruler uses the capital and other conquered cities to produce derived units. Killing the Ruler knocks out the capital site, which kills the units.

If the capital is conquered while the Ruler is in the field, the Ruler is not killed, because Rulers don't derive their existence from a capital. Further, while the Side's units disband, the units in a Ruler's stack do not... because, being stacked with the Ruler, they are 'directly connected' to them, and can continue to 'draw existence' through that. capital cities essentially act as big 'amplifiers', allowing thousands of units to draw existence from the Ruler through the capital. If the capital-connection is sundered, they croak, but being connected directly to the Ruler, stacked units can continue to exist.

Things that clash with this hypothesis: Why do MK'd casters not disband?

The Arkenpliers
The Arkenpliers essentially act as a pseudo-'Side' with Wanda as its Ruler. She connects to the Arkenpliers, and the Arkenpliers are the 'capital', allowing connections to all the Decrypted. A Decrypted unit's loyalty to the Arkenpliers is the same as an ordinary unit's loyalty to their own side; the Arkenpliers essentially 'Turn' the unit to the side known as 'Arkenpliers'. Ossomer turned back to Jetstone because, while the 'pliers seem to induce a high initial 'loyalty' in the units they turn, Decrypted can become disillusioned about the 'side' they serve just like any other unit of a side can.

Speculation from the speculation: if the 'pliers act as a capital side, do they have a proto-mind too? Could Maggie awaken sentience in them, as she did with Jed?

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     Post Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:15 pm 
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    This is an appealing perspective. Seems to add up pretty well. The Magic Kingdom does present a point of confusion, but I feel like we could work out a probable cause there (it is, obviously, governed by rules no other hex experiences).

    As to the Arkenpliers, there's a toss-up. Is Jed Jed because he is the crux of Stanley's power? Or is it because he is a city? The Arkenpliers may be a wholly artificial amplifier. Since it attunes, I -am- inclined to believe that they could awaken, even if I don't think mundane units could cause it. (I guess maybe if Wanda linked with a Dollamancer?)

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     Post Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 9:23 am 
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    Very interesting...

    So, if Jed works because capital sites have a sort of proto-mind, maybe the MK is able to sustain casters after the failure of their side because it has a kind of proto-mind itself? Which is maybe either a)something created by the Great Minds, or b)something that came into existence when the MK was created, and is being kept asleep by the Great Minds.

    Here's another thought...if Jed represents the proto-mind of the City, awoken through magic, what does that mean for the role of the Ruler? Generally, the Ruler, in charge of a capital, equals a Side. We've seen Jed putting himself more in charge, and Stanley becoming more and more passive. Does this theory of yours lend support to the idea that Jed can maintain the Side even without Stanley?

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     Post Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 2:50 pm 
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    Lawence of Awabia wrote:
    So, if Jed works because capital sites have a sort of proto-mind, maybe the MK is able to sustain casters after the failure of their side because it has a kind of proto-mind itself? Which is maybe either a)something created by the Great Minds, or b)something that came into existence when the MK was created, and is being kept asleep by the Great Minds.


    I'm wondering if it's something to do with casters 'ruling' the MK. Rulers rule in Erfworld itself, so Erfworld is 'their' land, and they turn barbarian in their land, while casters disband. But the MK is the casters' world, so casters go barbarian like rulers. Perhaps if a ruler was in the MK when their capital fell, they would disband. Assuming a non-caster ruler, at least.

    I doubt the Great Minds know anything of it, though. Jed was new to Isaac, too; and the other Minds know about it because they read the information from the minds of Maggie, Ace and Sizemore when separating them, but they're not acting like another of their Great Secrets has been uncovered. I imagine Maggie would have been threatened with Badness at the very least if they knew about stuff like Jed.

    Quote:
    Here's another thought...if Jed represents the proto-mind of the City, awoken through magic, what does that mean for the role of the Ruler? Generally, the Ruler, in charge of a capital, equals a Side. We've seen Jed putting himself more in charge, and Stanley becoming more and more passive. Does this theory of yours lend support to the idea that Jed can maintain the Side even without Stanley?


    From what I can tell I think the capital is 'subservient' to the ruler (there's a better word for what I mean but I can't think of it) - a ruler can exist without a capital, but a capital can't exist without a ruler. So Jed is like another special doll, drawing his life from the existence of Stanley. (There's a chain, of sorts: Ruler > Capital > Subjects. Destroying one destroys everything below it. but not above.) So I think if Stanley dies, Jed'll still do whatever the city version of croaking is. Maxwell's dolls were fully autonomous, too, but they still reverted even so.

    Of ccourse, this all depends on this model of mine not being a pile of Unipegataur boop, so as to Jed's actual side-sustaining abilities, we'll have to wait and see. :P

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     Post Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 12:42 pm 
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    (Addendum: What if it's the MK itself that provides life? Capital = portal. When the capital is lost the portal closes, cutting off that side's access to the MK, which makes everyone disband. Casters disband if they're Field-side, but not if they're MK-side. Maybe other units would also not disband if they're in the MK when their side ends. Rulers don't need a direct MK connection, though, because... reasons.)

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     Post Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 4:38 pm 
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    This is an interesting hypothesis. I like the idea that Capital Magic actually flows outward from the Magic Kingdom through their portal connection. The one thing all capitals share is a connection to the Magic Kingdom.

    However, another possible way to look at it is that when a unit is in the MK when their side ends, it is actually more similar to them being in a city when their side ends. As in, the unit freezes in time until someone interacts with them. The difference in the MK being that there is always someone from another side there so nobody actually freezes when this happens. (If someone frozen in a neutral city leaves that city when it unfreezes, do they disband or become a barbarian? Would they even have a turn/more than 0 move on their turn?)

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     Post Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 8:20 pm 
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    When FAQ lost their capital in Book 0 the side continued to persist.

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:10 am 
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    CDS wrote:
    When FAQ lost their capital in Book 0 the side continued to persist.

    If the first post is considered fact then FAQ, such as it was, was being sustained solely through the still living king. Casters couldn't go barbarian because there was no portal left. Hence the king ordering them to turn before he does.

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:10 am 
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    But that is in contradiction to what happened to Wanda in Book 0. Banhammer also may have gone last because he wanted to ensure the casters did turn and he would have had no power over them if he had turned first as Jillian would have become Queen (who clearly had her own agenda).

    It is a nice theory but we just don't have enough information at this point in time and FAQ had such a silly amount of casters that it is not unreasonable to assume they could circumvent rules in some fashion.

    We also need to add a caveat that Book 0 is a fairly suspect place to draw concrete conclusions on rules as it is not a finished book or even 'Canon' at this point.

    I'd also disagree with some of the 'facts' in the original post are facts if you have to put the word 'apparently' in then it is potentially not a fact as there are some degrees of uncertainty present in that word.

    Over all a pretty interesting first post but I am not sure we can take the premise as factual never mind the conclusion at this stage.

    That might change though.

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:25 am 
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    CDS wrote:
    But that is in contradiction to what happened to Wanda in Book 0.

    No it is not. Wanda was the heir and became ruler of the capital, for five seconds, when ruler died. Banhammer, like Wanda, was the present ruler of the capital when it fell. Both Banhammer and Wanda are the same situation; ruler survives fall of capital, stack he or she is leading survives too.

    Unless you can tell me how they are different there is no evidence to support your claim.


    This is a hypothetical discussion so I have no more to reply to for I finding nothing to argue/debate against.

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:31 am 
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    Because Banhammer had units outside of his stack that survived in the MK that still where FAQ units.

    Also in addition Wanda became a Barbarian while Banhammer and FAQ as a side continued to exist as its own entity.

    We're given explicit information that Wanda became a Barbarian:

    Quote:
    Those new senses she'd been given went dark just as suddenly as they'd come to her, although she could now sense the upkeep of the units she was stacked with. These units were hers alone, now. In a horror of isolation and silence, Lady Wanda Firebaugh understood that she was a barbarian.


    http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%200/26


    While with Banhammer and FAQ it implied they are not Barbarians

    Quote:
    “Before I turn, I will send for the rest of the Court. Each of you must turn before me, or else you will become barbarians.”


    http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+0/60

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     Post Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:50 pm 
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    Maybe (and I realize this contradicts details from Book 0 and Queen Bea's suicide, but otherwise it hasn't really been tactically relevant in an on-screen way yet) unled field units don't actually disband immediately? They just become unled barbarians, then disband the next morning when they don't have any purse or treasury to draw upkeep from.

    Wanda, being inexperienced with ruler senses, might have mistaken the "unit suddenly and involuntarily stops being mine without injury or enemy contact" sensation for actual disbanding.

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     Post Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:52 pm 
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    Procrastimancer wrote:
    (Addendum: What if it's the MK itself that provides life? Capital = portal. When the capital is lost the portal closes, cutting off that side's access to the MK, which makes everyone disband. Casters disband if they're Field-side, but not if they're MK-side. Maybe other units would also not disband if they're in the MK when their side ends. Rulers don't need a direct MK connection, though, because... reasons.)


    I like the idea that MK casters dont disband because of the more direct connection. However, if we assume the connection of source-rulers-capitals ( cities )-units-dolls then when a dollamancer dies his dolls should not become mindless if they are in capitals (because of the direct connection). But maybe since they are not perfect it is acceptable.

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     Post Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:54 am 
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    so i was reading old pages, and decrypted might not be able turn by turnamancy : https://wiki.erfworld.com/LIAB_29, So the relation of unit-capital is not enough to explain decryption. There has to be more.

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     Post Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:48 pm 
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    (Pfft. Never expected this mass of random speculation to get necro'd. Then again, never expected to hit something with it, either :D )

    paskal wrote:
    so i was reading old pages, and decrypted might not be able turn by turnamancy : https://wiki.erfworld.com/LIAB_29, So the relation of unit-capital is not enough to explain decryption. There has to be more.


    Yeah, they seem more tightly bonded then normal - can't be turned, and can't be disbanded, either, from the looks of that thing between Marie and Jillian. I wonder if the pliers have the ability to sort of 'tightly hold onto' a string - like, gripping them tight and not allowing them to be pulled away by force, as pliers are wont to do. They seem to have an affinity with strings, what with the thread-cut Wanda did to free Lilith and how they maybe-might-have absorbed a bunch of string-splatter after Big Think burst.

    Maybe it's something like what Jed did for Parson? After the thread holding Person to Erfworld was cut, Jed drew from the source to strengthen the other connections to pull him back. Perhaps the 'pliers do something similar, offsetting turnamancy and disbanding by drawing from the source to bolster the bond to the unit in question.

    ... wait, is it H-Strings? Jed pulled Parson back by strengthening the threads that represented people's feelings for him, which kept him in Erfworld even though he should, by rights, have gone. What if every Decrypted gains a sudden and mysterious love for Wanda because the Pliers establish H-strings? They aren't cut when other threads are and the Pliers keep them reinforced from the Source like Jed did with Parson, which makes them more resistant to being turned or disbanded. And the only time a Decrypted ever turned from control was when he fell out of love with Wanda's methods - which sliced his H-string to her.

    Hah! Okay, just went on a brief archive-walk. Didn't expect to find something so compelling so soon: from page 313, as Maggie speculates what connects her to Bill's doll-copy of her:

    Quote:
    When Bill touched the doll, it was like pulling for Parson. What were they pulling on?

    The Lady's Firebaugh's thread to Ansom, when he'd been a prisoner, was like the doll senses.

    The Croakamancer's thread to Lilith was the same kind of bond.

    [...]

    These bonds are not Thinkamancy. These bonds are feelings. They connect hearts, not heads. H-strings, not G-strings.


    EDIT: ... oh, God. If H-Strings are the fundamental connectors - even beyond G-strings - if H-strings are the way Rulers give orders, and units connect to units, and dolls and golems connect to their creators, and all units of a side to connect to the side... if, in short, H-strings are thing allowing all the mechanics of Erfworld to tick forwards, moment by moment and turn by turn, then that means...

    ... in Erfworld, Love makes the world go round.

    That is the worst pun in the history of anything ever

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     Post Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:04 am 
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    Procrastimancer wrote:
    Hah! Okay, just went on a brief archive-walk. Didn't expect to find something so compelling so soon: from page 313, as Maggie speculates what connects her to Bill's doll-copy of her:

    Quote:
    When Bill touched the doll, it was like pulling for Parson. What were they pulling on?

    The Lady's Firebaugh's thread to Ansom, when he'd been a prisoner, was like the doll senses.

    The Croakamancer's thread to Lilith was the same kind of bond.

    [...]

    These bonds are not Thinkamancy. These bonds are feelings. They connect hearts, not heads. H-strings, not G-strings.

    I realized besides these thinkamancers un-juiced thoughts about dollamancy, we also have a dollamancers perspective on a thinkamancy mess from page 274. Although we don't see much difference between types of strings, we see some concepts might be related to it.
    First one is "order". Since we are searching a fundamental thing beside g-strings, this might be important (i am talking about [knowledge + will -> order] part). I think this is only part of it though.
    The other thing is "sky". This is mentioned once in that update, when our dollamancer started to inspect portal column, however, it is clearly stated as a separate thing to notice. It might be important because Magie said
    Quote:
    ... like defining a sea only in terms of how a cork bobs up and down.

    fabric in sky and cork in a sea seemed similar to me.
    The final thing is, unfortunately, the least mentioned. When our dollamancer get curious about Date-a-mancy, a.k.a. the magic of giving orders, big think stops him. If dirtamancers put order upon the string of dirt, what might date-a-mancer put order to?
    Since we know that g-strings are related to heart it is logical that it might be related to Date-a-mancy. Also since apparently date-a-mancy is related to this order thing (magic of giving orders) it also might be very fundamental. If they happen to be casting on what that "sky" represents then all of the clues would point to love, which at this point somehow seems wishful and inevitable.
    Another point is that we know big think is very secretive about this stuff, even when they are at the edge of death. Considering our dollamancer probably might not sperate from big-think I think we can say that big-think is keeping this a secret even from himself. Which indicates to me is that this information shows a major flaw in big-thinks thinking/existence (why else he would be avoiding any information even in death-bed).
    In short, I also think that
    Procrastimancer wrote:
    ... in Erfworld, Love makes the world go round.

    That is the worst pun in the history of anything ever


    On top of all this important stuff, we also should keep in mind that date-a-mancy is in numbers axis. Up until this point I believed in that date-a-mancy is like running simulation with both units numbers, determining which would have upper hand in combat or whether they are compatible or not. However no matter how much I think about it I can not relate date-a-mancies relation with numbers to giving orders. Any thoughts?

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     Post Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:00 am 
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    paskal wrote:
    On top of all this important stuff, we also should keep in mind that date-a-mancy is in numbers axis. Up until this point I believed in that date-a-mancy is like running simulation with both units numbers, determining which would have upper hand in combat or whether they are compatible or not. However no matter how much I think about it I can not relate date-a-mancies relation with numbers to giving orders. Any thoughts?

    Date-a-manacy is also involved in leadership, which means leadership bonuses, faster leveling of nobles, and other similar Numbers. Combat rolls might get better numbers depending on the D-mancy between two units. Maybe even Luck can be tweaked.

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     Post Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:01 am 
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    I know this thread is kind of concluded, but I will probably post things here related to topics as I find them.
    At Book 3, page 217 there is a proof that every unit connects to the lord, and also there is a connection trough temple to the MK.
    Quote:
    In the contact of skin to skin, her ruler's string stood out in thinkspace, raw and pulsing and vulnerable, connected to her own, as it was to all of Transylvito's units

    Badness spell goes to minds trough temple connection:
    Quote:
    Using the all-but-invisible strands that connected it to the Temple, the spell began spooling itself homeward


    Also here it says
    Quote:
    "He (Huehue) can't 'kill himself' Charles. He'll just die with his side."

    So temples die (but not necessarily collapse) when the side ends. Will they revert back? If the city captured will the temple be still conscious? Do they need an active portal to be alive?
    I think temples mind are at the portal columns, when ruler choose a capital, that capitals' portal column become alive. BT just taught columns how to use the tower as their body.
    I think before these shenanigans, they were still alive but did not know how to move their body, but still made decisions, such as to pop warlord as a caster or not. So instead of titans reading rulers heart and fate(as stated here ), it might be the tower that does the reading.

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