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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
 Post Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:36 am 
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erianaiel wrote:
He told, or tricked, the Slately clone into changing capitols as soon as Parson entered the trap, knowing that Parson would be without move in an inferno even if he managed to croak the king and remaining caster(s) in the ruins of the city.
I think this bit is in error unless Charlie does indeed have predictamancy.

Timing is never clear in Erfworld, but we have a causality chain in which:
1. Charlie tells Slately to trap Parson in the city. http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -09-19.jpg
2. Slately and musters for a counter-attack to take the throne.
3. Causing Sylvia to light the garrison on fire. http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -10-10.jpg

Now, admittedly, 3 could have been in response to 2, which we see Tram doing even before he learns of the plan, but this would imply both that we are seeing the updates out of order and that Charlie begins his call to Fakely without the plan to trap Parson (since Tram is right next to Fakely and not mustering his hosts), and that 2 and 3 happen within the span of 4 panels of dialogue or so, and somehow Charlie learns this while on a thinkagram and changes his plan.

It all seems far more likely to me that Charlie just wanted to trap Parson in Spacerock for another reason, and that we have yet to see that shoe fall. Fire was just a bonus, and now Parson is several flavors of f***ed. Anyway, the story is getting difficult to follow. I'm not sure if this is because or in spite of how much we forumites tend to over-think things.
halibut wrote:
Shouldn't panel 2 be "Come here, you little Boop!"
Parson has been able to swear in Erfworld since the end of book 1.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:11 am 
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    I have to say my sympathy for Parson is kind of circling the drain here. He has no more reason to be personally outraged at the death of a friend than anyone else engaged in this conflict. People are dying left and right, and he's helping with the slaughter and gets indignant that ONE of the casualties is someone he knew.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:27 am 
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    EvilCoatrack wrote:
    Parson's Duty

    I don't think that Parson really HAS Duty. The summoning spell makes him obey orders, and compels him to try his plans, but I'm not sure this functions in the same way as normal commanders' Duty.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:52 pm 
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    halibut wrote:
    Shouldn't panel 2 be "Come here, you little Boop!"
    Nope. Reread the end of Book 1. It's well established that Parson is no longer subject to the Erfworld language censor.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:34 pm 
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    teratorn wrote:
    drachefly wrote:
    And I have no idea what people are talking about with Ace moving his arm. Looks steady to me.


    Frame 1, Ace has one arm way to the side of his head. Frame 10, head is resting on both arms. He moved between those frames, though it's possible he died before Slately was croaked, but then why bother with showing the change? My take is that he is still alive.

    Ace is visible, while Cubbins was unconscious but hidden, so maybe you don't need to claim as prisoner an incapacitated enemy that for all purposes is accounted for. The problem I see with it is that Brother Orwell in book 0 had to be claimed. Was he still conscious?


    He isn't resting on both. His right arm (arm on our left) is behind a rock that is further in the foreground.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:09 pm 
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    teratorn wrote:
    Doctor Foreman wrote:
    Again, it's a trick of perspective. His head is behind his arms in Frame 10, not on top of them. The uneven nature of the debris creates the impression you're getting.


    It's not as much the head as the right hand.


    I think you're mistaking his right shoulder for his right hand.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:33 pm 
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    Jeivar wrote:
    I have to say my sympathy for Parson is kind of circling the drain here. He has no more reason to be personally outraged at the death of a friend than anyone else engaged in this conflict. People are dying left and right, and he's helping with the slaughter and gets indignant that ONE of the casualties is someone he knew.

    " no more reason to be personally outraged at the death of a friend than anyone else engaged in this conflict"

    That doesn't mean Parson doesn't have reason to be outraged, rather rest also have reason to be outraged. They all don't like losing their friends and family. That is how war works.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:55 pm 
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    Jeivar wrote:
    I have to say my sympathy for Parson is kind of circling the drain here. He has no more reason to be personally outraged at the death of a friend than anyone else engaged in this conflict. People are dying left and right, and he's helping with the slaughter and gets indignant that ONE of the casualties is someone he knew.

    It makes sense to me that he's outraged about the conflict itself and it makes sense to me for him to direct that outrage specifically at the guy who was the King of Jetstone when RCC1 was formed. Toolism (and its extreme tactics) is largely a response to Royalism (and its ganging-up strategy). Even as a friend of Ansom, Vinny thought there was something odd about Jetstone's decision to form the RCC1.

    Then factor in that Parson arrived in Erfworld too late to witness whatever it was that Stanley did that outraged everyone, so he's only seen GK invade sides that attacked GK as part of RCC1 and re-dedicated themselves to opposing GK in RCC2. Add in that Parson's American, so would tend to be biased against Royalty, and that the RCC1 is the reason that he was summoned into this grimbright world. He can easily blame Slately for every painful thing he's witnessed, most recently the death of Jack.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:40 pm 
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    To everybody who keeps pointing out the fact that Parson swore in Book 2 Page 106 - he's been doing it fairly often since the final page of Book 1.

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    Also, it depends rather heavily on Wanda ... not being Wanda.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:04 pm 
    Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter This user is a Tool! Year of the Dwagon Supporter This user was a Tool before it was cool Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter
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    I need to respond to this one, here.

    zyxophoj wrote:
    This is interesting. I can think of a few ways to fix this mess, but none of them are good. Here's my least bad option:

    Move Sizemore and Wanda to MK

    They're already there.

    Quote:
    Stanley changes capital to Spacerock

    This one works.

    Quote:
    Move Sizemore and Wanda into Spacerock, get Parson into MK

    First part works, second part doesn't. Parson has to be there to make sure his plan works.

    Quote:
    Sizemore puts out the fire, then returns to MK

    This works.

    Quote:
    Stack everything in the city of Gobwin Knob into one big stack, led by Stanley. Do the same in Spacerock, only led by Wanda.

    Why? Besides, you forgot to decrypt Jack.

    Quote:
    Stanley orders Wanda's stack to turn to Goodminton

    We have reason to believe that Stanley doesn't even know about Goodminton.

    Quote:
    Wanda claims Spacerock for Goodminton
    At this point, Stanley is the victim of a self-inflicted capital strike. He probably has nothing but his stack, Sizemore, Maggie, and Parson (I'm assuming, perhaps unwisely, that Parson in the MK does not disband). Anything in a city goes barbarian, anything outside disappears.
    Stanley claims Gobwin Knob(city) for Gobwin Knob (side)
    Wanda can now return to Stanley via the magic kingdom and stop being the ruler of her own side - if she wants to, that is.

    None of this is necessary.

    Quote:
    The advantage of this is that it can all be done off-turn. The disadvantage is that Stanley loses every city not named "Gobwin Knob" or "Spacerock". Also, it depends rather heavily on Wanda ... not being Wanda.


    The slow way to do it involves moving Stanley to Spacerock and back via Dwagon-relay. This seems dangerous - it all depends on nobody grabbing Spacerock before it's Gobwin Knob's turn - and I think both Faq and Haggar might be able to do that.

    Stanley doesn't need to get to Spacerock to change the capital from GK. He just needs to be in GK.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:01 pm 
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    MarbitChow wrote:
    halibut wrote:
    Shouldn't panel 2 be "Come here, you little Boop!"
    Nope. Reread the end of Book 1. It's well established that Parson is no longer subject to the Erfworld language censor.


    Because he's a player, not a gamepiece! (hurl, woosh woosh woosh, splash)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:06 am 
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    http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2012-08-29.jpg
    If Sylvia really keeps returning from death then the Control-Z must undo enough actions to prevent her death.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:37 am 
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    I think that Parson will simply change the city level, by razing or rebuilding. However, I hope that the scroll that Parson has teleports the target to Charlie's living room. And that Parson gets the capital changed so that he can get Maggie to cast it on the fire.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:47 am 
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    Kreistor wrote:
    Dancing Cthulhu wrote:
    We don't see it, since we don't need to see Slately popping archons pretending to be chimneys and roof shingles. That last panel looks pretty solid that Slately had spotted the Archon veiled as a chimney.


    I don't deny that it is possible they are all dead. I just think that Foolamancy always has a chance of working, especially in the hands of experience.


    That is true. I just always tend not to put too much stock in Archon magic - it is very good, especially when used in teams, but they aren't dedicated casters like Jack. If their foolamancy was better the fight against Slately and co probably would have gone better.

    Chit Rule Railroad wrote:
    Jeivar wrote:
    I have to say my sympathy for Parson is kind of circling the drain here. He has no more reason to be personally outraged at the death of a friend than anyone else engaged in this conflict. People are dying left and right, and he's helping with the slaughter and gets indignant that ONE of the casualties is someone he knew.

    It makes sense to me that he's outraged about the conflict itself and it makes sense to me for him to direct that outrage specifically at the guy who was the King of Jetstone when RCC1 was formed. Toolism (and its extreme tactics) is largely a response to Royalism (and its ganging-up strategy). Even as a friend of Ansom, Vinny thought there was something odd about Jetstone's decision to form the RCC1.

    Then factor in that Parson arrived in Erfworld too late to witness whatever it was that Stanley did that outraged everyone, so he's only seen GK invade sides that attacked GK as part of RCC1 and re-dedicated themselves to opposing GK in RCC2. Add in that Parson's American, so would tend to be biased against Royalty, and that the RCC1 is the reason that he was summoned into this grimbright world. He can easily blame Slately for every painful thing he's witnessed, most recently the death of Jack.


    I also think it might be a bit of unresolved guilt. He cries "for Bogroll" as he charges into battle - a guy he ordered to his death in a sneaky move. Jack (barring shenanigans) pretty much kills himself carrying out Parson's orders - no enemy action required. Really, to date, Parson and his own friends have been better at killing themselves than their enemies have, beyond their enemies creating circumstances for them to die in.

    That said of course, he is kind of on the first side we've seen that's shown consistently carrying out mass executions and burning cities of prisoners to death (even if they sort of get better) with a goal of wiping out all other sides (unless they join and help Erfworld do that) and being all mind slave-y (as the other sides see it) - actions which, even in the perpetual war of Erfworld, don't seem common for rulers or overlords. I could kind of understand other individuals feeling they have more reason to be angry than Parson (though I don't think we've got anyone as bothered as Parson by executions and city burning yet, so maybe not).

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:18 am 
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    Oh, my, I've just noticed!
    On the panel 10 (the one with Bogroll statue) half-blind pink dwagon rests his head on statue's hand, and this statue's hair looks exactly like Jack's, so apparently he also already qualifies for fallen hero of Gobwin Knob.
    This statue lies approximately where Jack's body did. Is his body even intact?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 2:04 am 
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    Quote:
    I think that Parson will simply change the city level, by razing or rebuilding. However, I hope that the scroll that Parson has teleports the target to Charlie's living room. And that Parson gets the capital changed so that he can get Maggie to cast it on the fire.


    I think it's a long shot but I was entertaining something similar... imagine him casting the scroll on the fire... and sending it to Columbus, Ohio.

    Here's another unrelated brutal idea involving Ctrl-Z after re-reading the fire rules: Parson and company all burn up in the Inferno. Wanda comes in after the inferno is gone and decrypts them all, including Parson. Now that would drastically change the story...

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 2:43 am 
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    elecampane wrote:
    Oh, my, I've just noticed!
    On the panel 10 (the one with Bogroll statue) half-blind pink dwagon rests his head on statue's hand, and this statue's hair looks exactly like Jack's, so apparently he also already qualifies for fallen hero of Gobwin Knob.
    This statue lies approximately where Jack's body did. Is his body even intact?


    You're joking, right?

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    Yeah..

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 2:48 am 
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    effataigus wrote:
    erianaiel wrote:
    He told, or tricked, the Slately clone into changing capitols as soon as Parson entered the trap, knowing that Parson would be without move in an inferno even if he managed to croak the king and remaining caster(s) in the ruins of the city.
    I think this bit is in error unless Charlie does indeed have predictamancy.

    Timing is never clear in Erfworld, but we have a causality chain in which:
    1. Charlie tells Slately to trap Parson in the city. http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -09-19.jpg
    2. Slately and musters for a counter-attack to take the throne.
    3. Causing Sylvia to light the garrison on fire. http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -10-10.jpg

    Now, admittedly, 3 could have been in response to 2, which we see Tram doing even before he learns of the plan, but this would imply both that we are seeing the updates out of order and that Charlie begins his call to Fakely without the plan to trap Parson (since Tram is right next to Fakely and not mustering his hosts), and that 2 and 3 happen within the span of 4 panels of dialogue or so, and somehow Charlie learns this while on a thinkagram and changes his plan.


    Actually I do not think you are correct here.
    Sylvia started the plan for setting the city on fire soon after Jack and Wanda traveled to the magic kingdom and she was left unsupervised. There was quite a bit of discussion between Sylvia and Archer about her daring to set the city on fire to the point of inferno, and Archer quite thoroughly searching through the garrison for stray surviving Jetstone forces.
    When Tramennis left it was pointed out to him that the city was being set on fire and he declined to return and help. Similarly when Slately charged for the throne room he commented that his city was on fire.

    So, it seems to me that the plan to let Parson into the city was created because it was about to burn down and because Charlie had a reliable way to trap Parson in the city once he arrived. My guess is the whole 'please hold for Charlie' that Slately was subjected to once he reached the throne was the point where Charlie told Jojo to make sure Parson got through that portal. He had all the pieces of his trap in place at that point: burning city with fire almost out of control. King on the throne who could close the portal before Parson could turn around and flee, and Jojo who could ensure that Parson could get to the city.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 3:47 am 
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    Nah, look at the pages.

    86 Sylvia and Archer discuss what to do - http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2012-08-29.jpg
    89 Charlie reveals his plan to trap Parson - http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2012-10-10.jpg
    92 Sylvia lights up the garrison - http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2012-10-10.jpg
    94 Jojo gets instructed to let Parson through - http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2012-10-26.jpg
    95 Jetstone realises the garrison is on fire - http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2012-11-12.jpg

    So unless Charlie can listen in to live conversations there was not enough information to tell that the garrison would be burning when Parson arrived.

    And honestly I think it suits Charlie better to play for position (letting Parson through because he can trap him) then playing for a particular gambit.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 6:27 am 
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    elecampane wrote:
    Oh, my, I've just noticed!
    On the panel 10 (the one with Bogroll statue) half-blind pink dwagon rests his head on statue's hand, and this statue's hair looks exactly like Jack's, so apparently he also already qualifies for fallen hero of Gobwin Knob.
    This statue lies approximately where Jack's body did. Is his body even intact?


    At the extremely high risk of missing some form of sarcasm, facetiousness, or japery...that is his body.

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