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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 108
 Post Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 2:08 pm 
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Some more brainstorming. There are three general tactics for getting through the inferno alive:
1. Leave the city.
2. Get protection from the fire.
3. Put out the fire.

1. Parson is NOT going to use the scroll. We know he wins from Marie's prediction. Leaving the city will require move, either from GK gaining it via the fugitive method (assuming it's possible, I'm confident the doombat is dead since GK has control of the city), or from using someone else's move. I previously theorized that Parson could let Haggar capture him, but with Charlie monitoring the area he could simply order Haggar to let Parson die/kill Parson when he leaves the hex. Haggar's force is still sizable, and without Wanda's decryption ability this could be difficult or impossible to survive out in the open with few units, but it might be a last resort option if they can somehow sneak out or negotiate. They would still need to get through the fire to the hex boundary though, and the portal room is looking blocked off now.

2. If it were possible to gain protection from the fire from a safe spot, or from the red dwagons / equipment Parson has, Charlie would have known about the possibility and wouldn't consider Parson trapped as is. I don't see this happening.

3. This would be preferable to leaving the hex. Parson may be able to cast, but it is fairly clear he cannot put out the inferno himself. Sizemore would be needed. This means getting the portal open, and since Stanley isn't going to change the capital, starting a new side is the only option. Parson SHOULD be able to turn without breaking duty, on the grounds that Charlie will eventually destroy GK without his help. The monkey wrench according to Charlie is the units from another side being in the hex. We know from Parson's moral standpoint that he doesn't put himself before units in his command, so he won't disband them if he doesn't have to. But we know from Klog 3 that units can be given orders to turn. Parson could either order them to turn with him simultaneously/turn barbarian and then to the new side/etc. At which point he needs to convince Sizemore to enter the portal without his influence as Sizemore's Chief Warlord. Sizemore might be reluctant, but with the possibility of decrypting Jack/Ace it shouldn't be difficult to persuade him from a "mutual advantage" argument.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 108
     Post Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 2:17 pm 
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    It seems to me like Dwagons would be much harder to turn than people, especially decrypted ones. I don't see Parson being able to order the reds to turn.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 108
     Post Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 2:31 pm 
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    Parson calculates the chance of casting the spell and finds out he can.

    Parson calculates the chance of him casting it and bringing someone else to Erfworld.

    Parson calculates the chance of brining some one from Erfworld to Space Rock.

    Parson casts and brings Dirtamancer. Puts out city.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 108
     Post Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 2:35 pm 
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    Here I'll add a few things that came to mind while reading what others have been posting in here.

    First, it would be interesting to reread the whole comic again under this knowledge, but that won't happen today :D
    Still, I reread the parts where Jojo interacts with Parson and found a few interesting things.
    Specially panel 9 in this update about Parson being a Warlord or Caster and what type of Caster
    Quote:
    Oh, he is a joker, he's a wild card. Better than an Ace, folks. He can beat everything! He can be anything!

    and panel 8 in this update about what the spell might really do
    Quote:
    This is the trick. To make a wild card disappear

    Also what Isaac says about the spell in the last panel.
    Quote:
    The spell might do what he claims. Or destroy you. Either way, our mutual enemy Charlie crafted it specifically to eliminate you


    Also, two things about this update.
    Janis in panel 5 when meeting Parson
    Quote:
    It's like... Looking at a little loose flame. When all the world is one great forest hex

    And Marie in panel 9 about Jojo knowing Parson was coming
    Quote:
    I only wondah how he knew you wah coming. That's hard Predictamancy...

    We know/assume that Jojo knew about it through Charlie and Charlie knew about it through tapping into GK communications. Still it wouldn't surprise me if Charlie also had hired a good amount of predictamancy about this turn. It would be interesting to try to guess what might a tri-link between a predictamancer, the arkendish and Charlie as a carnymancer can do with predictions and Fate.

    Now I'll put my tinfoil hat on.

    I like the idea of starting a new side to get the portal to reopen.
    First, since the city is now GK's, tell the dwagons to get out of the garrison by taking off.
    Assuming Lex Doothis was not alone and had his stack of troops when travelling all through that great ocean and also assuming the SPW spell doesn't allow Parson to leave GK, he orders Antium to turn and start a new side to open the portal, get Sizemore and then turn back to GK. In the process he has to capture Parson to be able to start that new side and once the portal opens, asks Sizemore to get to Spacerock to stop the Inferno and also reclaim Parson back for GK.
    Once the Inferno is under control and Parson is "decaptured" he goes to the portal room with Sizemore and sends him to get Wanda from the MK to decrypt everything in Spacerock. At that same time, Stanley orders all his Casters to get back to Gobwin Knob and since that's a direct order, they can't refuse. While Parson is at the portal room Antium turns back to GK thinking that's the right thing to do according to the plan Parson gave him (since it had been enough time for Sizemore to go get Wanda and come back) so the portal closes with Parson and Antium in Spacerock with a few red dwagons and all the rest of GK forces in GK.
    So Parson dodged the bullet of the Inferno, pissing off Charlie and avoiding to use the spell, but is still in a complicated situation since he is in a poorly defended city far away from the rest of GK forces and will find himself against the wall again on Charlie's next turn where he will again be pushed to use the spell to get out of everything.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 108
     Post Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 2:40 pm 
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    My own (highly provocative) theory:
    Spoiler: show
    None of this is real. None of it. On page 99, we see Marie flat out tell Parson it's a trap. Then, there's a cut scene to Sylvia taking down Ace. Then, we see that Parson is in the portal room, next to Jack, who is not supposed to be there and who flat out says he is only there due to a trick. I think that everything that has happened from that point is a VR simulation being run out of a trimancer link between Jack, Maggie and Marie. We know Parson and Jack have run VR combat simulations regularly -- it's been mentioned repeatedly by Jack. Jack being out of juice is not a problem in a link because we know links allow you to cheat on juice expenditure (Vanna being able to spend multiple turns of juice on a single spell, frex). I think Parson had the three link up and then show him a VR simulation of a prophecy depicting what would happen if he went through the portal and then played out events from there. Parson goes through and spends a few precious seconds dilly-dallying to make small talk with Jack and Antium until Slately closes the portal. Sylvia takes out Ace but then foolishly gets most of her unit taken out with bad tactics, leaving Ace to assist Slately. Jack dies solely because he goes outside to get a dragon to fight Ace. Then, Charlie cuts off communications and slams the trap shut.

    So if that theory is correct, what would Parson do differently if he KNEW what was going to happen the second he crossed over. My immediate thought is that there is some order he could instantly give Sylvia the second he crosses over that could prevent or delay Slately from changing the portal. Thoughts?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 108
     Post Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 2:43 pm 
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    williamaulbach wrote:
    Parson calculates the chance of casting the spell and finds out he can.

    Parson calculates the chance of him casting it and bringing someone else to Erfworld.

    Parson calculates the chance of brining some one from Erfworld to Space Rock.

    Parson casts and brings Dirtamancer. Puts out city.


    Forgot to put on my previous post.
    I also like the ideas that have been mentioned and the implications of Parson doing all sorts of calculations to try to figure out a way out of this mess. If there is someone who knows what type of questions to ask to solve this riddle, that's Parson.
    And having Charlie using one of his calculations to see the odds of success of Parson casting the spell on himself (making Parson realize he can cast) feels like the text update where Parson finds out his bracer can do sophisticated calculations.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 108
     Post Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 2:50 pm 
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    What if jetstone ended turn now? with no other units in the battlespace parsons turn would come back arount

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 108
     Post Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 3:14 pm 
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    atalex wrote:
    My own (highly provocative) theory:
    Spoiler: show
    None of this is real. None of it. On page 99, we see Marie flat out tell Parson it's a trap. Then, there's a cut scene to Sylvia taking down Ace. Then, we see that Parson is in the portal room, next to Jack, who is not supposed to be there and who flat out says he is only there due to a trick. I think that everything that has happened from that point is a VR simulation being run out of a trimancer link between Jack, Maggie and Marie. We know Parson and Jack have run VR combat simulations regularly -- it's been mentioned repeatedly by Jack. Jack being out of juice is not a problem in a link because we know links allow you to cheat on juice expenditure (Vanna being able to spend multiple turns of juice on a single spell, frex). I think Parson had the three link up and then show him a VR simulation of a prophecy depicting what would happen if he went through the portal and then played out events from there. Parson goes through and spends a few precious seconds dilly-dallying to make small talk with Jack and Antium until Slately closes the portal. Sylvia takes out Ace but then foolishly gets most of her unit taken out with bad tactics, leaving Ace to assist Slately. Jack dies solely because he goes outside to get a dragon to fight Ace. Then, Charlie cuts off communications and slams the trap shut.

    So if that theory is correct, what would Parson do differently if he KNEW what was going to happen the second he crossed over. My immediate thought is that there is some order he could instantly give Sylvia the second he crosses over that could prevent or delay Slately from changing the portal. Thoughts?

    I had a similar thought at one point, but I think it's gone too far to pull something like that. Plus, we don't know if it is linking, or linking with a Carnymancer that lets you fudge the juice rules. Vanna was linked with Charlie after all.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 108
     Post Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 4:23 pm 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    ysath wrote:
    Lipkin wrote:
    I just realized that Antium = Auntie Em, in addition to his first name being Adam.


    you just realized wrong.

    Adam Antium
    Adamantium

    No, I said in addition to his first name being Adam. I got the Adam Antium thing long ago. But Auntie Em is yet another connection to Wizard of Oz. If it's a coincidence, it's a good one. Things can be references to more than one thing.

    Antium doesn't appear to have any connection to Aunt Em, though, aside from a passing similarity in names. My money's on coincidence.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 108
     Post Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 4:28 pm 
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    Another way of getting out of this predicament -- Let Charlie Win.

    Marie said that Parson would win *eventually*. He may have to lose first. Parson can offer himself to Charlie, offering himself in exchange for a contract to either strengthen or preserve GK. GK gets a team of living Archons to replace the decrypted ones that were lost, on full service contract to his Toolship (at no cost) and unlimited thinkagrams to wherever the Tool wants to send them. Charlescomm gets one Perfect Warlord, complete with a Mathemancy bracer. Instead of Charlie using so many resources to remove Parson, he can instead utilize him. That's a win/win/win for Charlescomm. His greatest nemesis becomes an asset, the one Side with enough Arkenpower to even attempt to challenge him will not attack (Stanley might want to, but there's no way Wanda will do it), and the information leak from when Parson interviewed the decrypted Archons is sealed.

    This also ties in to the way out that Charlie offered Parson in Book 1. Charlie also told Parson that Charlescomm gets paid to make win/win situations, something he will learn when he is working for Charlescomm.

    Also, at that point, Parson can be a poisoned pill swallowed up by the enemy.

    This doesn't mean he has to turn, but he can be 'captured' and 'detained' while 'ransom' is discussed with Stanley, until Stanley comes up with the brilliant idea of leaving the Stupidworlder with Charlescomm in exchange for a fee for taking him away, something like 45 live Archons on full service contract to Stanley and unlimited thinkagrams. Then Stanley can use Maggie for trilinks again... too bad he no longer has a fool or a lookie.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 108
     Post Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 4:48 pm 
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    "But I got a gaff in mind, for when everybody's heading for the exits." Jojo Book 2 - Page 90

    I think I got it. I was looking back at some older pages and I saw something on Book 2 - Page 90. In the last panel it looks like Jojo is holding a miniature portal in his hand. Maybe it's just in the background but there is a yellow portal on the bottom right that is half cut off, and he is looking at his hand. I looks to me like Jojo has it in his hand. No one in the forum on that page mentioned that it might be a portal. Wouldn't a miniature portal be useful right about now? We also don't know what Jojo was referring to in that panel.

    What if Charlie, through Jojo, opens the portal in Spacerock. Parson assumes that the Tool switched the capital and runs through it. He could end up in Charlscomm, Stupidworld, or anywhere.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 108
     Post Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 5:00 pm 
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    Arcana wrote:
    "But I got a gaff in mind, for when everybody's heading for the exits." Jojo Book 2 - Page 90

    I think I got it. I was looking back at some older pages and I saw something on Book 2 - Page 90. In the last panel it looks like Jojo is holding a miniature portal in his hand. Maybe it's just in the background but there is a yellow portal on the bottom right that is half cut off, and he is looking at his hand. I looks to me like Jojo has it in his hand. No one in the forum on that page mentioned that it might be a portal. Wouldn't a miniature portal be useful right about now? We also don't know what Jojo was referring to in that panel.

    What if Charlie, through Jojo, opens the portal in Spacerock. Parson assumes that the Tool switched the capital and runs through it. He could end up in Charlscomm, Stupidworld, or anywhere.


    How would Jojo open a fake portal at Spacerock? I'm under the impression the "gaff" is meant for casters in the MK.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 108
     Post Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 5:06 pm 
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    bladestorm wrote:
    Parson can offer himself to Charlie, offering himself in exchange for a contract to either strengthen or preserve GK. GK gets a team of living Archons to replace the decrypted ones that were lost, on full service contract to his Toolship (at no cost) and unlimited thinkagrams to wherever the Tool wants to send them. Charlescomm gets one Perfect Warlord, complete with a Mathemancy bracer.


    This relies on the scroll being able to teleport Parson to Charlie. Otherwise Parson turning to Charlescomm wouldn't be particularly useful. He still has no way out, because it isn't Charlescomm's turn and he thus still has no move.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 108
     Post Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 6:15 pm 
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    Magothys wrote:
    1. Parson is NOT going to use the scroll.


    I personally think he is, since he is being railroaded this way.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 108
     Post Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 7:06 pm 
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    LTDave wrote:
    Why can't Parson order all the GK units in Spacerock to disband

    We've never seen any indication that anyone but a Ruler has natural thinkamancy that allows them to issue orders at a distance without a medium of communication.

    We've also never seen any indication that anyone but a Ruler can disband someone.


    There is now fire between Parson (in the dungeon) and the dwagons (not in the dungeon).

    He could send Antium and the decrypted soldiers to go harvest all the dwagons. Then he'd be standing by the portal alone with the flames closing in, not knowing which of the following would happen first: (A) Antium et al all croak without achieving their mission, meaning that the red dwagons won't be harvested; (B) Antium et al all croak after achieving their mission, meaning he can found a side; (C) Antium or another soldier makes it back to Parson with very few hits left, and he can croak them or incapacitate them or, if he hasn't gone barbarian already, he can order them to cooperate with being incapacitated (e.g., tied up). Having them incapacitated in front of him would allow him to capture them, opening up the Faq-takes-Efbaum scenario. I would recommend that Parson go barbarian as soon as it is feasible that the dwagons have been harvested, though, since taking control of Spacerock would probably be the only way for Parson to detect that event (B) has happened.

    The possibility that some dwagons took to the Airspace to temporarily avoid burning up, and there may be no way to communicate orders to them from the ground through the noise and commotion, increases the probability of outcome (A). Parson may have already seen those dwagons in the air, and a comment to that effect would be a good way to shut down this "he should have" argument.


    Marie hedged on whether he would win the battle at Spacerock. She said Spacerock was "just another battle" and that he would win "eventually". At the time, I took that to imply that the battle would not go well for GK, and that Parson's personal victory would be another day. Her Prediction is consistent with him using the scroll, even if it results in him becoming Charlie's prisoner, even if Charlie turns him to Charlescomm.

    From Ossomer's story, Marie's Prediction is even consistent with him croaking as long as Wanda and his body get together somehow, which is what I think Fate would arrange if he literally did nothing and refused rescues because the prices were too high. Example of a rescue with a price worse than decryption: Charlie linking him with Sizemore, putting out the fire, tossing Sizemore aside croaked, then linking him with Vanna to turn him - recall that Vanna referred to being "released" by Charlie, so it seems that Charles is in charge of what happens in his link-ups.

    I'd like to see Parson at least try to reach Isaac. He doesn't even know for sure if Charlie cut off Maggie, so assuming that Charlie would be able to block him from contacting Isaac would be silly. (On the other hand, could Charlie impersonate Isaac, causing Parson to think that Isaac is remote-linking him to Sizemore, when it's actually Charlie? :o )

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 108
     Post Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 8:50 pm 
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    Chit Rule Railroad wrote:
    We've never seen any indication that anyone but a Ruler has natural thinkamancy that allows them to issue orders at a distance without a medium of communication.

    I dunno if a Chief Warlord can disband people, but they can give long distance orders: “Unstack and pursue!” she shouted up to the air. “One, climb! Two and three, stay low and put the sun behind you!” Whether or not the gwiffons could actually hear her from down here, they would still follow the intent of her orders.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 108
     Post Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 9:06 pm 
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    ManaCaster wrote:

    Great find!

    Even though they're decrypted ('Pliers) dwagons ('Hammer), I'd still be surprised if Parson couldn't order them to turn to Antium the Barbarian. (Capitalized for absurdity.)

    And his own turning or surrender to Antium certainly would fulfill the connotations of Marie's Prediction: GK technically loses, but Parson comes out OK.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 108
     Post Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 10:47 pm 
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    Doctor Foreman wrote:
    bladestorm wrote:
    Parson can offer himself to Charlie, offering himself in exchange for a contract to either strengthen or preserve GK. GK gets a team of living Archons to replace the decrypted ones that were lost, on full service contract to his Toolship (at no cost) and unlimited thinkagrams to wherever the Tool wants to send them. Charlescomm gets one Perfect Warlord, complete with a Mathemancy bracer.


    This relies on the scroll being able to teleport Parson to Charlie. Otherwise Parson turning to Charlescomm wouldn't be particularly useful. He still has no way out, because it isn't Charlescomm's turn and he thus still has no move.

    It's got nothing to do with the scroll. Charlescomm has a lot of resources and Charlie knows how to bend rues we've never even heard of before. There are also plenty of things casters can do off turn. If Parson offers himself over to Charlie, and if Charlie wants Parson bad enough, then the inferno becomes Charlie's issue as well, and you can bet solid quatloo that Charlie would find a way to keep his shiny new toy from getting too crispy.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 108
     Post Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 11:10 pm 
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    Can Parson order Wanda to start her own side using natural thinkamancy?

    Then everything works so long as she can afford to have a capital.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 108
     Post Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 11:21 pm 
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    @Clik: and where would she find a capital to afford, given that the order was possible?

    Magothys wrote:
    Some more brainstorming. There are three general tactics for getting through the inferno alive:
    1. Leave the city.
    2. Get protection from the fire.
    3. Put out the fire.

    1. Parson is NOT going to use the scroll. We know he wins from Marie's prediction. Leaving the city will require move, either from GK gaining it via the fugitive method (assuming it's possible, I'm confident the doombat is dead since GK has control of the city), or from using someone else's move. I previously theorized that Parson could let Haggar capture him, but with Charlie monitoring the area he could simply order Haggar to let Parson die/kill Parson when he leaves the hex. Haggar's force is still sizable, and without Wanda's decryption ability this could be difficult or impossible to survive out in the open with few units, but it might be a last resort option if they can somehow sneak out or negotiate. They would still need to get through the fire to the hex boundary though, and the portal room is looking blocked off now.

    2. If it were possible to gain protection from the fire from a safe spot, or from the red dwagons / equipment Parson has, Charlie would have known about the possibility and wouldn't consider Parson trapped as is. I don't see this happening.

    3. This would be preferable to leaving the hex. Parson may be able to cast, but it is fairly clear he cannot put out the inferno himself. Sizemore would be needed. This means getting the portal open, and since Stanley isn't going to change the capital, starting a new side is the only option. Parson SHOULD be able to turn without breaking duty, on the grounds that Charlie will eventually destroy GK without his help. The monkey wrench according to Charlie is the units from another side being in the hex. We know from Parson's moral standpoint that he doesn't put himself before units in his command, so he won't disband them if he doesn't have to. But we know from Klog 3 that units can be given orders to turn. Parson could either order them to turn with him simultaneously/turn barbarian and then to the new side/etc. At which point he needs to convince Sizemore to enter the portal without his influence as Sizemore's Chief Warlord. Sizemore might be reluctant, but with the possibility of decrypting Jack/Ace it shouldn't be difficult to persuade him from a "mutual advantage" argument.


    1. "Yes, eventually." That applies to both of your points. Parson will win eventually, and he will leave the city eventually, but probably not today. At least not both. We only know that Parson would survive through today's battle, but whether that counts as a win for Charlie or Parson, that's up for debate, which means the option of casting the scroll is still open. For now, Haggar will not play any role in this, for reasons such as it's not their turn, Parson has nothing that could serve their interest to offer them, no communication could be made with thinkamancy links being cut by Charlie, and whatever help Haggar could offer would be too late since they're too far away. If Parson were going to leave the city, it's either have to be through casting the scroll, or a miracle.

    2. Parson could have a Red Dwagon swallow him whole. That counts as not being burned.

    3. Units can be given order to turn, on the basis that it serves the Ruler's interest. Parson cannot give an order that leads to GK losing a handful of soldiers, some dwagons, and its Chief Warlord to a new side, especially a side that has every reasons not to ally with Gobwin Knob once it has been founded. In this regard the summing spell might prevent him to. In fact, I don't think he can turn barbarian even if all GK's unit around were disbanded.

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