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 Post Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 6:40 pm 
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0beron wrote:
effataigus wrote:
The enemy's best hopes lay with...hitting her so asymmetrically that her side doesn't get *any* kills.

This is exactly what I'm fearing. That someone will be clever enough to find a strategic weakness in her forces and attack them at this weak moment asymmetrically.

Inferno allowing, she'll have fliers, she'll have archers, she'll have heavies, Warlords, infantry to hold the walls, I'm really not seeing any significant gaps in their capabilities. They won't have much in the way of tunnel units, but that's not a problem as Spacerock has no tunnel space. I suppose there could be an undiscovered cavern complex down there complete with rivers and mushroom forests, but I really think there isn't much chance of Wanda being chased out of the city by a hitherto unsuspected horde of war moles. ;) Numbers are a bit low but she has the Arkenpliers and a high end estimate of living casualties since she left could stretch to over a thousand.

Who could even attack them? Charlie could send in the Archons... but there should be a lot of archers in that city, an air force and there could be as many as five Casters, plus, you know, the Arkenpliers. Would Charlie really risk taking Parson on in circumstances like that? Jetstone are retreating, plus they were down to around fifteen hundred men before Slately charged the garrison. They simply may not have the manpower to retake the city, even without Wanda raising the fallen. Haggar probably didn't lose half their army as Charlie asked of them, but they did lose their Chief Warlord and left a lot dead behind them as they retreated. Attacking a weakened victor was their plan, but after their own losses, do they really have the power to take Spacerock with both Wanda and Parson in it? Faq are mostly undamaged, but they're bottom feeders and probably out of range already for today at least, which means they wouldn't be able to attack before Wanda's able to leave the city and start recruiting (and there's a hex littered with Haggar and Jetstone dead not so very far away).

Charlie may well be able to pull off a threatening attack, but if Wanda's in the City and Parson can freely escape to the Magick Kingdom if things get too hot? Hard to see him risking it.

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Last edited by Whispri on Fri May 10, 2013 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 10:41 pm 
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    mortissimus wrote:
    Then Wanda goes through and decrypts all that has not been burned. Instant army.


    Leading an army with the Arkenpliers can be devastating, as we saw, but it's tricky. It works well when Wanda can put her heavies out front, and create enemy corpses faster than they can kill her decrypted troops. But if attrition works the other way, she will eventually run out of troops.

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     Post Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 10:57 pm 
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    More simply...

    If you have a spider at the center of the web, you don't strike at the web, you strike at the spider. The glaring fault-point of Wanda's Pliers is Wanda herself. If SHE gets Croaked, the whole army goes poof. Therefore, you ignore the Decrypted and target her directly. Attacking her Decrypted only bleeds your own troops, which then become hers as they die. Sure, you might engineer a favorable rate of attrition, but that would be horribly bloody and wasteful. A surgical precision strike, a suicide squad going for Wanda herself, is the way to beat her. And Charlie's Archons are ideally suited for that task, what with some of the abilities they have demonstrated in the past, plus their foolamancy to be able to get close enough to MAKE that shot.

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     Post Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 11:00 pm 
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    So if it's the ground that kills you and not the sudden stop, what happens if you land on a unit that's on the ground like a mount? Or a mosh pit?

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     Post Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 11:11 pm 
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    Yeah if I was going for Wanda I'd bury marbits in the ground, use scouts and hats and try an assassination. Maybe a grenade or two to take out the whole area once you get her in the hole.

    Attrition wise you either got archery across hexes or traps. You could buff the hell out of a caster/mount's movement and have the caster keep fleeing and leaving behind traps I'm sure, but I doubt that it would make much difference unless you use a ton of traps. Or think of something else. If you know Wanda and not just the forces you could try to entice her away from the majority of the army like the bridge battle, either using Fate or a fake message from Parson. Mind control a decrypted if you can get one to assassinate her and leave it chained in a city you let fall to her forces. Order your casters to assassinate her in the MK (there's a strategy with long term consequences), surrender and ally to GK and time the betrayal for when your best units are closest to her, etc etc. There's always another way, but most of the ways cost more than they're worth aside from a direct assassination.

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     Post Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 11:24 pm 
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    Whispri wrote:
    Inferno allowing, she'll have fliers, she'll have archers, she'll have heavies, Warlords, infantry to hold the walls, I'm really not seeing any significant gaps in their capabilities.

    True, but Jetstone will know the exact composition of that army she now has (or rather, the maximum numbers it could hold), and they're former Jetstone units so they also know the stats. If there is an upper hand to be had, Jetstone definitely has the info to find it.

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     Post Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 11:33 pm 
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    Nieki wrote:
    This is probably a minor note, but I registered for one reason: The callback hidden in this update. I don't know if it's intentional or people have discussed it or not, but I'm pretty sure it's deliberate--and significant.

    Oh, it's definitely deliberate -- and probably significant. It would be very amusing if it things play out as this update suggests (i.e. Charlie's foolproof plan undone by a Twoll whose master can't even remember his name).

    Quote:
    Does Charlie--in line with his Thinkamancy--know something we do not about Mr. Gotti?

    Possibly. It's one of two ways to explain why he wants him to use the scroll so badly. The one that's been brought up before is that the scroll does something different than what was claimed, like making the target Charlie's servant and/or transporting him to Charlie. However, it is also possible that Charlie is acting based on some Predictamancy unknown to the reader. Charlie's actions are out of character for him: it makes sense to lure Parson into the trap and cut off his means of escape, but why reveal himself and help Parson discard non-viable options? Why not just let him croak? Either Charlie really wants Parson on his side and the scroll accomplishes that or Charlie knows that it's not Parson's Fate to croak in Spacerock (or something of the sort) and he is bluffing to get Parson to return to Earth.

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     Post Posted: Fri May 10, 2013 12:59 am 
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    Was it Wanda in Book1 explaining the suggestion she placed on Jillian that the target of the spell supplies his/her own reasons for acting upon a compulsion. Stanley's reactions sure sound like the rationalizations behind fullfilling a compulsion!

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     Post Posted: Fri May 10, 2013 1:57 am 
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    Found this. Book 2, Text update 37.

    Quote:
    It was that they'd need to decide what to do next. Parson Gotti was not only back in command, but back as chief warlord. This moment had been so long in coming that it had lost the buzz of anticipation. Marie had said this battle would be "a point of turning of all turns," which Janis couldn't quite dig. But a lot of what Marie said was like that.


    Now maybe I'm looking for meaning in things which are just terribly vague, but this could also be a play on words. It's possible that it was referring to Kingworld, I guess, though the update was long as Kingworld occurred.

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     Post Posted: Fri May 10, 2013 2:16 am 
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    bensans wrote:
    Was it Wanda in Book1 explaining the suggestion she placed on Jillian that the target of the spell supplies his/her own reasons for acting upon a compulsion. Stanley's reactions sure sound like the rationalizations behind fullfilling a compulsion!

    What would it sound like if he came to decide to save Parson of his own free will?

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     Post Posted: Fri May 10, 2013 3:18 am 
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    bensans wrote:
    Was it Wanda in Book1 explaining the suggestion she placed on Jillian that the target of the spell supplies his/her own reasons for acting upon a compulsion. Stanley's reactions sure sound like the rationalizations behind fullfilling a compulsion!

    I very much doubt he's under a suggestion spell, but it is possible that Fate is having a similar effect.

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     Post Posted: Fri May 10, 2013 5:01 am 
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    Whispri wrote:
    Inferno allowing, she'll have fliers, she'll have archers, she'll have heavies, Warlords, infantry to hold the walls, I'm really not seeing any significant gaps in their capabilities. They won't have much in the way of tunnel units, but that's not a problem as Spacerock has no tunnel space. I suppose there could be an undiscovered cavern complex down there complete with rivers and mushroom forests, but I really think there isn't much chance of Wanda being chased out of the city by a hitherto unsuspected horde of war moles. ;) Numbers are a bit low but she has the Arkenpliers and a high end estimate of living casualties since she left could stretch to over a thousand.

    Who could even attack them? Charlie could send in the Archons... but there should be a lot of archers in that city, an air force and there could be as many as five Casters, plus, you know, the Arkenpliers. Would Charlie really risk taking Parson on in circumstances like that? Jetstone are retreating, plus they were down to around fifteen hundred men before Slately charged the garrison. They simply may not have the manpower to retake the city, even without Wanda raising the fallen. Haggar probably didn't lose half their army as Charlie asked of them, but they did lose their Chief Warlord and left a lot dead behind them as they retreated. Attacking a weakened victor was their plan, but after their own losses, do they really have the power to take Spacerock with both Wanda and Parson in it? Faq are mostly undamaged, but they're bottom feeders and probably out of range already for today at least, which means they wouldn't be able to attack before Wanda's able to leave the city and start recruiting (and there's a hex littered with Haggar and Jetstone dead not so very far away).

    Charlie may well be able to pull of a threatening attack, but if Wanda's in the City and Parson can freely escape to the Magick Kingdom if things get too hot? Hard to see him risking it.


    Nope. All corpses dissapear next turn, if not moved. All the chances are that you can forget about most of those forces outside the city for that reason and most of them inside as well (for inferno reason. Remember Bogroll?).
    Wanda's army of Decrypted is what tvtropes calls Keystone Army and Wanda is Keystone.

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     Post Posted: Fri May 10, 2013 6:45 am 
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    I've not read 7 pages of comments but I was wondering if anyone else has suggested that the trolls help might be to throw Stanley out of the window. With the ArkenHammer he can fly straight up the the throne room.

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     Post Posted: Fri May 10, 2013 6:51 am 
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    We can only hope Stanley hits a veiled Archon in GK airspace.

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     Post Posted: Fri May 10, 2013 8:40 am 
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    talkamancer wrote:
    I've not read 7 pages of comments but I was wondering if anyone else has suggested that the trolls help might be to throw Stanley out of the window. With the ArkenHammer he can fly straight up the the throne room.


    Yeah, there was an extensive argument about that.

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     Post Posted: Fri May 10, 2013 8:59 am 
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    I really don't like how everyone is trying to explain Stanley's change with fate, suggestions and other magical compulsion stuff. I think the case is much simpler and is what we usually call "character development".

    Yes, I'm a Tool fanboy. Stanley FTW.

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     Post Posted: Fri May 10, 2013 9:36 am 
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    drachefly wrote:
    I hate so say it, but it would probably be faster and more reliable to have Zhopa carry him, this time. For the future, though, if he's stuck moving vertically, they should totally get a zip line set up.


    Does a twoll actually move faster than a human? These aren't the most athletic creatures, more resembling slow-moving wrestlers than lithe runners. And if so, how much faster? Remember, Stanley has no endurance issues, and does not get tired climbing stairs. And despite his size, game rules frequently make no difference between size and movement speed. There can be all kinds of funkinesses here -- with Zhopa having slower speed but larger move, or vice versa. So units with the same Move have the same rate of speed? Lots of speculation here, but I seriously have a feeling this has to do with a known quality of twolls -- fabrication -- instead of unknown.

    And, conceptually though embarrassingly, Stanley could use the hammer in the stairwell and simply push off the underside of the stairs. Faster? Slightly, potentially.

    Quote:
    Anyway... if he is stuck moving vertically, couldn't Jillian have just hung out directly under where she last saw them? There would be no need for the search they called.


    You talk about the ambush? They didn't know the flight characteristics of the Hammer. And since we have other devices that do provide move (broomstick), Jillian couldn't presume it could not go elsewhere. Add to that the presence of other dwagons, and even if it goes straight up, they could have reached a veiled back-up.

    You're giving Jillian info she never had.

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     Post Posted: Fri May 10, 2013 11:17 am 
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    zilfallon wrote:
    I really don't like how everyone is trying to explain Stanley's change with fate, suggestions and other magical compulsion stuff. I think the case is much simpler and is what we usually call "character development".


    Agreed 100%. I would co-sign this statement if there were some mechanism available on the board to do so.

    As for Zhopa helping, I was deducing that IF Stanley can't fly usefully, then carrying would be the way. I'd bet against a grappling hook. Seems too needlessly involved. I can't see it being a worthwhile use of space in a climactic moment.

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     Post Posted: Fri May 10, 2013 11:40 am 
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    drachefly wrote:
    As for Zhopa helping, I was deducing that IF Stanley can't fly usefully, then carrying would be the way. I'd bet against a grappling hook. Seems too needlessly involved. I can't see it being a worthwhile use of space in a climactic moment.


    But Zhopa acting as mule does? It's no more exciting or interesting than finding a horse. And would Stanley not see it as embarrassing to have to ride on someone else's shoulders? The Hammer is just a plain cool way to travel, and creative solutions to let Stanley use the Hammer to get up are far more dramatic than a piggy-back ride. Even Zhopa just tossing a rope to the Tower top that lets Stanley ride up the angled wall to a window is more interesting, and better visually, than piggy-back.

    And that also has potential in the long term. Attach steel tudes and rings to the side of the Tower to let Stanley ride his Hammer up and down and avoid the stairs entirely.

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     Post Posted: Fri May 10, 2013 11:46 am 
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    coyotenose wrote:
    Urf wrote:
    OH FFS

    The Arkenhammer's flight capabilities is NOT a plot point.


    Yes, it is. It's highly relevant that Stanley doesn't think it can speed him enough to climb all those stairs in time. Claiming it isn't a plot point is exactly the same as claiming that the recent exchange between Parson and Charlie about what Parson can't do to succeed is not a plot point.


    Here's what I'm wondering. Doesn't the basis of this entire time pressure problem--at least on Stanley's end--contradict what was established by the picnic discussion about time physics in Erfworld?

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