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 Post Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:28 pm 
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Why isn't ranged and flying allowed? I want my Great Wyrms fire breath to be a ranged attack, and they are big flying dragons. But the fire breath cannot be a ranged attack unless the unit is ranged (which is weird, cause that implies that all breath attacks are automatically used in melee combat).

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     Post Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:37 pm 
    Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter Year of the Dwagon Supporter This user is a Tool! Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter Has collected at least one unit
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    Sir Shadow wrote:

    Also, I’m going to make an executive decision that no unit may have both ranged and flying specials.


    GM ruling

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     Post Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:00 am 
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    And the extra cost for flying. Don't forget to add that.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:21 am 
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    CroverusRaven wrote:
    Why isn't ranged and flying allowed? I want my Great Wyrms fire breath to be a ranged attack, and they are big flying dragons. But the fire breath cannot be a ranged attack unless the unit is ranged (which is weird, cause that implies that all breath attacks are automatically used in melee combat).


    It really just implies that the range on a blast of fire isn't as long as that of an arrow or bullet, which makes perfect sense. Real life flamethrowers can't reach nearly that far, so you couldn't really use one to shoot a plane or bird (a Flying enemy), which is one of the basic functions of the Ranged trait. I mean, you probably couldn't use a bow to shoot down a plane either (unless it was low-flying), but you could maybe shoot a bird if you had good aim. Depending on the gun and stuff I don't understand, bullets might be able to shoot the plane too (no idea how effective it would be), and would also be able to hit the bird assuming you had good aim.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:39 am 
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    Ok, so what is the ruling on having Flying and a breath weapon? Do I still have to drop down into melee combat to use it? My Special D unit was essentially supposed to duplicate the Red Dwagon from erfworld, who can clearly use their flame breathe on units on the ground without them retaliating unless they shoot at the dwagon as archers.

    Also since this is a world of magic and crazyness, why can;t the fluff be a fire breathing artillery lizard that spits solid bullet of flame not be a plausible creature? I just want a ruling as to WHY the decision was made.

    If there si no reasoning about it I'll keep the ranged and breathe weapon and drop the flying and spend the point on something else.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:23 am 
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    The reasoning is presumably that the combination of flying (able to only be hit by ranged/flying unless initiating a melee attack) with no need to do melee attacks could strongly unbalance the game if a side decides not to invest heavily in ranged/flying units. And that's on top of the other advantages of flying such as ignoring movement penalties and such. What is allowed is a flying mount with a ranged rider because that means you're having to spend quite a few more points to achieve it (2 extra for mount, 2 extra for rider, and 2 total units eating up income as opposed to only 1).

    Bottom line though is that the person running the game said you can't do it. Who knows, maybe we'll be able to pick up natural allies like the archons that have both abilities, but like I said, I think that there was a fear that someone would grab a flying/ranged unit and just pump it out almost exclusively, leaving other sides forced to get flying or ranged units almost exclusively themselves to counter it. Also, as an aside, I'm not so sure that dwagons are ranged units. They always get very close to their targets before they start hitting them with breath weapons, and their other attacks (bites and claws and such) are obviously not ranged. After all, ranged implies that you can hit something from another hex, which we've seen dwagons can't do with their breath attacks, so yeah, fairly sure they're actually melee in all regards based on what we've seen in the comics.

    edit: Oh, totally misread your post. Nothing has been stated about a flying/breath weapon combo, but I'd guess you'd need to engage melee to use it, especially since the fire one is basically just a boost to your combat stat. On the bright side, as the attacker you could go in, fight for a round in melee, then retreat, generating results like we see in book 1.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 6:01 am 
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    I would like the DM to give me the reason why he banned it, that is all. If a side chooses to not have any specials with ranged or flying, that is their decision.

    In any event, reading the creation rules, the Flying Special is only 2 points for Special units. So if I cannot have Flying and Ranged, then I will remove Flying and give them Desert Capable.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:22 am 
    Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter Year of the Dwagon Supporter This user is a Tool! Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter Has collected at least one unit
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    Also updated in this thread, flying actually costs 4 points

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     Post Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 10:13 am 
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    @CroverusRaven:
    Taikei was completely correct on the ruling. A flying unit cannot have ranged because the combination is too powerful for the low cost. Breath Weapons are not ranged attacks and cannot be used across 'boundaries' like the boundary between ground and air. The dwagon must engage in melee to fight a ground target. The only dwagon we ever see assaulting ground from the air is the yellow dwagon with their battlecrap siege attack.

    Btw, Archons do not have the ranged special. We never see them bombarding the ground in any fashion (remember when they couldn't aid Ansom with his fight against Wanda and the uncroaked?) and all their laser-like effects are their use of their simple shockmancy.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:12 pm 
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    Very well. I will drop Flight and add Desert Capable to the Great Wyrm.

    I'm sorry if I was sounding like I was arguing, I just wanted to hear from the DM.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:50 pm 
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    Hehe wasn't sure about the ranged attacks on the archons. Figured it may have just been magic, but it might have been a ranged attack that took the form of magic but didn't use juice. Guess that means we've never seen anything with both ranged and flight in the comic either. And heck, the dwagons are enough trouble without it anyway.

    Just reread that part, and it looks like even the archon's magic can't cross boundries. It is important to remember that ranged as we think of it, and ranged as according to erfworld are two very different things. Like if a blunderbuss were to exist in erfworld, it may very well be a melee weapon because of how short its range is.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:48 pm 
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    I'm guessing the answer is 'no' but since dollamancy seems to include the fabrication special, does that mean specials with the simple mancy special in dollamancy would get fabrication for free? Really needed a better naming system for the special ABCD and special abilities :P

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     Post Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:04 pm 
    E is for Erfworld Supporter Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter This user was a Tool before it was cool This user is a Tool! Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter
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    Revised, approval check pending

    Side Name: Aetheria
    Ruler: Lord Maltivus Hassen (Non-royal)
    Favored Terrain: Field/Plains
    Side Bonus: Favored of the Titans (Flying, +7 move)
    Insignia: Purple rose with green feather overlaying the stem diagonally
    Colors: Yellow with blue, red, and green highlights.

    Note: Fluff still upcoming. All units are knight class. This side has no beasts.


    Stabber: Incisar 5/5/2/6


    Piker: Molaran 7/4/4/6


    Archer: Deepstriker 2/10/0/6 Ranged (-3 hp, +2 combat)


    Scout: Outbounder 3/0/0/20, Flying


    Knight: Skypiercer 10/6/4/12, Flying, Rider


    Special A: Alpharian 5/2/2/12 Flying, Leadership, Frightening, Speed Boost.


    Special B: Hunterseeker 8/2/3/12 Flying, Limited Findamancy, Speed Boost


    Special C Truebinder 9/7/2/16 Flying, Limited Thinkamancy, Capture Bonus (+10), Speed Boost x2 (-3 HP, -1 Defense, +3 combat)


    Special D: Kaernifex 16/3/7/36 Flying, Limited Weirdomancy, Limited Turnamancy, Speed Boost+ x2 (-3 combat, +3 defense)

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    Last edited by Kaed on Tue Jun 11, 2013 6:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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     Post Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:38 pm 
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    Your archer seems to be 1 point over. Base 5/5/0/5 adjusted to 2/7/0/5, then you have 2/10/1/6 which is 0/3/1/1 points.
    Your Special A only has 5 hits, but should have 8, and is also 1 point over. Flying 4 + leadership 4 + frightening 3 + speed boost 2 = 13 points of 12 available.
    Your Special B is 1 point over. Flying 4 + limited findamancy 6 + speed boost 2 + 1 extra defense = 13 points of 12 available
    Your Special C has only 6 hits, but should have 9 (base 12, adjusted -3 = 9), and is also 1 point over. Flying 4 + limited thinkamancy 6 + capture bonus twice 4 + speed boost twice 4 + 1 to combat = 19 of 18 available.
    Your Special D has only 10 hits, but should have 16 and is 6 points over cost. Flying 4 + limited weirdomancy 6 + limited turnamancy 6 + speed boost + twice 8 + 5 defense + 1 move + 2 combat = 32 of 26 available.

    Hope you don't mind me looking over your unit list, I'm not sure if we're supposed to be or not, but I figure as we're posting them and not IMing them, they aren't supposed to be super secret.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:52 pm 
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    -3 Hits would actually equal -4.5 Hits, since hits are at a ratio of 1 point = 1.5 Hits.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:04 pm 
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    Given that he took off 3 hits and only gave himself 2 points of stats to compensate, I think he meant 3 hits which is 2 points, as opposed to 3 points worth of hits.

    Edit: Speaking of which, what happens with half a hit? Does it get rounded down, up, or left as half a hit, which would be kinda like rounding up.


    Last edited by Taikei no Yuurei on Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:07 pm 
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    Oh, I get it now. I thought it was just a mathamancy error.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:24 pm 
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    I am a Master Mathamancer, my Mathamancy is rarely wrong ;)

    Edit: Actually I'm an Adept, near Master, with a Mathamancy magic item, but close enough.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 6:06 pm 
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    Everything is fixed now, had some carry over from the old build.

    And the specials are not one over, flying costs 3 on knight class. DM ruling.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 6:28 pm 
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    @AlmondsAndRain
    It looks like your Battlesheep is over 2 points, Pegaphant is over 1 point, and Whino is over 2 points.

    @Taikei
    It gets rounded down.


    Also, what's with all the non-royal sides? Nobody wants to just better than everyone else?

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