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 Post Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 6:55 pm 
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Is it just me or did Wanda just ROFLPWNT Olive with that?

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I was hoping we could debate the meaning of "agent" in the the Declaration of Non-Aggression again. It totally hasn't been argued to death already.

You know... at this point you boops aren't beating dead horses any more. You're making glue.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:26 pm 
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    Olive just lost The Game.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:53 pm 
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    Lamech wrote:
    The obvious excuse here is that if she turns it will disband, among other people, Orwell.


    Why would he? He's a prisoner, so he shouldn't be affected. If that were true the same thing would happen if they croaked her and they weren't concerned about it.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 8:10 pm 
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    0beron wrote:
    Lamech wrote:
    The obvious excuse here is that if she turns it will disband, among other people, Orwell. Even the units in neutral cities will be trivial to kill and murder when frozen.

    Ah good point. I believe that Orwell turned back though? Even so, it would be a compelling argument...if she knew about FAQ's inequality. Don't forget that the Court was prepared to leave everyone but the Casters to die. I'd hazard a guess that (being unit's who's sole purpose IS combat, unlike casters) all the basic infantry are acceptable losses that have no place in the world anyway.

    Casters have use in combat and others have use in non-combat... I think logic was "we have no choice but to run, we save what we can of FAQ".

    If nothing else this simplifies into a request for Olive to end turn so she can't surprise attack till trial is over when her new "master" requests it.

    As well, does Olive have ability to make an "heir"? (Someone left who she trusts, shmucker and ability to promote them?) If Olive could create an heir she might have a mutually assured destruction option... if you kill me, my side wipes out you! Then becomes game of how loyal her heir and side really is and how good FAQ is at diplomacy. Olive probably has "charm" ability to seduce a few warlords to be loyal servants. (A paranoid Olive may have neglected to do so for similar reason Charlie has no trusted warlords)

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     Post Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:07 pm 
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    This is how Predictamancy is supposed to be used. Wanda knows that Olive won't turn because that would end Haffaton as a side and it would mean that Jillian cannot croak the ruler of Haffaton, therefore Wanda is 100% certain that Olive will choose not to turn and try to talk her way out of it.

    But isn't Wanda worried that some terrible punishment will rain down upon her for doing something that goes against Fate? Is this really what she would call the Easy Way? She seems to be trying to get Olive to turn which would defeat Fate. Perhaps Wanda thinks she has nothing to lose, but if she really believed in the Easy Way, she would just relax and assume that Olive was going to lose the trial without any dangerous Fate-defying maneuvers.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:15 pm 
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    Lamech wrote:
    The only way Olive can turn is if FAQ takes control of all of Haffaton's holdings. Which quite frankly can only be defended by Olive's power and evil garden.


    Not necessarily. We are not sure what role the Olive garden plays exactly. I would assume it has less to do with maintaining the large size of the side, and more to do with helping to expand the side, and Faq has no interest in expansion. Furtharmore, Haffaton is only difficult to maintain because of its large size; if Faq wanted to, they could raze half the cities pull the troops back and create a very large and powerful, but more manageable side.

    drachefly wrote:
    I wonder just how many living, upkeep-needing, moral-weight-bearing units Haffaton has? An ordinary number for a side, but stretched thin... or actually fewer than usual?

    Anyway, what happens next really depends on rules we don't know, in the obvious ways, so I'm just going to wait for it to happen.


    I would assume they would have A LOT more units than any ordinary size, but the cities may bring about diminishing returns and thus they end up needing to restrict themselves to having fewer units relative to their size to keep functioning. For instance an ordinary side might be 10 cities with 10,000 units (1000 units per city), while Haffaton might have 70 cities, but instead of having 70,000 units they may only have 45,500 units (650 units per city)...

    We know that Haffaton has many weak and poorly defended city within it's borders, however most sides see haffaton as untouchable. The only way Haffaton could maintain that image is if they put up a strong front; meaning having all the cities along their border well defended with troops... They don't have enough troops to protect every city like ordinary sides do, so they instead put all their strength on the border. Not to mention that Haffaton DOES have the forces to launch an offensive against other sides, but again these are forces sitting on the border.


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    This is how Predictamancy is supposed to be used. Wanda knows that Olive won't turn because that would end Haffaton as a side and it would mean that Jillian cannot croak the ruler of Haffaton, therefore Wanda is 100% certain that Olive will choose not to turn and try to talk her way out of it.

    But isn't Wanda worried that some terrible punishment will rain down upon her for doing something that goes against Fate? Is this really what she would call the Easy Way? She seems to be trying to get Olive to turn which would defeat Fate. Perhaps Wanda thinks she has nothing to lose, but if she really believed in the Easy Way, she would just relax and assume that Olive was going to lose the trial without any dangerous Fate-defying maneuvers.


    Well not exactly... i mean terrible punishment would only (maybe) occur if Olive agreed to turn. Wanda is basically bluffing; she knows fate won't allow olive to turn and thus knows this is the good way to get olive to show her true colors to Faq. Because of fate, Wanda probably does not think its even possible for Olive to accept the offer

    But you also have to remember, there is no telling how fate can play out; without wanda's crafty prosecution, Olive might escape this... In a sense, this would be Faq failing to take the easy way since they refused to let Jillian croak her. Olive is STILL destined to be croaked by jillian, but now she might get a chance to do some damage to Faq before Jillian gets her chance to end her.

    in a way, you could say that Wanda is not trying to risk defying fate, but instead sees it as the only way to try and make sure that Faq does not attempt defy fate. Faq has already been taking the hard route by going through with this trial instead of just letting Jillian fulfill her prediction

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    Last edited by MonteCristo on Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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     Post Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:20 pm 
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    The art was rushed to publish as soon as Xin could get it to me, and I did not notice the outfit error. Corrected version is up.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:56 pm 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    This is how Predictamancy is supposed to be used. Wanda knows that Olive won't turn because that would end Haffaton as a side and it would mean that Jillian cannot croak the ruler of Haffaton, therefore Wanda is 100% certain that Olive will choose not to turn and try to talk her way out of it.

    But isn't Wanda worried that some terrible punishment will rain down upon her for doing something that goes against Fate? Is this really what she would call the Easy Way? She seems to be trying to get Olive to turn which would defeat Fate. Perhaps Wanda thinks she has nothing to lose, but if she really believed in the Easy Way, she would just relax and assume that Olive was going to lose the trial without any dangerous Fate-defying maneuvers.

    She isn't trying to prevent fate. She knows Olive better than anyone else in attendance. She may be counting on Olive being unwilling, or actually unable, to turn. We know Olive's chief loyalty is to herself. What if that were actually binding? Because she isn't sincere, she may be incapable of turning.

    Also, consider this. Even if Olive could, and did turn, that wouldn't be the end of Jillian's fate. The capitol city that they just captured is also called Haffaton. Loj Banhammer is the new Ruler. That is a way Fate could course correct. We know it won't, because Jillian is far away when Faq falls, but that is a loophole that fate could exploit.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:59 pm 
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    MonteCristo wrote:
    Well not exactly... i mean terrible punishment would only (maybe) occur if Olive agreed to turn.
    That can't be right. If Olive turned that would be in direct contradiction of a Prediction, and Fate doesn't allow that sort of thing. Wanda should expect punishment just for attempting to defy Fate.

    I want to know what's going through Olive's mind. Olive knows that if she stays as the ruler of Haffaton then she will be croaked by Jillian. Knowing that makes choosing not to turn seem suicidal. But perhaps against all the evidence to the contrary Olive suspects that this trial might not be that Fate being fulfilled. She has no way of knowing when Jillian will croak the ruler of Haffaton, so maybe Olive's plan is to win the trial, have everyone turn to Haffaton, and then split off a new powerful side to replace Haffaton while leaving some sucker as ruler of the remains of Haffaton. I would have to call that pathological ambition, but what else could she be thinking?

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     Post Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 11:15 pm 
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    Are we sure that Olive can't appoint an heir before she in theory turns? If so her side wouldn't end, and Jill could kill the new ruler.

    (Wanda made suggestion because she knows Olive won't want to turn and will have trouble for a few seconds with poker face/acting role. Plot wise don't think it will happen in this story. But in theory is possible for same sort of logic Parson gave when reading Charlie's scroll... )

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     Post Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 11:53 pm 
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    splintermute wrote:
    When did Wanda change from her kimono back into her 5th Element outfit?


    Super art fail on my part... please forgive me. T_T

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     Post Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 11:57 pm 
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    multilis wrote:
    Are we sure that Olive can't appoint an heir before she in theory turns? If so her side wouldn't end, and Jill could kill the new ruler.

    (Wanda made suggestion because she knows Olive won't want to turn and will have trouble for a few seconds with poker face/acting role. Plot wise don't think it will happen in this story. But in theory is possible for same sort of logic Parson gave when reading Charlie's scroll... )


    From what we've seen, Haffaton is very short on cash. They most likely to not have the schmuckers to appoint an heir which is very expensive. Granted it might be possible for Olive to raze a bunch of cites to get the schmukers she would need, but We don't know if a captured ruler can make such commands... But Olive will certainly take the complete loss of all her power and everything she built very seriously

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     Post Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:07 am 
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    multilis wrote:
    Are we sure that Olive can't appoint an heir before she in theory turns? If so her side wouldn't end, and Jill could kill the new ruler.
    That seems unlikely. Faq seems to universally feel that Olive is no threat while she is a prisoner. That obviously means she can't cast, but it would also need to mean that she is unable to do any dangerous things that rulers can normally do, and at this moment appointing an heir for Haffaton would be the most dangerous thing for Faq that I can imagine. If capturing an enemy ruler alive meant giving that ruler a chance to appoint an heir, then I doubt anyone would ever capture a ruler alive.

    On the other hand we've seen that a ruler doesn't need to be sitting on the throne to appoint an heir, and we've seen that a ruler doesn't need to be in the same hex to make a unit into an heir. It's not clear exactly what is required other than shmuckers, so it may still be possible for Olive to do it.

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     Post Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:10 am 
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    Gildomar wrote:
    I believe it is still Haffaton's turn, in their capital...


    Haffaton's turn, yes, but the capital site now belongs to Faq, so... no worries about the garden. :) Or at least there shouldn't be.

    I wonder, do we know for sure that the prediction for Jillian to kill Olive has actually occurred? I could easily see Olive turning to Faq, eventually turning to Charlescomm or some other side, and Jillian's fateful swing being in the future rather than the past. Probably not, but it's an interesting thing to speculate about.

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     Post Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:34 am 
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    Does Wanda still have the "heir" ability or whatever?

    Anyway, Olive should jump at this opportunity. Sidestep Fate and if she keeps her heir ability she could eventually rule over FAQ after Banhammer croaks. If she knows about that prediction, which she may or may not considering she knows about the Jillian croaking her one iirc.

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     Post Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 1:43 am 
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    For me, the most interesting option is if Olive designates Orwell as heir.

    For Faq: This prevents the possible mass-disbandment of units if Olive turns, but also means that Jillian is now fated to kill their ex-caster.

    For Olive: It will greatly help her chances of survival, but she loses everything.

    Also it would be great to see Orwell go all power-corrupt so that Jillian would have to slay him.

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     Post Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 2:01 am 
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    multilis wrote:
    Faq seems to universally feel that Olive is no threat while she is a prisoner. That obviously means she can't cast,...


    Are we sure that prisoner can not cast? Jillian could fight while being a prisoner.

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     Post Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 2:48 am 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    MonteCristo wrote:
    Well not exactly... i mean terrible punishment would only (maybe) occur if Olive agreed to turn.
    That can't be right. If Olive turned that would be in direct contradiction of a Prediction, and Fate doesn't allow that sort of thing. Wanda should expect punishment just for attempting to defy Fate.

    Why should that punishment fall on Wanda? The person who'd actually do the turning would be Olive, wouldn't it?

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     Post Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:10 am 
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    Mirage_GSM wrote:
    Why should that punishment fall on Wanda? The person who'd actually do the turning would be Olive, wouldn't it?
    But you can't try to turn and fail, so Olive won't be attempting to defy Fate this time. On the other hand, Wanda is clearly pushing Olive to turn, even if that's not the outcome that Wanda really wants. It depends on how forgiving Fate is of people who mess with the plan, but I would have expected Wanda to take Fate more seriously than this.

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     Post Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:48 am 
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    If an attempt is made to break fate, someone will get hurt. Wanda is trying to get Olive to be the one who's hurt. This might not work, but I don't think she's disrespecting fate here.

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