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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 107
 Post Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:28 pm 
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Ditto wrote:
In re: Spinning off your own side. A simple complication might be 'must be an Heir unit'. Heir units are set up to rule sides - just assumed that it'll be your own side someday. It makes sense they would be the people to pounce on Capital sites and grow their own sides. We do not know whether Doothis was an heir or not, but it might make sense to spin off if he was 'across the sea', far removed from his parent side. The only person to threaten this in the comic was Ossomer (in re Haggar), and Ossomer was the heir at the time.

It may or may not require schmuckers to do this, but you certainly require schmuckers to sustain your new side.

I've wondered about that, but since Heir status is the payment used to safeguard and continue an existing side, it might not be that complicated to start an entirely new side. After all, I doubt the barbarian units that randomly pop have heir status, and Erfworld needs to have some mechanism to create entirely new sides.

As to the schmuckers needed to sustain the side, just owning a city will do that.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 107
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:46 pm 
    Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter This user is a Tool! Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
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    Parson will use the scroll to get out of this situation.

    But he will use it on the inferno itself!

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 107
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:55 pm 
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    I don't want to think about where the Inferno calls home...


    As IPTSF has demonstrated, there is a point of diminishing returns when sides get too large. It may be beneficial to have several closely-allied sides rather than one giant side, as with Blair Witch and Bell Witch. They clearly came from the same tribe, yet were distinct sides and worked heavily in concert.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 107
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:07 pm 
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    tisk tisk, Charlie. You tipped your hand. Couldn't help gloating a little? If the Tool sees what you wrote...

    Spite is a powerful motivator.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 107
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:41 pm 
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    Parson has no move. Didn't Bea promote her garrison units the turn she suicided? That would mean that move goes to 0 at the end of turn. And presumably gets refreshed at the start of the turn since no mention of being low on move was made about the retreat to Jetstone.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 107
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:52 pm 
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    joosy wrote:
    So, again.
    Charlie's plan involved trapping Parson in Spacerock by changing the capitol, thus shutting down the portal.
    This is in spite of the fact that the portal would have closed once Parson tool control of the garrison anyway, leaving him cut off from any other support from Gobwin Knob.
    The plan apparently required Charlie to know that an inferno fire was going to break out and wanted to be able to shut the portal before Parson could retreat or take control. I'm just going to chalk that up to very specific off panel Predictamancy until further information is provided.


    If we look at book 1, Charlie keeps changing his plans to improve his position. If we figure that is what he is doing in book two too, then he did not need to know about Sylvia planting fires. All you need is someone who understand the value of increasing control over the gamepieces. Charlie first responds to Parsons dash in the Magic Kingdom with Jojo's scroll, then with blocking Parsons entry to Jetstone, then letting Parson through once he has Slatley in his pocket. Charlie is playing to control Parsons moves, but then that is the kind of chesssplayer he is.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 107
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:53 pm 
    E is for Erfworld Supporter Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter Year of the Dwagon Supporter This user is a Tool! Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter Has collected at least one unit
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    Quote:
    tisk tisk, Charlie. You tipped your hand. Couldn't help gloating a little? If the Tool sees what you wrote...

    Spite is a powerful motivator.


    I agree. My thoughts are something along the idea. " Lord Hamstard's wrath will be terrible and brutal once he has escaped. All his energy will be bent on bringing forth the destruction of Charlie. "

    Until now charlie was an opportunist, now he's the enemy. And with Parson getting more and more savy to that world, having him as an enemy is among the worst things that can happen to you.

    Spoiler: show
    I'm still not convinced jack is dead. I want this to be a giant ruse to show charlies intentions.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 107
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:59 pm 
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    Whispri wrote:
    @Charlie: It's always to soon to gloat. If you must gloat, do it quietly, alone, once your enemy is dead.

    This is what I came to this thread to say. Now he's gone and tipped his hand, because he no doubt thinks there's nothing else Parson can do but die (or turn, maybe).
    I look forward to him being disappointed, again. :)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 107
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:08 pm 
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    I've been lurking here for a while but I just started re-reading Book 2. Some people here have been trying to figure out how Charles knew the city was going to burn.

    It seems pretty clear in this update he's able to snoop on thinkagram. Then there's this update: http://www.erfworld.com/2009/12/book-2- ... 3-page-13/

    Burning the city was Parson's idea and it's almost certain that Charlie intercepted that little tidbit.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 107
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:33 pm 
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    Ozymandias had it right. "I'm not a comic book villain. Do you seriously think I would explain my master stroke to you if there were even the slightest possibility you could affect the outcome? I triggered it 35 minutes ago."

    NEVER gloat until you can see the x's in your opponent's eyes. Even then, not if he's got a Croakamancer with an Arkentool at her disposal, until SHE's got x's in her eyes.

    Also, I think Charlie is going to end up hoist upon his own petard. Before this, Parson has always seen him as an intelligent opponent, but that was about it. Now, it's personal.

    And you know what would hurt Charlie worse than killing him? Blowing up the Arkendish. And we all know where it is. He's only got the one city, after all. Sure, it's heavily defended, but he's faced off worse odds before. And you know what? His Toolship might well end up okaying the mission, considering how badly HE hates Charlie.

    Of course, first he's got to survive this trap, but there's still options available to him.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 107
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:19 pm 
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    One thing I was wrong about- I thought "Control-Z" meant undoing Parsons last action, which would be taking the city- so I assumed that we would see the city razed more or less first thing this update. I was wrong, though.

    I do, however, fully anticipate seeing the city razed withing a few updates. Like, 3, at the most. Not next update, though. Charlie and Parson have some talking to do.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 107
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:35 pm 
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    CarniDollMancer wrote:
    Problem B: Even if Parson starts a new side, what is the motivation for Sizemore to turn?


    Why would Sizemore need to turn? He would be allowed to visit an allied side, wouldn't he?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 107
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:22 pm 
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    ManaCaster wrote:
    CarniDollMancer wrote:
    Problem A: Parson has no shmuckers. He has no individual purse that we have heard of, and there has been no hint that he has a gem hidden on him anywhere which he could trade in. Jillian mentions her purse a couple of times earlier, and specifies that it is separate from the side's (meaning that she cannot just dip into it at her discretion, even as chief). Some things she must pay for herself, out of her pocket, and when she went barbarian, the only money she kept was her purse.

    However, I do not remember hearing that it cost a lot to start a side. Stanley devotes himself to it when he goes for Faq's old capital site, and Don only mentions giving Jillian money to grow her side, not to start it. (I may be wrong on either of these points pretty easily. I just reread the whole series and got to the brand new stuff, but I have not looked back since reading this one to update my facts. If I am incorrect about evidence, let me know.) So it is possible that Parson is going to start a side to get out, but not be able to maintain it himself.

    The city itself will generate schmuckers. Sure, he'd need external funding to restore any lost levels with any sort of speed, but it won't stop him from actually creating a side.


    but the production of shmuckers will not matter if he has no shmuckers to start a city that requires shmuckers to start. My point was that it is is possible that starting a side requires money, and Parson has none.

    ManaCaster wrote:
    CarniDollMancer wrote:
    Problem B: Even if Parson starts a new side, what is the motivation for Sizemore to turn? Sizemore is not particularly fond of Parson, and he seems to be loyal to Stanley of his own free will so far. If it is not his own free will, we have at least seen no evidence of a spell or a compulsion like Wanda's fate. I believe that Sizemore was probably popped at Gobwin Knob and is naturally motivated to serve that side, just like Wanda wanted to serve Goodminton, and Jillian was naturally inclined to serve Faq even though she did not like most of it's people. Parson's turning would be a betrayal of Sizemore.

    He is fond of Parson, he just doesn't like how Parson makes him do things he doesn't like. As to turning, why would he need to turn? One of the best aspects of splitting of the side is that they can pool their casters, thereby getting around the caster limit

    Heck, it might even be best if a new Spacerock side just has any casters it pops turn over to Gobwin Knob, but share usage. We don't know for sure how the caster limit works, but if it is based on how many casters you have right now, this would be an excellent way to keep producing more.


    Unless Stanley orders Sizemore not to help Parson, in which case: game over Parson (without other aid). Stanley is quite likely to childishly decide not to help. He has been shown to have that attitude, and for all we know, he thinks Parson just cut off the Thinkagram. If Stanley ordered Sizemore not to help, he would have to turn in order to help, and I am not convinced he would do that, and also not convinced that Stanley would tell him anything besides, "Let the Hamster burn."

    ManaCaster wrote:
    CarniDollMancer wrote:
    Problem D: Charlie is a Carnymancer with the Arkendish... What if Charlie has been getting in people's heads and making it so that none of the predictions that Delphie or Marie made has been correct? Obviously he is the one who taught Olive how to pervert her magic to make weapons. A Carnymancer would probably know how to do that sort of trick. This one is more a wild guess off the cuff, but there is a good chance that Charlie has been running everything, or at least messing with it and letting it go crazy. This would give him access to a lot more business, and the 'Dish seems powerful enough to let Charlie play with other Mancers.

    I've kind of been wondering whether Charlie has the capacity to mess with minds too. But the Thinkamancers should be aware of what Charlie is and isn't capable of. Anyways, what does this have to do with being unable to split off the side?


    Absolutely nothing. that was just wandom speculation (yes intentional misspelling). I should have specified that.

    Edited: added a second 'f' to 'off' in the second to last response. Also added the sentence following that, because I liked it.

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    A: It is Shockmancy, not ShockAmancy.
    B: Faq as a side is not an acronym.
    C: Starting a theory from the point of view that characters have given false information (knowingly or unknowingly) is not a valid way to build an argument.


    Last edited by CarniDollMancer on Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 107
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:27 pm 
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    j_scheibel wrote:
    Quote:
    Spoiler: show
    I'm still not convinced jack is dead. I want this to be a giant ruse to show charlies intentions.


    That makes no sense. Stanley even knew he was dead. This means that he definitely was. If Jack was not dead then Stanley would now even have the idea to say anything. Nothing would tell him that some other unit had died and should be presented as Jack. Essentially, after the Tool talking there is no doubt that Jack is dead because he would not have mentioned him if he were alive.

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    A couple things:
    A: It is Shockmancy, not ShockAmancy.
    B: Faq as a side is not an acronym.
    C: Starting a theory from the point of view that characters have given false information (knowingly or unknowingly) is not a valid way to build an argument.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 107
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:38 pm 
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    Given the current information, the only conclusion I can come to is that Charlie is working with some very specific Predictamancy.
    Trapping Parson in Jetstone was going to happen regardless as the portal would disappear when GK took the garrison. Having Slately change capitols only makes sense if the goal is to keep Parson from retreating back into the Magic Kingdom. That would mean there would have to be some threat BEFORE Gobwin Knob took control of the Jetstone garrison. My initial thought on this before the inferno threat was that Charlie had an army with enough move and enough force to overcome Gk's units in the garrison.

    The inferno happened as a result of a mistake by Lady Sylvia and/or a lucky break by Ace when he had his golems rip open the stomach of a green dragon. Charlie and not-Slately's thinkspace confab happened before that. It also happened before Ace was allowed to lead his cloth golems. Ergo, Charlie's plan could NOT have included the inferno unless he had some foreknowledge of it which leads me to my conclusion of Predictamancy.

    Other evidence: JoJo and the scroll. The scroll had to have been prepared ahead of time. I do not believe it was created after Parson indicated he was heading into the Magic Kingdom. Parson also did NOT reveal his intention to go into the MK via Thinkagram or Eyebook so Charlie could not have known. I concede that the scroll may have been prepared ahead of time with the intent of waiting for an opportune time to deploy it. When Parson comes into the Magic Kingdom, JoJo is waiting and is not surprised. Ergo, JoJo had to have known of Parson's re-arrival ahead of time. All of the other Predictamancers were aware of this event which bolsters my conclusion that Charlie is using Predictamancy.

    There is also the issue of the prophecies surrounding Parson. One of the predictions is, I surmise, that Charlie will be defeated by a summoned Warlord. Charlie may have assumed that came to pass when Judy Gale drove him from EfBaum but now worries that Parson is now the real threat to him. Charlie may be trying to thwart a prediction and choosing his own 'hard way' by trying to eliminate Parson.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 107
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:07 pm 
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    Charlie could know the state of the fire (and the battle as a whole) simply from the bat.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 107
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:17 pm 
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    joosy wrote:
    There is also the issue of the prophecies surrounding Parson. One of the predictions is, I surmise, that Charlie will be defeated by a summoned Warlord. Charlie may have assumed that came to pass when Judy Gale drove him from EfBaum but now worries that Parson is now the real threat to him. Charlie may be trying to thwart a prediction and choosing his own 'hard way' by trying to eliminate Parson.


    Rather unlikely, considering Charlie summoned Judy Gale.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 107
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:45 pm 
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    CarniDollMancer wrote:
    ManaCaster wrote:
    The city itself will generate schmuckers. Sure, he'd need external funding to restore any lost levels with any sort of speed, but it won't stop him from actually creating a side.


    but the production of shmuckers will not matter if he has no shmuckers to start a city that requires shmuckers to start. My point was that it is is possible that starting a side requires money, and Parson has none.

    So long as the city still has a single level left, it'll be fine. The city certainly hasn't turned into an ash hex yet.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 107
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:48 pm 
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    cheeseaholic wrote:
    Charlie could know the state of the fire (and the battle as a whole) simply from the bat.

    The problem is that the thinkagram to Jojo to help Parson get to Spacerock happened after Sylvia talked about lighting up the garrison, but before the counterattack pushed her into actually doing it.

    I think "Sylvia's" idea could have been a successful suggestion spell. Since the 'Dish can link remotely, it seems plausible that it can implant suggestions remotely.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 107
     Post Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:31 am 
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    cheeseaholic wrote:
    Charlie could know the state of the fire (and the battle as a whole) simply from the bat.


    Its not a matter of Charlie knowing the state of the fire or the battle.

    Its a matter of linear chronological events:

    1) Parson decides to head into Jetstone by using the Magic Kingdom. He has Sizemore dig a tunnel while Wanda is securing the Portal room.
    2) All Jetstone units (except for Cubbins) are outside of the garrison. Tramennis is preparing to reestablish a presence in the garrison to prevent the capture of Jetstone.
    3) Charlie has the thinkspace confab with not-Slately where the plan to switch capitols is laid out.
    4) Tramennis is made heir and ordered out of the city so that not-Slately can lead the charge into the garrison.
    5) Gk units fail to find Cubbins so THEN Sylvia decides to start the fire. (not an inferno and can probably be stopped by the pinks or other units at this point)
    6) Wanda and jack (allegedly) enter the Magic Kingdom to check on Parson.
    7) Charlie's/JoJo's plan to keep Parson from going into the Magic Kingdom changes into letting Parson through.
    8) Parson enters Jetstone and smells the smoke. It is not an inferno yet and they still have options (pinks, etc.)
    9) non-Slately then switches the capitol thus closing the portal.
    10) Parson heads to the throne room to confront not-Slately.
    11) the explosion occurs that sets the fire to inferno level AND eliminates any Gk units who could help other than the reds.

    So.. without predictamancy, Charlie could not have included the inferno in his original plan.

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