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 Post subject: Real life economics talk
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:37 pm 
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Ok, I'm sick of the clogging of reaction thread. Opening this one.

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     Post Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:42 pm 
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    Wake me when page 10 of this topic is reached so that I can talk about Jillian.

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     Post Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:52 pm 
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    OneHugeTuck wrote:
    youngstormlord wrote:
    Actually, no, the government doesn't enforce monopoly on justice. I can come to collect what I paid for or what I loaned you. If you refuse to give it to me, then I can ask for help from the wider community. The rules by which I can ask wider community for that help (also known as society) are known as laws. And those rules protect you too, from me taking a gun and trying to take what you owe me by force.


    Surely you understand what monopoly means?

    Yes, if I refuse you at my door, you can go to government to get help. That is your only option. Because gov't enforces a monopoly on 'justice' (or whatever one would like to call it in this scenario).

    youngstormlord wrote:
    What is the meaning of the word steal? I define it by taking, without implicit or explicit consent of the owner, thing that belongs to someone else. By that definition, if you do not pay taxes, if you refuse to play by the rules of society and pay the debt that is implicit in living in society which are taxes, the society has the right, implicitly given by you living in that society, to take that debt by force. And you are completely free to rebel against those rules, the rebel that you are, but you must also know that society, which is a group of other human beings physiologically very similar to you, is within rights to use any before agreed means necessary to enforce the rules to which you have implicitly consented you'll obey.


    That relies upon the act of forced taxation being a valid act of the government.

    Again. Gov't can rightfully have no rights or authorities not granted by the people. And the people have no right or authority to steal and thus can grant no right or authority to steal.

    That you want government to steal from me doesn't make you telling government to steal form me not stealing.

    youngstormlord wrote:
    Now, there are two ways you can get what you want. Either you change the rules by peaceful means agreed by wider group of people before hand or you change them by force. In which case, you better have more force than the wider society whose rules you are changing. Or use it smarter, to incite fear in the others so they change the rules for you. Or you can move, if you do not like the rules.


    Ha. Yes. Government will give up it's right to tax the wealth/labor of the people. Surely you jest. Peaceful means and voting is not an option, come on.

    Which leaves only one real option: armed rebellion etc. Which the US population is a long, long way away from. As I like to say, there will be no rebellion until the cable goes out.


    I could move (just like people living in mafia controlled neighborhoods 'could' move), but I'd have to ask permission, and in fact pay to ask permission, to leave my home (Please god nobody say the cliche 'You're free to leave!'). And I'm not interested in leaving my home, so no.


    I'm sick of this. I'll try with a simplified example, maybe you'll get it then.

    Let's just say we all live on an island. Me, Sam, James, You, 20 families in all. There's a river on the island, providing clean water but occasionally flooding our fields. All 20 families live near this river, all 20 have a field near this river, all fields get flooded, some more, some less every 2 years. This is an example, we can do whatever we want with it. 20 families is maybe 100 people in total.
    Let's say we all get sick of this state of affairs and decide to build a dam and irrigation and deirrigation ditches, so we can sustain our fields in more reasonable matter. It's a sensible thing, everybody will profit from it. We all agree, it's one time expense albeit a big one, the dam is built, everyone is happy, we have a gathering near the bonfire, wine is flowing, there is dancing, maybe some kissing and love. No more flooding, no more senseless destruction of property. Our sons and daughters grow up, have families of their own, the dam is serving them well. Our grandsons grow up, the dam is still serving them well, our original 20 start slowly dying off from old age.
    Our great grandsons start growing up and our sons and daughters start dying off from the old age. The dam is still serving them all, sturdy, good. We did a good job those many years back.

    But then, when their children start to come out of age, the dam starts to fall apart. There are some cracks, not many, but there will be a disaster if it is not fixed. Except this time, some people do not agree that it is a worthy endeavour. They do not want to give anything for that dam. Not work, not materials, not money.
    Despite the fact that their father and grandfather and they themselves profited greatly from that dam, some people decide that the fact the dam is damaged is of no concern to them. That, in fact, that dam did nothing for them. And they decide they will not pay and that we, the rest of us, have no way to make them pay. And even if we fix that dam without them, they would still have all the benefits of the dam existing but it would cost them nothing. And if everyone (or just enough people) thought like those guys, the dam won't be fixed if there is no coercion involved.

    And that dam, my friend, is common good. And what I described right now is the well known economic Freerider problem. Now tell me, what is your solution to this problem?

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     Post Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:53 pm 
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    Anomynous 167 wrote:
    Wake me when page 10 of this topic is reached so that I can talk about Jillian.


    Sure thing. You'll get a pm from me. :D

    p. s. Don't forget about Contract!

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     Post Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:02 pm 
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    youngstormlord wrote:
    Anomynous 167 wrote:
    Wake me when page 10 of this topic is reached so that I can talk about Jillian.


    Sure thing. You'll get a pm from me. :D

    p. s. Don't forget about Contract!


    On this thread, it's the Social Contract (just as fictional as Balder's GK/CC contract).

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     Post Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:03 pm 
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    OneHugeTuck wrote:
    youngstormlord wrote:

    No, you didn't say that. You changed that to income taxation later. Why do you think income taxation is different from any other form of taxation? Why would it be different from sales tax for example? Inheritance tax? What makes income tax different than the rest of them?


    1. I do have some varying amount of issue with different 'forms' of taxation. But they're different types so different arguments so easier to stick with 'income' taxation. For instance, I'm not necessarily against use tax, am against inheritance tax as it's pure theft, etc.

    I have a bad habit of starting conversations with general 'taxation' term, thus the eventual refinement of the topic.


    Tax is tax. The money from all those taxes goes into the same bucket. For once, I agree. Inheritance tax should be very small, just big enough to cover the bureaucratic costs of property changing hands.

    Quote:
    youngstormlord wrote:
    I'm not a keynesian economist. Some things they pushed do not work; their theory needs refinement and change. Their solutions worked wonders in the deflation economy. Inflation needs different touch. And I do not care much about U.S. debt because I do not live there. I'd like if it was much lower, your economy would have been stronger and that's good for the world but otherwise, it's the problem of US population. You should vote for politicians to fix that and rein in the MIC.


    Not Keynesian, not US. Good to know.

    Man, you should care about the US debt. We're fucked, and when we crash we're taking everyone else with us. I hope Balder will still be able to produce Erfworld, and I hope there's still internet so I can see it.

    I do care. The last time US messed up something, the world felt it. That's why I said: And I do not care much about U.S. debt because I do not live there. I'd like if it was much lower, your economy would have been stronger and that's good for the world.

    But I can't influence that. I'm not US citizen.
    Quote:
    youngstormlord wrote:
    You should vote for politicians to fix that and rein in the MIC."


    Ha. Yes. And we should have pink unicorns to ride over rainbows. That would be awesome.

    Saying that in a serious way, there is exactly 0% chance of politicians reining in the MIC, and 0% chance of the option to vote for politicians to vote for that.

    youngstormlord wrote:
    Oh, it is very relevant to your idea that income taxation is theft. Because you seemingly have a delusion that the income you earned is fully the result of your work and that you're paid fairly for your work and a lot of things like that. Or that your income has any value without the state to give the value to your money. I have lived through one hyperinflation; value of the work you do to society can and will change depending on the situations you cannot control. Just ask people replaced by steam (and later electric) machines and automation. You are just paying back a little to society that gave you oh so very much. And paying for future pensions, when you won't be able to give anything more to society. And that's not even getting into progressive taxation.


    Nope, still irrelevant. All of that is just justification for you wanting government to steal from me. Still theft.

    That you want to and are willing to steal from fellow human beings is an entirely different topic.

    Also, your government caused your hyperinflation, due to it's manipulations of it's fiat currency and through it's enforcement of it's monopoly on currency.

    You had the chance with Bernie. And even Hillary, if she took Bernie as vice president. But Russia voted for you with their propaganda. Everything is a justification if you look at it like that. But the fact remains, you owe a lot to your country, whether you want to admit it or not. How much that is exactly, weeeell, that is altogether a different story. And paying what you owe or a part of what you owe to your fellow humans, that is not theft. Even if they take it by force. And my government did cause hyperinflation. And the government fixed it. It was not the same government that caused it which fixed it but it was the same country's government that fixed it. Government, the cause and a solution to all the problems.

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    Last edited by youngstormlord on Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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     Post Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:06 pm 
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    OneHugeTuck wrote:
    youngstormlord wrote:
    Anomynous 167 wrote:
    Wake me when page 10 of this topic is reached so that I can talk about Jillian.


    Sure thing. You'll get a pm from me. :D

    p. s. Don't forget about Contract!


    On this thread, it's the Social Contract (just as fictional as Balder's GK/CC contract).


    Everything is imaginary. The words can describe intangible concepts. Justice, Love, Peace, Honor, economy... Even that thing that you call chair. What is a chair? The concept of chair is philosophically unclear else the computers would be able to recognise chairs on sight, the same way they do with ones and zeroes. And yes, social contract gees into that category.

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     Post Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:17 pm 
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    youngstormlord wrote:
    Ok, I'm sick of the clogging of reaction thread. Opening this one.


    About goddamn booping time.

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     Post Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:17 pm 
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    youngstormlord wrote:

    I'm sick of this. I'll try with a simplified example, maybe you'll get it then.


    Hey way to ignore everything I said and then pretend like the topic is too complex for me to understand. Getting upset I still don't agree that your justifications for violence and theft are valid?

    But hey, thanks for making things simple for little ol' me.

    youngstormlord wrote:
    Let's just say we all live on an island.


    Wait...wait one frickin minute. People can get together voluntarily and better their lives through organization and labor etc? What? Without government forcing them or stealing their wealth?

    What??? That's absurd!

    In the first half, what you described was voluntarily cooperation with no coercion. The thing got built because the people involved felt it was worth their time/money/resources. And a good thing was created.


    youngstormlord wrote:
    But then, when their children start to come out of age, the dam starts to fall apart. There are some cracks, not many, but there will be a disaster if it is not fixed. Except this time, some people do not agree that it is a worthy endeavour. They do not want to give anything for that dam. Not work, not materials, not money.


    But then you go to make up a version that justifies your dark desire for force and violence and coercion to be used against innocent people.

    A. If they voluntarily don't want to keep the dam up, then the dam deteriorates. That's reality.

    B. Gov't is famous for stealing money from the population AND letting dams and bridges erode and become damaged etc. Gov't and coercion is no cure for keeping infrastructure kept up.

    C. If the dam is not worth enough for the people to keep it in working shape, then that is a measure that they don't want it and it is not of value to them.

    If they at some point they later decide that is is of value to them, they will put out the effort to fix it/keep it up. If is is valuable and they are wise, then they will put out that effort before it collapses and increases the cost of keeping it in working order.

    youngstormlord wrote:
    And that dam, my friend, is common good. And what I described right now is the well known economic Freerider problem. Now tell me, what is your solution to this problem?


    That common good is only a common good if the commons feel that is is valuable to them.

    Regardless of my solution (which revolves around getting gov't out of the business of coercing/forcing people), what gives you the right to force anybody to do anything?

    What if I decide that restoration of the free flowing river is good for the environment or the fish population in the river that our peoples have survived off of for centuries.

    And you coerce me and my fellows to keep the dam up while the fish population continues to dwindle, and then therefor the birds and other creatures that depend on the fish leave, and we continue to over-farm our fields and they perform less and less well because we prevented the near annual flooding that kept our fields rich and lush and nutritious and bountyful.

    And then we all suffer greatly. Because YOU felt you had the right to force and use violence to make people do what you wanted them to do because YOU thought it was for the common good and because YOU have no compunctions about using force and violence upon innocent people.

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     Post Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:17 pm 
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    Chiu ChunLing wrote:
    My position (such as it is) is that the current civilization (like any other) is inevitably going to collapse (for the same basic reasons all civilizations eventually collapse) and that survival when civilization collapses depends on honesty about what civilization was and what the lack of it implies. Because the survivors of the collapse will largely understand what civilization was, and they'll also be driven by an instinct to alleviate the selective pressure resulting from the absence of civilization, they'll eventually rebuild civilization, with adjustments for the factors they believe most prominently contributing to the previous collapse.

    I personally don't really care whether civilization is rebuilt. It will eventually collapse again, no matter how it's built, because the fundamental point of civilization is to alleviate the necessity for humans to be fit to survive, and that fitness is crucial to the maintenance of civilization. But as long as civilization doesn't reach a point where the collapse kills everyone, it's not like avoiding the collapse is really worth not having civilization in the interim. And to be honest, if it does get to the point where the collapse kills everyone, well that's just what happens.

    If people are going to push on the subject of where I stand politically, I can only say that I was not kidding when I mentioned that I declared my Independence and I reserve the right, as an independent nation, to engage in military reprisals against any nation (or agents of such) which attempt to violate my nations sovereign authority to self-determination. Yes, this DOES mean that I'm in a state of war with, among other nations, China. If any Chinese military forces enter my territory, I'm lighting them up.

    I don't believe that a full list of every nation which may be subject to military reprisals for their trespasses against my national sovereignty is really pertinent to this thread.

    Then I certainly hope you have enough power to successfully defend yourself and your interests and that it will not cause you to get killed. Also, I hope that your building of infrastructure that would one day replace internet is going well, just after you replace all the infrastructure that allows you to enjoy such luxuries as clothes and frying pans.

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     Post Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:22 pm 
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    OneHugeTuck wrote:
    Nope, still irrelevant. All of that is just justification for you wanting government to steal from me. Still theft.


    I know a lot of folks around here are big on their own definitions, but I think there's validity to the common usage and understanding of words. Merriam-Webster says:

    THEFT
    a : the act of stealing; specifically : the felonious taking and removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it
    b : an unlawful taking (as by embezzlement or burglary) of property

    Taxation is neither a felony nor unlawful, as defined by the very state enforcing taxation.

    Ergo, by common definition, taxation is not theft.

    Now, if you want to have a (separate) discussion on the morality and propriety of the state collecting taxes, by all means, please continue doing so.

    But I hope you're not surprised when people disagree with your assertion that taxation is theft, because that claim does not stand against the common usage and understanding of the terms.

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     Post Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:30 pm 
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    Ansan Gotti wrote:
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    OneHugeTuck wrote:
    Nope, still irrelevant. All of that is just justification for you wanting government to steal from me. Still theft.


    I know a lot of folks around here are big on their own definitions, but I think there's validity to the common usage and understanding of words. Merriam-Webster says:

    THEFT
    a : the act of stealing; specifically : the felonious taking and removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it
    b : an unlawful taking (as by embezzlement or burglary) of property

    Taxation is neither a felony nor unlawful, as defined by the very state enforcing taxation.

    Ergo, by common definition, taxation is not theft.

    Now, if you want to have a (separate) discussion on the morality and propriety of the state collecting taxes, by all means, please continue doing so.

    But I hope you're not surprised when people disagree with your assertion that taxation is theft, because that claim does not stand against the common usage and understanding of the terms.

    I thought we had agreed that taxation was armed robbery?

    edit: added a b in "robery"


    Last edited by Anomynous 167 on Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:30 pm 
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    youngstormlord wrote:
    Tax is tax. The money from all those taxes goes into the same bucket. For once, I agree. Inheritance tax should be very small, just big enough to cover the bureaucratic costs of property changing hands.


    Huh? Maybe they all go in the same bucket, but that's not the relevant part.

    Use tax is a tax only on what you use.

    Sales tax is only a tax when buying something (essentially a use tax)

    Income tax is a tax on your labor (basically)

    Inheritance tax is the state taking a portion of a deceased's estate for no other reason that that the person died and the state wants some of the wealth.


    youngstormlord wrote:

    I do care. The last time US messed up something, the world felt it. That's why I said: And I do not care much about U.S. debt because I do not live there. I'd like if it was much lower, your economy would have been stronger and that's good for the world.

    But I can't influence that. I'm not US citizen.


    And you think that US citizens can influence that? I'd laugh if that weren't so sad.


    youngstormlord wrote:
    You should vote for politicians to fix that and rein in the MIC."

    You had the chance with Bernie. And even Hillary, if she took Bernie as vice president.


    Both Bernie and Hillary (and Trump) are pro-big government pro-state pro-violence and coercion pro-vast national debt. So.....no, we didn't have a chance.

    youngstormlord wrote:
    And paying what you owe or a part of what you owe to your fellow humans, that is not theft. Even if they take it by force.


    Tell me sir. How much do I owe to bomb/invade/occupy/disrupt economically and politically the middle east as the US has been doing the last...longer than my lifetime. Presuming I start to owe my fair share at age 18.

    How much do I owe of the hundreds of billions (minimally) that go to support/back despots and dictators that ongoingly harm their populations?

    How much do I owe as my fair share of the forced sterilizations, the testing on unsuspecting populations, the domestic surveilance, the spying on our allies, the radicalizing of islamist elements, the subsidizing of the pharmaceutical and oil cartels, etc, etc etc?

    And why do you willingly pay for all that (if your government were doing that, of course?? I'm sure it has it's versions.)


    Let's stick with "what gives you the right to steal from me?"

    What gives you the right to steal from me? To take from me when we have no voluntary agreement?

    Please answer this. Make is simple so I can understand it, of course.

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     Post Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:31 pm 
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    youngstormlord wrote:
    Objectivism is the pure Randian invention. To hear an objectivist calling Rand idiot is very weird to me, almost like a Christian calling Jesus idiot. We can safely move to everything else forum as well.


    That would be strange. Who was it that did that? I must have missed it. In fact I didn't see anyone else using the term objectivist but me and I'm certainly not an objectivist. I said I think objectivism is idiocy after all.... OOOOOOH! I see! Yeah. Guess I need to break out the sarcasm tags again. /sarcasm

    All I'm saying is, maybe rely on labels less and the actual substance of an individual's arguments more. That whole "creationist approach" problem you were talking about will probably take care of itself if you do. If you're unsure of what someone means by a label they apply to themselves you can always ask for clarification... with the caveat that such labels rarely fit an individual and their views perfectly so there's always some degree of discrepancy. Civil Libertarian seems to fit best from that list, btw... for both me, and my buddies, and the people we tend to vote for.

    In any case, I'm afraid this conversation finally got on my nerves enough in the reaction thread that I'm going to need a break from it, lest I get salty for real.

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     Post Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:36 pm 
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    OneHugeTuck wrote:
    youngstormlord wrote:

    I'm sick of this. I'll try with a simplified example, maybe you'll get it then.


    Hey way to ignore everything I said and then pretend like the topic is too complex for me to understand. Getting upset I still don't agree that your justifications for violence and theft are valid?

    But hey, thanks for making things simple for little ol' me.

    youngstormlord wrote:
    Let's just say we all live on an island.


    Wait...wait one frickin minute. People can get together voluntarily and better their lives through organization and labor etc? What? Without government forcing them or stealing their wealth?

    What??? That's absurd!

    In the first half, what you described was voluntarily cooperation with no coercion. The thing got built because the people involved felt it was worth their time/money/resources. And a good thing was created.

    Guess what? 20 of us agreeing to build the dam and pool our resources? That's the government. That's the ad-hoc body doing the governing. It's slightly more democratic than the other sorts of bodies, because it is direct democracy but that's the government. And you can be damn sure there would be a single or just a few persons leading the building of the dam itself, organizing others and making sure right things are at the right places. And this is a small island. Imagine if it was more than 100 people. No man rules alone. No one can do everything alone.
    Quote:
    youngstormlord wrote:
    But then, when their children start to come out of age, the dam starts to fall apart. There are some cracks, not many, but there will be a disaster if it is not fixed. Except this time, some people do not agree that it is a worthy endeavour. They do not want to give anything for that dam. Not work, not materials, not money.


    But then you go to make up a version that justifies your dark desire for force and violence and coercion to be used against innocent people.

    A. If they voluntarily don't want to keep the dam up, then the dam deteriorates. That's reality.

    B. Gov't is famous for stealing money from the population AND letting dams and bridges erode and become damaged etc. Gov't and coercion is no cure for keeping infrastructure kept up.

    C. If the dam is not worth enough for the people to keep it in working shape, then that is a measure that they don't want it and it is not of value to them.

    If they at some point they later decide that is is of value to them, they will put out the effort to fix it/keep it up. If is is valuable and they are wise, then they will put out that effort before it collapses and increases the cost of keeping it in working order.

    First of all, not everyone is wise. Some people are damn fools. A: yes, the dam deteriorates. And the majority wants to stop the dam from deteriorating and wants to fix it. But maybe they cannot do it without those who do not want to do it. Maybe some people do not want to do it now, but later when it is too late.
    B. I agree. That's why you should control the government and vote in people that would do the things that are best for you. Or become the government yourself, make the people vote for you.
    Do all the right things.

    C. True, some people do not see the value in the dam. Until it cracks, water floods their fields and maybe kills them in the process. Them and lots of people who actually saw the value in the dam but couldn't do anything because of people who didn't see value in the dam and are now dead.
    Quote:
    youngstormlord wrote:
    And that dam, my friend, is common good. And what I described right now is the well known economic Freerider problem. Now tell me, what is your solution to this problem?


    That common good is only a common good if the commons feel that is is valuable to them.

    Regardless of my solution (which revolves around getting gov't out of the business of coercing/forcing people), what gives you the right to force anybody to do anything?

    What if I decide that restoration of the free flowing river is good for the environment or the fish population in the river that our peoples have survived off of for centuries.

    And you coerce me and my fellows to keep the dam up while the fish population continues to dwindle, and then therefor the birds and other creatures that depend on the fish leave, and we continue to over-farm our fields and they perform less and less well because we prevented the near annual flooding that kept our fields rich and lush and nutritious and bountyful.

    And then we all suffer greatly. Because YOU felt you had the right to force and use violence to make people do what you wanted them to do because YOU thought it was for the common good and because YOU have no compunctions about using force and violence upon innocent people.

    And that's why you put it to vote. And try your best for your proposal to win. If your proposal has merit, then it wins. We evacuate fields and, in orderly fashion, return the nature how it was. And the losers do not have the right to complain because they lost fair and square and actually have to pay and help in the effort they disagreed with. That's what the point of decisions and laws is. And taxation. And fairness.

    But this is dam in our example. What about sanitation? What about sewage? There were people who saw nothing wrong in rivers of shit being on the street. There were people who saw nothing wrong in putting urine and crap into the same rivers they took their drinking water from. And you can be damn sure they fought the building of things that would fix those problems. Because they didn't see them as problems. And if there was no coercion, those problems would have went unsolved.

    Btw, how would you solve the Freerider problem? How would you provide common goods, goods that all the people would profit from but some fight against?

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    Last edited by youngstormlord on Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:37 pm 
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    Anomynous 167 wrote:
    Ansan Gotti wrote:
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    OneHugeTuck wrote:
    Nope, still irrelevant. All of that is just justification for you wanting government to steal from me. Still theft.


    I know a lot of folks around here are big on their own definitions, but I think there's validity to the common usage and understanding of words. Merriam-Webster says:

    THEFT
    a : the act of stealing; specifically : the felonious taking and removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it
    b : an unlawful taking (as by embezzlement or burglary) of property

    Taxation is neither a felony nor unlawful, as defined by the very state enforcing taxation.

    Ergo, by common definition, taxation is not theft.

    Now, if you want to have a (separate) discussion on the morality and propriety of the state collecting taxes, by all means, please continue doing so.

    But I hope you're not surprised when people disagree with your assertion that taxation is theft, because that claim does not stand against the common usage and understanding of the terms.

    I thought we had agreed that taxation was armed robery?


    A. I never said that.

    B. Even if I did (though I would because it is), people that like to steal from people (like youngstormlord) justify it with 'but it's legal so it's not really robbery'.

    If gov't made a law that genocide was legal, and started killing off, say <insert any minority or sub minority>, and I said that was genocide, would you all then argue that it's not genocide because the government calls it 'cleansing' and that's legal so not a problem?

    Are you (whoever you may be making that argument) REALLY going to argue that genocide isn't genocide if the gov't calls it something else?

    You're arguing that theft isn't theft because gov't calls it something else. If you say you wouldn't abide genocide even if gov't called it something else, what's different between the two?

    I'm curious for your answers.


    Please answer this question: What right or authority do you have to take anything from your neighbor, or a guy living 100 miles away, or 1,000 miles away?

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     Post Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:39 pm 
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    youngstormlord wrote:
    And yes, social contract gees into that category.


    Yes, the 'social contract' is imaginary and non-existant, and is not a binding documentary nor oral agreement (because it's not a contract).

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     Post Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:40 pm 
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    OneHugeTuck wrote:
    If gov't made a law that genocide was legal, and started killing off, say <insert any minority or sub minority>, and I said that was genocide, would you all then argue that it's not genocide because the government calls it 'cleansing' and that's legal so not a problem?

    Are you (whoever you may be making that argument) REALLY going to argue that genocide isn't genocide if the gov't calls it something else?

    You're arguing that theft isn't theft because gov't calls it something else. If you say you wouldn't abide genocide even if gov't called it something else, what's different between the two?

    I'm curious for your answers.


    genocide: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group.

    You will note that there is no mention of law in that definition. So yes, genocide is still genocide if it is carried out by a state (as is most often the case, sadly).

    In contrast, theft is a legal concept that is defined by, well, the law.

    I know this might seem like petty semantics, but my point is that usage and understanding of terms can be important with respect to a discussion, and mutual understanding.

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     Post Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:50 pm 
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    OneHugeTuck wrote:

    A. I never said that.

    B. Even if I did (though I would because it is), people that like to steal from people (like youngstormlord) justify it with 'but it's legal so it's not really robbery'.

    If gov't made a law that genocide was legal, and started killing off, say <insert any minority or sub minority>, and I said that was genocide, would you all then argue that it's not genocide because the government calls it 'cleansing' and that's legal so not a problem?

    Are you (whoever you may be making that argument) REALLY going to argue that genocide isn't genocide if the gov't calls it something else?

    You're arguing that theft isn't theft because gov't calls it something else. If you say you wouldn't abide genocide even if gov't called it something else, what's different between the two?

    I'm curious for your answers.


    Please answer this question: What right or authority do you have to take anything from your neighbor, or a guy living 100 miles away, or 1,000 miles away?

    Did we finally reach the Godwin's law? No. So close ;)

    Lawful yes. Moral - no. And those who voted it in or obeyed that law would be tried be even greater majority. Unless they win. And victors write history. You feel that you have rights. Rights are a social construct. Even the right to bodily autonomy. Even what you call the freedom of movement. Given to you by the constitution, taken from you when police takes you into custody.

    And the answer to that question is: Authority of the state and monopoly of force inherent in that authority, from which that authority stems. That's what gives me the right. That's what gives you the right too. Morality doesn't get into it at all. So, are we arguing that taxes are moral or are we arguing that taxes are legal? Or that taxes should be abolished because they are immoral?

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     Post Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:52 pm 
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    youngstormlord wrote:
    Guess what? 20 of us agreeing to build the dam and pool our resources? That's the government.


    No, that's voluntary cooperation.

    youngstormlord wrote:
    And you can be damn sure there would be a single or just a few persons leading the building of the dam itself, organizing others and making sure right things are at the right places.


    Of course there would be. People are capable of organizing themselves voluntarily.

    youngstormlord wrote:
    And this is a small island. Imagine if it was more than 100 people. No man rules alone. No one can do everything alone.


    Nobody here has stated that one can do everything alone. Moot point.

    youngstormlord wrote:
    First of all, not everyone is wise. Some people are damn fools.


    So...thus you feel justified to use violence/force/coercion against people. Ok.

    You don't have any moral issues with using force/coercion against people?

    youngstormlord wrote:
    B. I agree. That's why you should control the government and vote in people that would do the things that are best for you. Or become the government yourself, make the people vote for you.


    So.....do you live under a fallacy that government, let's say the US government, can be controlled?

    Do you also live under a fallacy that the US government represents the will of the people? That gov't is in place for the people by the people?

    youngstormlord wrote:
    And taxation. And fairness.


    Pick one.

    youngstormlord wrote:
    Btw, how would you solve the Freerider problem?


    How do you solve it now? What's the welfare statistics in your country? How many producers pay for non-producers in your country?

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