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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
 Post Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:26 pm 
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Whispri wrote:
Kreistor wrote:
3. Stanley in the background of the last panel is called "foreshadowing".

Gobwin Knob's livery is in the background of the last panel, I feel it is worth marking that distinction.


I don't know, Stanley burning may really be some foreshadowing that the bad news aren't finished yet.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:07 pm 
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    This wouldn't be the first time that sort of symbolism has come up regarding stanley; namely in one of the text updates he made a fireworks show with a representation of himself in it, the grand finale looked like his head exploded from the ground.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:27 pm 
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    bladestorm wrote:
    Jack's death is looking a lot like Sylvia's first death. Maybe Parson hires a carnymancer to cast over him for ten rounds, and the heir that was supposed to pop revives Jack instead. There's got to be a reason that portion of the story was included. Maybe instead of Jojo fawning over Sylvia, it can be the chick in the tophat and tights fawning over a roguish knave.


    But.. that's not Harley Quinn's costume...

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:34 pm 
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    teratorn wrote:
    Frame 1, Ace has one arm way to the side of his head. Frame 10, head is resting on both arms. He moved between those frames, though it's possible he died before Slately was croaked, but then why bother with showing the change? My take is that he is still alive.


    Again, it's a trick of perspective. His head is behind his arms in Frame 10, not on top of them. The uneven nature of the debris creates the impression you're getting.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:30 pm 
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    This forum mostly seems to be an echo of a question that we posed as a forum many threads ago... specifically why "trap" Parson in a capital city when he was trying to trap himself? What did swapping capitals do that nomming Slately did not?

    The answer may pertain to the answer to "what happens when a capital is conquered?" Not that I know the answer to that question (nor would I trust anyone who claimed to without citations).

    My favorite answer to the question has just been crossed off the list: which stated that Charlie trapped Parson in Spacerock to keep him away from GK rather than to keep him in Spacerock. I thought mebbe a strike on Stanley would happen off turn and before Parson trapped himself. I haven't given up on this happening, but it can no longer explain the capital swap since Parson has already trapped himself.

    Now, arguably, Parson could have held off on feeding Slately to the dwagon until after he ran out the portal if they hadn't tried to trap him, but only because s**t went down just so. Also, it took a pretty sizable investment of forces to get it to go down this way. Slately could have instead just disbanded Cubbins the moment Parson walked through and Parson still would have been trapped... though the blaze wouldn't have spread so much if he had, Parson still may have more living firefighters to help, and Parson may have been able to stick his head through right off the bat and say "hay, I know you said no casters because muffin, but FIRE, and FIRE>muffin... gimme Sizemore plx."

    Blah blah blah, I'm still confused as to Charlie and Slately's motivations. Yes, it worked out for them, but I'm not seeing how their scheming really helped that... +1 to Charlie having a minor in predicatamancy.

    Also, kudos to the force-able JS recapture of Spacerock theory. Clever, that! That said, it would be a phyrric victory, and I'd have a hard time believing that Parson wouldn't get snatched off the road by any one of the hundreds of Haggarites and CComm operatives "in the battlespace" if he and Antium were just chilling on just outside of the ashen wreck formerly known as Spacerock. They wouldn't have many friends left for a ways around besides the handful of remanining reds. That said, this outcome is among the best possible outcomes unless Parson gets a capital swap going or does something really outlandish.

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    Last edited by effataigus on Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:33 pm 
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    Mogster2 wrote:
    But can Parson flee the garrison without any move?

    Yes. Right now, Gobwin Knob controls the city so their units can move freely within it. (Well, as freely as they can given that most of the city is on fire ;) )

    As escaped Jetstone prisoners, Parson and Antium move on Jetstone's turn - good enough to get out of the city, watch it burn down, get back in again, and reclaim the city. Still, units have to evade a trap to get out of an inferno so they'll be losing even more units. Ouch. This does allow more than nothing to survive but it's looking pretty grim. I'm starting to like those plans which involve getting Sizemore in to put the fire out a lot better.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:43 pm 
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    Dancing Cthulhu wrote:
    I'm a bit rusty on rules, where do we learn just loosing a capital is enough for all that to happen?

    If the ruler dies without an heir we know all their cities "freeze" and units in the field disband. If a heir is in the field when they loose their cities/ruler they go barbarian, and any units not in their stack disband and treasury is limited to their own purse. If a garrison is captured all units for that side in that city are captured... but I don't think just losing the capital is enough to wipe armies in the field and turn all their cities neutral.

    Ever since dwagon fall Jetstone had been playing as if there was a very good chance Spacerock, the capital, was going to be lost. Trem was planning on evacuating Slately and then either attacking the GK forces or retreating with all the Jetstone forces in Spacerock. But Trem wasn't heir and there was no talk of changing the capital before hand - if just loosing a capital turns all cities for that side "neutral" and disbands non-heirs/rulers then Trem and the entire army with him would have been doomed the moment they left and GK claimed the garrison, and he certainly wasn't acting like he was making a choice between losing an army to Wanda or losing an army to disbanding. Changing capitals only popped up fairly late in the game at Charlie's instigation.

    Plus (might be wrong here) Faq lost its capital, but don't they still have more units then could possibly have been in King Banhammer's stack alone? (Jillian was safe as heir)

    I think it's plausible that Faq's evacuation consisted of a single stack, especially given that they chose to stash some casters in the Magic Kingdom where they would be inaccessible until Faq had a capital again. It could be that those casters were stashed in the Magic Kingdom so that they could earn their own upkeep, or it could be that they didn't fit in the stack.


    Regarding Jetstone, you make a good point that they didn't think of switching capitals on their own. It might be that the Jetstone Ruler would have had the opportunity to re-assign the capital to Jetstone city automatically if Spacerock fell, or it could be that (as some believe) a Side doesn't fall until it loses all of its cities. It seems likely that there is a rule that can cause a Side to fall even if the Ruler is still alive, because Stanley was planning to "start a new Side" at the ruins of Faq when he fled from GK. I doubt a Capital Side (as that is what non-tribes are called) can exist without a capital, but there is no clear evidence of that.

    Either way, that Jetstone would have fallen because of losing Spacerock no longer seems likely to me, so we need a new counter-argument to joosy's suggestion that Jetstone should have handed over Spacerock to GK instead of delivering Clonely to the throneroom.

    It is quite plausible that Charlie wanted an inferno, and the Jetstone strike force helped make that happen. He could be hoping it will kill Parson; he could be anticipating using his own archons and/or a weakened Haggar to attack Spacerock and thus wants its defenses destroyed; he could be hoping to prevent GK from razing it for cash. In any case, it's not clear if Sylvia would have lit up the garrison if Jetstone didn't invade it. Pressuring Sylvia into creating an uncontrollable firestorm while at the same time evacuating all Jetstone troops from the garrison probably didn't seem to be compatible goals. Plus, Charlie is happy to see Jetstone resources be consumed.

    From Jetstone's perspective, handing Spacerock over to GK without the strike force would have required something very unpalatable. Since Cubbins was incapacitated, he couldn't be ordered to evacuate or surrender or make a suicidal attack. He was also inaccessible; Ace found him and rescued him, but they didn't know that he would succeed. Moreover, Trammenis may have disagreed with Ace about which caster was more valuable to them, and if Ace hadn't gone over Trammenis's head, Trammenis might have preferred to keep Ace and give up on Cubbins. With Cubbins incapacitated and inaccessible, the only way to control the timing of handing Spacerock over to GK would have been to disband him. That would have been a bitter pill to swallow.


    zyxophoj wrote:
    As escaped Jetstone prisoners, Parson and Antium move on Jetstone's turn - good enough to get out of the city, watch it burn down, get back in again, and reclaim the city. Still, units have to evade a trap to get out of an inferno so they'll be losing even more units. Ouch. This does allow more than nothing to survive but it's looking pretty grim. I'm starting to like those plans which involve getting Sizemore in to put the fire out a lot better.

    A nit-pick: they wouldn't be able to reclaim the city because there would be no city to reclaim. There would only be a city site, and it wouldn't even have anything to forage for upkeep. Good luck keeping the red dwagons fed.


    Last edited by Chit Rule Railroad on Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:52 pm 
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    Doctor Foreman wrote:
    Again, it's a trick of perspective. His head is behind his arms in Frame 10, not on top of them. The uneven nature of the debris creates the impression you're getting.


    It's not as much the head as the right hand.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:52 pm 
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    effataigus wrote:
    This forum mostly seems to be an echo of a question that we posed as a forum many threads ago... specifically why "trap" Parson in a capital city when he was trying to trap himself? What did swapping capitals do that nomming Slately did not?

    The answer may pertain to the answer to "what happens when a capital is conquered?" Not that I know the answer to that question (nor would I trust anyone who claimed to without citations).

    My favorite answer to the question has just been crossed off the list: which stated that Charlie trapped Parson in Spacerock to keep him away from GK rather than to keep him in Spacerock. I thought mebbe a strike on Stanley would happen off turn and before Parson trapped himself. I haven't given up on this happening, but it can no longer explain the capital swap since Parson has already trapped himself.

    Now, arguably, Parson could have held off on feeding Slately to the dwagon until after he ran out the portal if they hadn't tried to trap him, but only because s**t went down just so. Also, it took a pretty sizable investment of forces to get it to go down this way. Slately could have instead just disbanded Cubbins the moment Parson walked through and Parson still would have been trapped... though the blaze wouldn't have spread so much if he had, Parson still may have more living firefighters to help, and Parson may have been able to stick his head through right off the bat and say "hay, I know you said no casters because muffin, but FIRE, and FIRE>muffin... gimme Sizemore plx."

    Blah blah blah, I'm still confused as to Charlie and Slately's motivations. Yes, it worked out for them, but I'm not seeing how their scheming really helped that... +1 to Charlie having a minor in predicatamancy.

    Also, kudos to the force-able JS recapture of Spacerock theory. Clever, that! That said, it would be a phyrric victory, and I'd have a hard time believing that Parson wouldn't get snatched off the road by any one of the hundreds of Haggarites and CComm operatives "in the battlespace" if he and Antium were just chilling on just outside of the ashen wreck formerly known as Spacerock. They wouldn't have many friends left for a ways around besides the handful of remanining reds. That said, this outcome is among the best possible outcomes unless Parson gets a capital swap going or does something really outlandish.

    Maybe Charlie is expecting another Volcano Eruption, as if it were a special Spell that only Parson has. Cast the spell and then step into the Magick Kingdom to be safe from the blast. Cut off his access to the MK, and he can't use his supernova nucular strike from orbit attack without harming himself. Ergo, no ability to retreat safely to MK means no ability to pull another Volcano Eruption.

    I like another idea better though. Charlie has some other motivation that trapping Parson was either only step 1 of 50, or it was to distract the king away from what Charlie was really after. My preference is for the latter. It's not so much that he needed the farmhouse burned down, he just needed the farmer to not be protecting the hen house or closing the barn door.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:05 pm 
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    I like the raze city idea, but am thinking Parson may raze & rebuild the city. Not sure if raze would put out the inferno on its own. When Goblin Knob was rebuilt the city came back "fully intact", so perhaps the same could be done here to address the inferno.

    http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2 ... rtyard.jpg

    Another exploit along the same lines would be to upgrade the city. Presumably changing the city level would reset it. I don't think that that "Control-Z" reference would fit with upgrading though... but ...can you demote a city? It would effectively undo a previous action and would be a lot cheaper. It may even give you some funds for the treasury.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:55 pm 
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    Salem wrote:
    teratorn wrote:
    Salem wrote:
    Conquering a side's capital and sole heir gives you all their cities.


    Losing the city and the heir you lose the treasury. Without a treasury units on other cities should immediately disband, but I think you need to put at least a golem to claim control of a city production.


    I was just going by what Jillian said, "With one chop, we’re gonna take over the biggest side in the world.” It doesn't sound like she is implying that they'll destroy them but take over them. I really wasn't getting into what it taking over a city implies, what you need for different functions, as I have no clue what so ever. I just got the impression people thought the cities would go neutral, which I believe what Jillian says at least implies that isn't true.


    I *THINK* That Jillian is getting a little over excited. She's the Chief Warlord of her Side, which is barely clinging to life despite everything that has happened, and she thinks that she is about to off the Big Bad of her Arc. Knowing that Jillian is every bit the expansionist, battle loving warlord, it's not hard to believe that she's imagining all those neutral cities after Olive is Anne Boleyned. Over the next few turns, I imagine her, Wanda, Jack, and maybe someone with golem making capability if Faq has them could make a run of as many cities as they could get too claiming/razing. No, nothing in the story states this specifically, I'm just interpreting the information given through the filter of my take on Jillian's character. But, we can guess that Faq would be working from deep in the heart of Haffaton territory, while any of the neighbors would be working from the outside in, and running into each other along the way. The potential is that FAQ could easily claim the biggest piece of the pie, at least up to the diminishing shmuckers wall, before anyone else got close, then you start razing cities in a wide ring around your territory and then return to being a mercenary side.

    But yeah, again, just my opinion, but that was my take on it, Jillian is seeing the opportunity for glorious growth for her side in her head, and either forgetting some of the rules hersoef, or just making assumptions about the amount of resistance she would meet claiming the neutral cities.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:47 pm 
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    I didn't forget about the scroll. In fact it was the only thing I thought about for a while.

    The only thing I was able to come up with is that the scroll's 'home' is Charlie's castle, or that it works as described, and Parson's 'home' is now Erfworld itself, but this doesn't alter the fact that he has no knowledge of the scroll's actual function. In all likelihood is is a suicide scroll, or as mentioned 'teleport to Charlie's castle' scroll, that Charlie believes will be used moments before Parson burns alive.

    To be honest, it's irritating that this little puzzle beat me. I gave up after a while, I'll think about it some more at work tomorrow.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:34 pm 
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    He could also cast the scroll on Jack. But again, he has no reason to believe it would help.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:07 am 
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    zyxophoj wrote:
    As escaped Jetstone prisoners, Parson and Antium move on Jetstone's turn - good enough to get out of the city, watch it burn down, get back in again, and reclaim the city. Still, units have to evade a trap to get out of an inferno so they'll be losing even more units. Ouch. This does allow more than nothing to survive but it's looking pretty grim. I'm starting to like those plans which involve getting Sizemore in to put the fire out a lot better.

    Oops, I missed your point earlier. By re-seizing the Spacerock hex, they (might) go from being fugitives back to being full-fledged GK units, at which point Parson could spend the treasury building a city around him.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:15 am 
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    teratorn wrote:
    Whispri wrote:
    Kreistor wrote:
    3. Stanley in the background of the last panel is called "foreshadowing".

    Gobwin Knob's livery is in the background of the last panel, I feel it is worth marking that distinction.

    I don't know, Stanley burning may really be some foreshadowing that the bad news aren't finished yet.

    It's a banner that represents Gobwin Knob's control of the City that is burning.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:13 am 
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    My money (and not a lot of it), is on Parson's Duty determining that his side is better served with him alive and on it than croaked. Maybe he can disband himself, establish a new side on the capitol site that he's standing in right now (which would re-open the portal), and use that to escape back to the Magic Kingdom. The Ctrl-Z bit comes in doing so would undo what Jetstone just did - Jetsone just took Spacerock from Capitol to just another city, and Parson could undo that to bring the portal back.

    The plan would, at the time that he executes this stage, be to rejoin Gobwin Knob after disbanding. But, since disbanding would free him of his Duty, he would then obviously NOT rejoin the Tool. It might be just the loophole he needs to get away from Stanley.

    I anticipate something like this happening partly because I think it would be awesome and partly because we're apparently nearing the end of Book 2 and a scenario like this would tie us back to the end of Book 1 ("I'm a player!").

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:35 am 
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    I like EvilCoatrack's theory.

    Parson needs some downtime in the MK anyway to spend with Isaac and Marie and get a grasp of the different conspiracies.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:09 am 
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    I theory is:

    Parson makes Tool transfer Capital to Spacerock (or puts fire in any other way), and then Charlie does something bad to Tool. When he's gone, Parson and his stack goes barbarian, and immediatly starts a new side in Spacerock - since Stanley has no hier. He might claim all bodies of the fallen and again align himself with Wanda, and any other willing caster.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:31 am 
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    Shouldn't panel 2 be "Come here, you little Boop!"

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:27 am 
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    Near as I can tell Charlie constantly changed plans.

    The first idea was to have Jojo trick Parson into reading that scroll that would have, one way or another, removed him from Erfworld.
    He knew about Parson traveling to the magic kingdom because he could have overheard Maggie telling Jack and Wanda about it (they knew that Parson was coming when they had reached the portal room). The scroll possibly was created earlier as a means to counter Parson, who is becoming a direct threat to Charlie's position as resident tactical genius.

    When the scroll idea failed, the backup plan was to make sure Parson was croaked in the magic kingdom. The carnymancers were doing a good job of stirring up everybody to come to magical blows.

    Then Sylvia set the city on fire and Slately was croaked, leaving Jetstone without ruler (and existence) at the end of turn. So Charlie changed plans yet again and this time told Jojo to let Parson through the portal into the burning city. He told, or tricked, the Slately clone into changing capitols as soon as Parson entered the trap, knowing that Parson would be without move in an inferno even if he managed to croak the king and remaining caster(s) in the ruins of the city.

    Also, in hindsight, it might have been more fitting if Maggie had accompanied Parson...

    (And I am still a bit upset that Jack was croaked for no other apparent reason than to justify Parson killing the king)

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