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 Post Posted: Fri May 10, 2013 12:05 pm 
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Yes, it's not clear how much time pressure there actually is here.

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     Post Posted: Fri May 10, 2013 12:33 pm 
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    Sildraug wrote:
    coyotenose wrote:
    Urf wrote:
    OH FFS

    The Arkenhammer's flight capabilities is NOT a plot point.


    Yes, it is. It's highly relevant that Stanley doesn't think it can speed him enough to climb all those stairs in time. Claiming it isn't a plot point is exactly the same as claiming that the recent exchange between Parson and Charlie about what Parson can't do to succeed is not a plot point.


    Here's what I'm wondering. Doesn't the basis of this entire time pressure problem--at least on Stanley's end--contradict what was established by the picnic discussion about time physics in Erfworld?


    No. If anything, with little happening in GK, time flows faster there. Every minute in GK may be 3 in Jetstone right now. That's why Stanley may think Jetstone is already gone.

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     Post Posted: Fri May 10, 2013 1:53 pm 
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    Stanley could plan a big party to celebrate, that would take up the rest of the turn and thereby compress his activity into as short a timeframe as possible. Actually, anyone in GK could do that. Not that they'd think to do it, but whatever.

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     Post Posted: Fri May 10, 2013 2:07 pm 
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    drachefly wrote:
    Stanley could plan a big party to celebrate, that would take up the rest of the turn and thereby compress his activity into as short a timeframe as possible. Actually, anyone in GK could do that. Not that they'd think to do it, but whatever.


    Stnaley is not on Turn. This Turn ends when Trem decides.

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     Post Posted: Fri May 10, 2013 2:36 pm 
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    Kreistor wrote:
    drachefly wrote:
    As for Zhopa helping, I was deducing that IF Stanley can't fly usefully, then carrying would be the way. I'd bet against a grappling hook. Seems too needlessly involved. I can't see it being a worthwhile use of space in a climactic moment.


    But Zhopa acting as mule does? It's no more exciting or interesting than finding a horse. And would Stanley not see it as embarrassing to have to ride on someone else's shoulders? The Hammer is just a plain cool way to travel, and creative solutions to let Stanley use the Hammer to get up are far more dramatic than a piggy-back ride. Even Zhopa just tossing a rope to the Tower top that lets Stanley ride up the angled wall to a window is more interesting, and better visually, than piggy-back.

    And that also has potential in the long term. Attach steel tudes and rings to the side of the Tower to let Stanley ride his Hammer up and down and avoid the stairs entirely.


    Being carried by Zhopa would require a sacrifice on Stanley's part, a BIG sacrifice: his pride. He would be trading his pride for a friend on top of having to trade off his capital city. That is a major life event for the Tool that is probably only made possible by Zhopa's helping him to understand that Hamster does need Stanley; that even when the Perfect Warlord is in play, Stanley is important to his people. Like anyone with a fragile ego, Stanley thinks he's important, but at base he doesn't believe it's really true. Stanley never gets to make an important decision that really, truly helps his units, and saving Hamster like this could actually make him a stronger person. It's a far more dramatic event than anything else that's been suggested, even the super-awesome "Zhopa builds a throne on the spot" suggestion or sending Stanley up in a dumbwaiter.

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     Post Posted: Fri May 10, 2013 2:42 pm 
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    Kreistor wrote:
    Sildraug wrote:

    Here's what I'm wondering. Doesn't the basis of this entire time pressure problem--at least on Stanley's end--contradict what was established by the picnic discussion about time physics in Erfworld?


    No. If anything, with little happening in GK, time flows faster there. Every minute in GK may be 3 in Jetstone right now. That's why Stanley may think Jetstone is already gone.


    Even with the summer update, the relationship of time between units in different hexes is nebulous. However, I'll opine that because Parson said "two minutes" directly to Stanley, that means time is running the same for both of them. Stanley thinks he may already be too late because although he knows Hamster is alive at that moment, he has spent about that long arguing over the matter with himself and Zhopa. They do a LOT of talking there.

    Now, that doesn't literally mean "Hamster burns in two minutes". That's just an estimate on the part of someone who is looking right at oncoming death. It might easily be twice that long. Or the roof might cave in at a minute thirty...

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     Post Posted: Fri May 10, 2013 3:06 pm 
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    It seems that even if Parson and all units in Spacerock die, Stanley could still change caps and send in Seismic and Wanda to put out the inferno and Decrypt the troops. Potentially.

    I liked the notion of Parson mentally ordering Wanda to create her own side, but having the Tool become likeable in a single update was arright too.

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     Post Posted: Fri May 10, 2013 3:55 pm 
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    Nieki wrote:
    This is probably a minor note, but I registered for one reason: The callback hidden in this update. I don't know if it's intentional or people have discussed it or not, but I'm pretty sure it's deliberate--and significant.

    Zhopa wrote:
    Everybody need help, Lud. Is leetle theengs that make a difference, sometimes. Would be a shame, he croaks.


    Of all things, it's calling back to:

    Page 1, Book 1, sentence 1 wrote:
    It's the little things which make a difference sometimes.


    Perhaps this is nothing, or perhaps it's Fate at work: before, it spurred another loss for Stanley the Plaid, removing Lord Manpower the Temporary from his position and spurring the need for a new Warlord to begin with. If this is Fate--active fate, or as Parson put it--

    Parson Gotti wrote:
    I mean you. "Erfworld."


    Then Fate may be acting on Stanley to prevent Parson's loss. There are strong indications Parson is not going to croak, but what position will he be in at the end of all this? Is Erfworld itself opposed to him dying? Is he, for lack of a better term, "special"? It's clear that Charlie wants him gone, wants him under his employ or out of the picture entirely. Why? What does Fate have in store for him, for them? Does Charlie--in line with his Thinkamancy--know something we do not about Mr. Gotti?


    Don't forget the more recent repetition:

    Book 2, Page 1, panel 1 wrote:
    It's the little things which make a difference sometimes.


    The first time, the "little thing" was a gem left by a Titan. The second time, it was said to be Stanley himself. In both cases it refers to something small from one perspective, but large from another. A tiny gem to a Titan ended up many times bigger than the Marbit who found it; Stanley, while short, is the most powerful Overlord on Erfworld and in good company.

    It seems to be a recurring theme in Erfworld that what seems like a small change can have strong, lasting repercussions. I'm still wondering about the implications of that very first page for the Titans and for Fate in general.

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     Post Posted: Fri May 10, 2013 4:01 pm 
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    0beron wrote:
    Whispri wrote:
    Inferno allowing, she'll have fliers, she'll have archers, she'll have heavies, Warlords, infantry to hold the walls, I'm really not seeing any significant gaps in their capabilities.

    True, but Jetstone will know the exact composition of that army she now has (or rather, the maximum numbers it could hold), and they're former Jetstone units so they also know the stats. If there is an upper hand to be had, Jetstone definitely has the info to find it.

    That hasn't helped them so far (and isn't entirely true, there are a lot of things the Casters could do). And as I said, they're withdrawing, falling back to their old Capital. They aren't going to turn round for one last kamikaze attack.

    youngstormlord wrote:
    Whispri wrote:
    Inferno allowing, she'll have fliers, she'll have archers, she'll have heavies, Warlords, infantry to hold the walls, I'm really not seeing any significant gaps in their capabilities. They won't have much in the way of tunnel units, but that's not a problem as Spacerock has no tunnel space. I suppose there could be an undiscovered cavern complex down there complete with rivers and mushroom forests, but I really think there isn't much chance of Wanda being chased out of the city by a hitherto unsuspected horde of war moles. ;) Numbers are a bit low but she has the Arkenpliers and a high end estimate of living casualties since she left could stretch to over a thousand.

    Who could even attack them? Charlie could send in the Archons... but there should be a lot of archers in that city, an air force and there could be as many as five Casters, plus, you know, the Arkenpliers. Would Charlie really risk taking Parson on in circumstances like that? Jetstone are retreating, plus they were down to around fifteen hundred men before Slately charged the garrison. They simply may not have the manpower to retake the city, even without Wanda raising the fallen. Haggar probably didn't lose half their army as Charlie asked of them, but they did lose their Chief Warlord and left a lot dead behind them as they retreated. Attacking a weakened victor was their plan, but after their own losses, do they really have the power to take Spacerock with both Wanda and Parson in it? Faq are mostly undamaged, but they're bottom feeders and probably out of range already for today at least, which means they wouldn't be able to attack before Wanda's able to leave the city and start recruiting (and there's a hex littered with Haggar and Jetstone dead not so very far away).

    Charlie may well be able to pull off a threatening attack, but if Wanda's in the City and Parson can freely escape to the Magick Kingdom if things get too hot? Hard to see him risking it.

    Nope. All corpses dissapear next turn, if not moved. All the chances are that you can forget about most of those forces outside the city for that reason and most of them inside as well (for inferno reason. Remember Bogroll?).
    Wanda's army of Decrypted is what tvtropes calls Keystone Army and Wanda is Keystone.

    Oh but they don't, we've seen Wanda uncroak armies in the hex they died the turn after they died, or even the day after they died and more than once.

    As for the inferno, there's very good reason to think that it won't damage corpses sufficiently to prevent Decryption as Wanda was able to Decrypt the bodies of those who were killed in the Inferno at Motoroyal/Dwagoncon.

    In Haffaton's day Wanda's reputation spread to Sides far beyond their borders, that just wouldn't have happened if she were easy to kill.

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    Last edited by Whispri on Fri May 10, 2013 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post Posted: Fri May 10, 2013 4:02 pm 
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    clik wrote:
    I liked the notion of Parson mentally ordering Wanda to create her own side, but having the Tool become likeable in a single update was arright too.
    I don't think Parson can give that order; if he could, he could just order his troops to change sides anyway.

    And it's not really an "emergency situation" that would allow Parson to invoke Duty, either. The side is not at stake here (honestly, Jetstone burning accomplishes most of the goals they wanted, anyway.) Parson's life is the only really important thing at stake.

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     Post Posted: Sat May 11, 2013 4:46 am 
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    I'm thinking Zhopa will THROW Stanley, as hard as he can, in the direction Stanley needs to go. Then, Stanley will use the hammer to guide himself and prevent the aerial maneuvering from counting as a fall.

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     Post Posted: Sat May 11, 2013 6:47 am 
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    I don't think we'll see how Stanley gets up the stairs. I think the next comic will show Stanley sitting in his big chair, and Zhopa just puffing in the background.

    And I'm pretty sure the Arkenhammer lets Stanley fly.

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     Post Posted: Sat May 11, 2013 7:28 am 
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    mcw0933 wrote:
    This all got me thinking: we haven't actually seen what happens to a non-caster that steps through the portal. All we know is Bea stepped through and her side ended. We also know that Parson stepped through and got immediately shanghaied by GMTTA.
    And we saw Parson step through the portal and not be immediately confronted (shanghaied is not a correct term in this context) by IdiotMTTA. We saw the scene, it showed casters casually strolling about, not a series of guards at each portal or even a central group of guards. If this had been Stanley stepping through, Stanley could have ducked back right away and there would go the entire conspiracy theory, right?

    Look, units are popped knowing the rules. This is canon. Their libraries are full of accounts of battles, and not descriptions of how things work, because there is no need for such books. No ruler or other unit would have read about this function of the portals, they just know it from the day they are popped. If Bea knew she'd die upon entering the portal, and Stanley knows that he'd die upon entering the portal, I see no reason at all to assume that there is some massive disinformation campaign capable of reaching every side and spreading a false rumor about what happens when a non-caster enters a portal.

    Nothing else makes sense. Some ruler without a caster to give him this bit if disinformation would be staring at the portal one day. Then he'd order a unit to pop through and right back and report what he saw. Unless the MK casters violated their now-violated neutrality by pouring through the portal and trying to end that side, word would spread about how it's just a lie. Or some less credulous ruler, like Stanley who doubted Maggie's intentions when she wanted to go through the portal, would do the same "just to be sure" of the story, and the whole lie would unravel. Or some caster who, you know, actually had loyalty to their ruler would simply refuse to lie to them. And wouldn't be popped knowing the lie in any case.

    Casters destroying units which pass through portals is nothing more than an epileptic twee theory. Portals take care of that just fine.

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     Post Posted: Sat May 11, 2013 2:04 pm 
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    Timey-whimey stuff in Erfworld is still a bit hard to understand, because it's been mostly explained based on Parson's understanding of it, and he's noted that it doesn't make much sense to him.
    But the one thing I have drawn from it is this. When dealing with time between different hexes, duration doesn't matter, only order. So in theory, I think Stanley has all the time in the world to make this decision. As long as nobody else in the Spacerock hex contacts Stanely, his decision to change the capital should happen in time.

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     Post Posted: Sun May 12, 2013 9:35 am 
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    Whispri wrote:

    As for the inferno, there's very good reason to think that it won't damage corpses sufficiently to prevent Decryption as Wanda was able to Decrypt the bodies of those who were killed in the Inferno at Motoroyal/Dwagoncon.



    Wait, was there a question about bodies being left after an inferno? Because we've seen a multi-hex volcano-based fire trap, and we've seen Wanda decrypt an entire army out of it after.

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     Post Posted: Sun May 12, 2013 2:44 pm 
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    The volcano was treated like a trap by Erfworld, not as an inferno. The only solid example of an inferno that we have so far is Dwagoncon.

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     Post Posted: Sun May 12, 2013 3:31 pm 
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    Oberon wrote:
    mcw0933 wrote:
    This all got me thinking: we haven't actually seen what happens to a non-caster that steps through the portal. All we know is Bea stepped through and her side ended. We also know that Parson stepped through and got immediately shanghaied by GMTTA.
    And we saw Parson step through the portal and not be immediately confronted (shanghaied is not a correct term in this context) by IdiotMTTA. We saw the scene, it showed casters casually strolling about, not a series of guards at each portal or even a central group of guards. If this had been Stanley stepping through, Stanley could have ducked back right away and there would go the entire conspiracy theory, right?

    In Book 1 it was unclear if portals were guarded, Parson was shown with many mages ready to shoot him.

    In Book 2 we have scene where portals do not appear to be guarded which reduces chance of portal conspiracy, but...

    We still know FAQ stayed bubble kingdom from teaming of predictomancer with foolomancer until betrayed.... so still room for predictomancers dedicated to predicting when non-casters will go through portal and assassin squads sent to eliminate them.

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     Post Posted: Sun May 12, 2013 3:45 pm 
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    0beron wrote:
    Timey-whimey stuff in Erfworld is still a bit hard to understand, because it's been mostly explained based on Parson's understanding of it, and he's noted that it doesn't make much sense to him.
    But the one thing I have drawn from it is this. When dealing with time between different hexes, duration doesn't matter, only order. So in theory, I think Stanley has all the time in the world to make this decision. As long as nobody else in the Spacerock hex contacts Stanely, his decision to change the capital should happen in time.

    Unless stating that he only had 2 minutes caused that to be true for Stanley, Dr. Who style.

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     Post Posted: Sun May 12, 2013 7:12 pm 
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    ManaCaster wrote:
    bensans wrote:
    Was it Wanda in Book1 explaining the suggestion she placed on Jillian that the target of the spell supplies his/her own reasons for acting upon a compulsion. Stanley's reactions sure sound like the rationalizations behind fullfilling a compulsion!

    I very much doubt he's under a suggestion spell, but it is possible that Fate is having a similar effect.


    ? he was put under one by Maggie very recently - I can't remember if it was this turn or last turn though. So he could definitely be suffering from the influence of that spell.

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     Post Posted: Sun May 12, 2013 10:45 pm 
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    LordAcme wrote:
    ManaCaster wrote:
    bensans wrote:
    Was it Wanda in Book1 explaining the suggestion she placed on Jillian that the target of the spell supplies his/her own reasons for acting upon a compulsion. Stanley's reactions sure sound like the rationalizations behind fullfilling a compulsion!

    I very much doubt he's under a suggestion spell, but it is possible that Fate is having a similar effect.


    ? he was put under one by Maggie very recently - I can't remember if it was this turn or last turn though. So he could definitely be suffering from the influence of that spell.

    Or he could be suffering from natural magic... remember "love is a battlefield"! Stanley is always mean to Sizemore. Maggie likes Sizemore. Therefore Stanley is obviously jealous and secretly battling to win the love of Maggie. He has realised that Maggie respects Parson, and if he lets Parson die then Maggie may never love him. But if he saves Parson he may be the hero in Maggie's eyes!

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