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 Post subject: Re: Equilateratoria
 Post Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:23 am 
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Werebiscuit wrote:
And your 3/3/6 doesn't work as you can only bank one action unless I'm mistaken... the 4th move through 2 zones would require 2 banked actions.

Correct, you cannot bank more than one action, however you can have actions be partially completed. Being only 1 action into a move doesn't count as "banking 2" it just means your first 2 actions for the next turn are predetermined. It's a sort of exception he outline earlier.

But yes everything else you're pointing out is completely valid and exactly what I was getting at in my complaints, which were as usual met with stubbornness and actually making me MORE frustrated about the rules than I even was in the first place.

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     Post subject: Re: Equilateratoria
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:37 am 
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    I think that the point that Marbit is making is:

    As a miner or forester you have to have a resource (stone or wood) to get for exp. These resources will get harder to get over time. But as a scout after we have opened up a few more spaces it will be easy as you can just walk from space A that you are in to Space B (previously revealed now has fog of war) and get exp, then move from B to C with the last action. The next turn you finish going to C then move to A or D and just cycle between spaces over and over and you can rack up exp. A warrior can train (for lower exp) or has to fight. I think where we are at now we have not gotten far, but can over time.

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     Post subject: Re: Equilateratoria
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:45 am 
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    0beron wrote:
    Werebiscuit wrote:
    And your 3/3/6 doesn't work as you can only bank one action unless I'm mistaken... the 4th move through 2 zones would require 2 banked actions.

    Correct, you cannot bank more than one action, however you can have actions be partially completed. Being only 1 action into a move doesn't count as "banking 2" it just means your first 2 actions for the next turn are predetermined. It's a sort of exception he outline earlier.


    Still not quite getting this...at what point can you have spent 5 actions and still be able to bank an action ?

    1st move spend 3 move and spend 1 more by committing next 2 actions of next turn
    next turn spend 2 move and move next 2 but commiting 1 from turn 3...I'm getting it so far yes ?
    does that mean in turn 3 I can move in and have 3 attacks ? instead of moving on ?

    If so I suggest we move back an angle and all charge through to the earth orb angle, giving us 3 surprise attacks on each orb ! Instead of attacking this turn.


    Last edited by Werebiscuit on Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Equilateratoria
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:47 am 
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    Were, I love the idea. We should spend 2 actions in the current spot, then use 2 actions to move. Then we will use 1 more next turn and be in.

    Is everyone on board?

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     Post subject: Re: Equilateratoria
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:50 am 
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    BrimStone wrote:
    Were, I love the idea. We should spend 2 actions in the current spot, then use 2 actions to move. Then we will use 1 more next turn and be in.

    Is everyone on board?

    Indeed. We can use the 2 actions to weaponise everyone !

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     Post subject: Re: Equilateratoria
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:57 am 
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    Combat XP & XP Allocation

    Effective immediately, Combat XP can be gained by units with no Military skills.
    Every combat action counts as 1 action towards a skill of the player's choice.
    Combat actions for military skills still count as 2 xp.
    Players that have 2 military or 2 non-military skills must choose which skill they will allocate the XP towards each turn.
    You cannot change this allocation in the middle of a turn.
    Players that have 1 military and 1 non-military will always have Combat XP applied to the military class.


    Characters with 2 Military Skills
    0beron : "Arthemy" the Mystic 2 / Scout
    ETheBoyce : "Texas" the Warrior 2 / Scout
    BrimStone: "Guy the Intrepid" the Warrior / Mystic

    Characters with 2 Non-Military Skills
    WhirdCheese : "George" the Leatherworker / Farmer 2
    Swodaems : "Dod" the Miner 2 / Stonemason 2
    turbler: "Jordan" the Leatherworker / Forester 3 / Shepherd 0
    Intocabille_CZ: "Pace" the Miner / Metallurgist

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     Post subject: Re: Equilateratoria
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:13 am 
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    Marbit, until I hit level 3 Warrior all combat EXP will go to Warrior. I will advise you when to change, is that ok?

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     Post subject: Re: Equilateratoria
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:15 am 
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    0beron wrote:
    But yes everything else you're pointing out is completely valid and exactly what I was getting at in my complaints, which were as usual met with stubbornness and actually making me MORE frustrated about the rules than I even was in the first place.
    Please note that I try not to be stubborn just for the sake of stubbornness. However, I won't change rules until I'm convinced that the change is for the better, or that there is a significant imbalance that needs to be addressed. The fact that scouts can't spend 4 actions leveling every round isn't a significant imbalance unless *every* other skill tree can, and that's clearly not the case. Leatherworkers and metallugists are more difficult to level than scouts, so unless I plan on making it far easier for those skill trees to level, I'm going to require much more convincing that scouts are broken.

    If this game frustrates you more than you enjoy it, I certainly wouldn't blame you for walking away. It's supposed to be fun for everyone involved. But please don't read my stubbornness as malicious - I'm not trying to piss people off. In retrospect, if I'd required 4 actions instead of 3 to enter a new zone, we might not even be having this conversation. Based on this, I think we should make using the Lookout Tower require 4 actions instead of 3; this will make it equivalent to the other training structures (except that it also has some utility).

    Scouts currently have combat, exploration, and lookout as methods of gaining XP - that's 3x more than most non-military skill trees get. If you still think that I'm treating scouts unfairly, please continue to plead your case.

    BrimStone wrote:
    Marbit, until I hit level 3 Warrior all combat EXP will go to Warrior. I will advise you when to change, is that ok?
    Noted.

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     Post subject: Re: Equilateratoria
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:17 am 
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    Werebiscuit wrote:
    If so I suggest we move back an angle and all charge through to the earth orb angle, giving us 3 surprise attacks on each orb ! Instead of attacking this turn.
    Once a unit is interrupted and attacked, they default all their remaining actions to defending themselves. It doesn't matter whether you enter with 1 action remaining or 3. Also, surprise rounds only apply to attackers that are hidden - if you cross the border, they can see you coming, and respond immediately.

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     Post subject: Re: Equilateratoria
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:24 am 
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    But Marbit, if we enter with 3 actions rather then 1 we can make 3 attacks the first round. It is not surprise, but more the ability to attack 3 times each instead of 1 before they get to attack us en masse.

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     Post subject: Re: Equilateratoria
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:30 am 
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    BrimStone wrote:
    But Marbit, if we enter with 3 actions rather then 1 we can make 3 attacks the first round. It is not surprise, but more the ability to attack 3 times each instead of 1 before they get to attack us en masse.
    All actions occur roughly simultaneously. If you spend 1 round coming in, they'll have spent 1 round doing orb stuff. You attack with your 2nd - 4th actions, they'll respond with their 2nd-4th actions.

    There won't be any circumstances in which one side gets to attack more than once without the other side being allowed to respond (short of the entire side being calmed / paralyzed). This is true for both your side and your opponents.

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     Post subject: Re: Equilateratoria
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:31 am 
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    Ahhh I get it.

    So Were given this I think we should just go in this round as originally planned.

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     Post subject: Re: Equilateratoria
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:34 am 
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    Still missing the point:
    MarbitChow wrote:
    Scouts currently have:
    • combat (which they suck at)
    • exploration (which relies on a resource that other players can, even unintentionally, interfere with)
    • and lookout (which requires a structure, so we need help to build it, and it's just about the bottom of everyone's priority list)
    ...as methods of gaining XP

    Now while in isolation of everything else in the game, they may seem only marginally sub-par, when you put all this in actual context of the game, you've downright screwed them. Our side is backed into a corner with only 2 ways out, and both ways are blocked by SIGNIFICANT forces. Combine that with the extremely high resource cost of healing, and you have Scouts in a position that requires them to chose between:
    • Scouting and dying in combat
    • Scouting, escaping by the skin of their teeth, then starving to death alone
    • or not scouting at all, and praying they get combat XP.
    So yes, pardon me for interpreting "Oh you silly, you're not leveling because you're not trying, tehehe :D" as malice.

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     Post subject: Re: Equilateratoria
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:52 am 
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    0beron wrote:
    So yes, pardon me for interpreting "Oh you silly, you're not leveling because you're not trying, tehehe :D" as malice.
    If you feel like I'm intentionally screwing scouts, I'll let you immediately swap scout out for any other skill tree, and convert the scout XP you've accumulated to equivalent XP under that new tree.

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     Post subject: Re: Equilateratoria
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:57 am 
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    MarbitChow wrote:
    Based on this, I think we should make using the Lookout Tower require 4 actions instead of 3; this will make it equivalent to the other training structures (except that it also has some utility).

    Scouts currently have combat, exploration, and lookout as methods of gaining XP - that's 3x more than most non-military skill trees get. If you still think that I'm treating scouts unfairly, please continue to plead your case.


    Marbit, first off I'm going to say that I don't feel screwed over. I'm not going to plead the scout case even if I do feel the imbalance is already showing. All I want to do is ensure that if the lookout tower costs 4 actions it gives 4 training xp...even if it does not reveal any fog-of-war. Otherwise it is not like any other training structure. Hopefully that will make you see the imbalance. It could be possible under the current proto-rules to spend 3 actions in it and not gain any xp at all.

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     Post subject: Re: Equilateratoria
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:58 am 
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    MarbitChow wrote:
    If you feel like I'm intentionally screwing scouts, I'll let you immediately swap scout out for any other skill tree, and convert the scout XP you've accumulated to equivalent XP under that new tree.

    Well that's kinda the problem, because 1) we need scouts and 2) I like the concept you described for them. I'm just not seeing it materialize yet, so I'm hoping that their later benefits compensate for the hard-mode start they're stuck with. Cus honestly even Forage is a bit weak given that it can fail even in peaceful zones, and the whole point of doing their job is to out on their own where food may not be.

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     Post subject: Re: Equilateratoria
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:08 pm 
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    Werebiscuit wrote:
    All I want to do is ensure that if the lookout tower costs 4 actions it gives 4 training xp...even if it does not reveal any fog-of-war.
    It will. It costs significantly more than other structures to build, so I have no qualms making it a training structure with significant usefulness.

    0beron wrote:
    Well that's kinda the problem, because 1) we need scouts and 2) I like the concept you described for them. I'm just not seeing it materialize yet, so I'm hoping that their later benefits compensate for the hard-mode start they're stuck with. Cus honestly even Forage is a bit weak given that it can fail even in peaceful zones, and the whole point of doing their job is to out on their own where food may not be.
    I do see your points. I also want the game to be fun, and you're right - the starting Scout ability does seem underpowered.

    What do you think about the following -

    Forage : Acts as an Eat action, but does not require any food resource. Satisfies the requirement to eat each turn. Restores 1 Hit each use. Can be used in place of the free eat action. Cannot be used while in combat.

    This would let the scout explore more freely without ever worrying about starvation. And this would count as towards scout XP, but only if you're already wounded. (There's no point in foraging otherwise.)

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     Post subject: Re: Equilateratoria
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:20 pm 
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    MarbitChow wrote:
    What do you think about the following -
    Forage : Acts as an Eat action, but does not require any food resource. Satisfies the requirement to eat each turn. Restores 1 Hit each use. Can be used in place of the free eat action. Cannot be used while in combat.
    This would let the scout explore more freely without ever worrying about starvation. And this would count as towards scout XP, but only if you're already wounded. (There's no point in foraging otherwise.)

    That is absolutely perfect! Let me make sure I'm reading correctly: We can Forage as an Action, gaining 1 HP and some XP. We can Forage with the free action also, gaining 1 HP and some XP if we are already injured, but if not then we simply don't starve. Is that a correct interpretation?

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     Post subject: Re: Equilateratoria
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:29 pm 
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    0beron wrote:
    That is absolutely perfect! Let me make sure I'm reading correctly: We can Forage as an Action, gaining 1 HP and some XP. We can Forage with the free action also, gaining 1 HP and some XP if we are already injured, but if not then we simply don't starve. Is that a correct interpretation?
    Almost. You can't ever get XP from free actions. If you're not wounded, you can choose to spend a regular action to forage (and simply not use your free eat that turn) once, satisfying your need to eat, and gain 1 xp. If you ARE wounded, you can forage until you're fully healed. You can even alternate fast & 3x forage, gaining 3 xp every 2 turns. Note that you won't be able to use forage to help feed or restore anyone else.

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     Post subject: Re: Equilateratoria
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:33 pm 
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    Ok, a lil bummed I can't get the free action XP since it's our specialty, but it's still a nice improvement so I feel on par with everyone else now in terms of being able to do my job.

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