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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
 Post Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:06 pm 
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name lips wrote:
At this moment, Trem has become Overlord.

I wonder if he will be willing to negotiate with Parson.

By "Control-z", Parson could mean that he wants to undo the taking of the Spacerock garrison by letting Jetstone recapture it. Parson, Antium, and the surviving GK units would become prisoners, and get move.

I see two ways for Parson to let Jetstone take the city. One is more awesome than the other.

1. Call Tremennis and negotiate. Parson moves all the GK troops out of the garrison. Trem sends in a token force to take the garrison before it completely turns to ash. Trem then escorts his new prisoners out of the hex.
2. There may be jetstone prisoners inside the city. Any units that weren't in the garrison proper, but still in the city, would now be chained. Parson moves all the GK troops out of the garrison. He then frees a prisoner and kicks them into the Garrison. He and Antium are Commanders and, as defined in IPTSF, able to escape. They free other units if possible and hightail it across the hex border.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:07 pm 
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    This is interesting. I can think of a few ways to fix this mess, but none of them are good. Here's my least bad option:

    Move Sizemore and Wanda to MK
    Stanley changes capital to Spacerock
    Move Sizemore and Wanda into Spacerock, get Parson into MK
    Sizemore puts out the fire, then returns to MK
    Stack everything in the city of Gobwin Knob into one big stack, led by Stanley. Do the same in Spacerock, only led by Wanda.
    Stanley orders Wanda's stack to turn to Goodminton
    Wanda claims Spacerock for Goodminton
    At this point, Stanley is the victim of a self-inflicted capital strike. He probably has nothing but his stack, Sizemore, Maggie, and Parson (I'm assuming, perhaps unwisely, that Parson in the MK does not disband). Anything in a city goes barbarian, anything outside disappears.
    Stanley claims Gobwin Knob(city) for Gobwin Knob (side)
    Wanda can now return to Stanley via the magic kingdom and stop being the ruler of her own side - if she wants to, that is.

    The advantage of this is that it can all be done off-turn. The disadvantage is that Stanley loses every city not named "Gobwin Knob" or "Spacerock". Also, it depends rather heavily on Wanda ... not being Wanda.


    The slow way to do it involves moving Stanley to Spacerock and back via Dwagon-relay. This seems dangerous - it all depends on nobody grabbing Spacerock before it's Gobwin Knob's turn - and I think both Faq and Haggar might be able to do that.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:36 pm 
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    Swodaems wrote:
    name lips wrote:
    At this moment, Trem has become Overlord.

    I wonder if he will be willing to negotiate with Parson.

    By "Control-z", Parson could mean that he wants to undo the taking of the Spacerock garrison by letting Jetstone recapture it. Parson, Antium, and the surviving GK units would become prisoners, and get move.

    I see two ways for Parson to let Jetstone take the city. One is more awesome than the other.

    1. Call Tremennis and negotiate. Parson moves all the GK troops out of the garrison. Trem sends in a token force to take the garrison before it completely turns to ash. Trem then escorts his new prisoners out of the hex.
    2. There may be jetstone prisoners inside the city. Any units that weren't in the garrison proper, but still in the city, would now be chained. Parson moves all the GK troops out of the garrison. He then frees a prisoner and kicks them into the Garrison. He and Antium are Commanders and, as defined in IPTSF, able to escape. They free other units if possible and hightail it across the hex border.

    I wonder if Parson could order Antium to turn to Jetstone and then reclaim the garrison.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:10 pm 
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    Hmm... Space"rock". Jetstone does not "rock". Stanley does rock. Foreshadowing?

    I'm taking back my certainty that Stanley wouldn't switch the capital. He might like the idea of doing so more-or-less permanently and he might be confident of being able to get there on dwagonback. As Kreistor suggested, there might even be enough of a relay still in existence to allow that to happen in GK's next turn, if Sizemore and Wanda enable the defense of Spacerock.


    joosy wrote:
    bah. I'm still not buying the reasoning on why Slately had to risk himself and other units to switch the capitols.

    If the point was to trap Parson in Jetstone all Charlie had to have Slately do is to wait until Parson was in Jetstone and then retreat all units out of the garrison thus giving control to GK and closing the portal. The whole 'switching capitols' plan appears to just be there to demonstrate to us how a mechanic is used in game so that Parson can manipulate it to his advantage in the future.

    If Jetstone lost control of Spacerock while Spacerock was still their capital, then all units in the outer walls or airspace would have been captured, all of Jetstone's other cities would have turned neutral, all Jetstone units in the field other than Trammenis's stack would have disbanded, and Jetstone would no longer have a treasury - only the purses in Trammenis's stack.


    Swodaems wrote:
    2. There may be jetstone prisoners inside the city. Any units that weren't in the garrison proper, but still in the city, would now be chained. Parson moves all the GK troops out of the garrison. He then frees a prisoner and kicks them into the Garrison. He and Antium are Commanders and, as defined in IPTSF, able to escape. They free other units if possible and hightail it across the hex border.

    Awesome.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:40 pm 
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    zyxophoj wrote:
    The advantage of this is that it can all be done off-turn. The disadvantage is that Stanley loses every city not named "Gobwin Knob" or "Spacerock". Also, it depends rather heavily on Wanda ... not being Wanda.

    Actually, wouldn't Goodminton claim all the cities of GK when they did the capital strike? Then when she surrendered couldn't she trade them or something with all the cities first?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:42 pm 
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    Chit Rule Railroad wrote:

    joosy wrote:
    bah. I'm still not buying the reasoning on why Slately had to risk himself and other units to switch the capitols.

    If the point was to trap Parson in Jetstone all Charlie had to have Slately do is to wait until Parson was in Jetstone and then retreat all units out of the garrison thus giving control to GK and closing the portal. The whole 'switching capitols' plan appears to just be there to demonstrate to us how a mechanic is used in game so that Parson can manipulate it to his advantage in the future.

    If Jetstone lost control of Spacerock while Spacerock was still their capital, then all units in the outer walls or airspace would have been captured, all of Jetstone's other cities would have turned neutral, all Jetstone units in the field other than Trammenis's stack would have disbanded, and Jetstone would no longer have a treasury - only the purses in Trammenis's stack.
    .

    Ah - so in the Book 0 update all of Haffatons cities are now neutral and all Haffaton units outside of the city are now disbanded. Thanks for the explanation!

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:13 pm 
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    name lips wrote:
    At this moment, Trem has become Overlord.

    I wonder if he will be willing to negotiate with Parson.

    King, not Overlord. He's still a Royal.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:18 pm 
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    I don't think Charlie's plan was just to torch Parson; I think he sees Jetstone as doomed and wants to conquer it for himself. The Jetstone capital is now (presumably) in Jetstone - a much weaker city than Spacerock with no Parson issues to deal with. The soon-to-be-popped heir is gone while Jetstone's remaining casters and new ruler are traveling and will only reach Oliverstone this turn. Charlie also made it clear that there is no formal alliance between Charlescomm and Jetstone. If this goes down, with the loss of both their prior and new capitals, Tremannis and company will be reminted as barbarians with very limited funds. Changing the capital site has other potential advantages for Charlie's plan:

    1. Parson cannot flee to the Magic Kingdom
    2. No one in the Magic Kingdom, such as Sizemore, Wanda or any of the GMTTA could enter Spacerock to help Parson
    3. No other casters, such as Ace or Cubbins, could flee to the Magic Kingdom
    4. (speculative) If this also moves the location of the portal in the Magic Kingdom, it could explain part of what Charlie said to Jojo ("Hey, I need you to go to this other part of portal park because a new portal will appear and either (a) I need you to prevent any MK help from coming through or (b) I need you to go through to scout / claim the city / whatever.")

    Charlie started out with the intention of stopping GK but instead fragmented their leadership while picking up the remnants of Jetstone for almost nothing.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:18 pm 
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    Swodaems wrote:

    2. There may be jetstone prisoners inside the city. Any units that weren't in the garrison proper, but still in the city, would now be chained. Parson moves all the GK troops out of the garrison. He then frees a prisoner and kicks them into the Garrison. He and Antium are Commanders and, as defined in IPTSF, able to escape. They free other units if possible and hightail it across the hex border.


    I did not think of that one. That's a clever abuse of the rules, although I am not sure if a unit can be thrown across the hex boundary. Still, if that's an issue, Parson can just drop freed prisoners into the garrison from the airspace until one of them survives. We already know there's a gravity loophole.



    Salem wrote:
    Actually, wouldn't Goodminton claim all the cities of GK when they did the capital strike? Then when she surrendered couldn't she trade them or something with all the cities first?


    I think what happens is described here: http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_98b Units in cities become "Neutral", which means they just sit there waiting to be conquered.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:52 pm 
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    joosy wrote:
    Ah - so in the Book 0 update all of Haffatons cities are now neutral and all Haffaton units outside of the city are now disbanded. Thanks for the explanation!


    Not now, but likely soon.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:01 pm 
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    joosy wrote:
    Ah - so in the Book 0 update all of Haffatons cities are now neutral and all Haffaton units outside of the city are now disbanded. Thanks for the explanation!

    Effbaum is a "capital site" but it was not Haffaton's capital and Olive has not been croaked yet, so no.

    mroozee wrote:
    I don't think Charlie's plan was just to torch Parson; I think he sees Jetstone as doomed and wants to conquer it for himself.

    You could be right, except for the "for himself" part. He wouldn't simultaneously informally betray Jetstone, destroy his non-expansionist image, and change his strategy when he could just find a way to sell Jetstone to Haggar.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:04 pm 
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    zyxophoj wrote:
    Swodaems wrote:

    2. There may be jetstone prisoners inside the city. Any units that weren't in the garrison proper, but still in the city, would now be chained. Parson moves all the GK troops out of the garrison. He then frees a prisoner and kicks them into the Garrison. He and Antium are Commanders and, as defined in IPTSF, able to escape. They free other units if possible and hightail it across the hex border.


    I did not think of that one. That's a clever abuse of the rules, although I am not sure if a unit can be thrown across the hex boundary. Still, if that's an issue, Parson can just drop freed prisoners into the garrison from the airspace until one of them survives. We already know there's a gravity loophole.

    But can Parson flee the garrison without any move?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:53 pm 
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    The only thing I can think of is Control-Z (Undo) will roll back the entire turn up to the point where their turn was ended early. Probably only Parson will remember what happened, he will know its a trap, possibly faking his travel to there only to stop at the last moment and wait for the portal to drop then spin around and return with his casters to GK. Leaving orders to torch the place.

    Or something like that.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:20 am 
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    WarGiver wrote:
    But can Parson flee the garrison without any move?


    No, precisely the problem. Half of this action has been on Jetstone's turn.
    I believe that Charlie's plan was to likely to just swoop in them on next turn with their depleted forces.
    If Parson can rebuild the city and Wanda decrypt some troops, he'll have an unexpected confrontation.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:44 am 
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    allaces14400 wrote:
    Prediction: The "undo" refers to a reset of the Capital. If Stanley orders it, Gobwin Knob's capital can be shifted to Spacerock. Which returns the portal. Which either: A - allows Parson to escape, or B - allows Parson to call in Sizemore, who can deal with the Inferno.


    Possibly - but how does Parson get Stanley to do it...he has no casters. No hat.

    What does he want?

    He wants the Inferno gone. He needs Sizemore.
    He needs Jack raised. He needs Wanda.
    He needs and army. He needs Wanda.

    Both are in the Magic Kingdom. He needs the portal opened.
    He either needs Spacerock to be a capital again or someway to have some actions of this turn undone.
    Does he see another exploit that will effectively undo some of the actions and events here? Or is he going to see if he can persuade Stanley to change capitals? Or...as Chief Warlord, can he change capitals? Sides can split but can he do that by himself?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:28 am 
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    Kyrt wrote:
    Possibly - but how does Parson get Stanley to do it...he has no casters. No hat.

    He has an eyebook, and Wanda can probably do thinkagrams given that she can do suggestions.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:54 am 
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    Chit Rule Railroad wrote:
    Kyrt wrote:
    Possibly - but how does Parson get Stanley to do it...he has no casters. No hat.

    He has an eyebook, and Wanda can probably do thinkagrams given that she can do suggestions.


    Does he have the eyebook with him?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:17 am 
    E is for Erfworld Supporter Battle Crest Pins Supporter Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter This user is a Tool! This user was a Tool before it was cool Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
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    What happens when you link a foolamancer (who can show you things) and a predictamancer (who can predict the future) via a thinkamancer?

    If just Jack and Maggie could do 3d battle plans on an eyebook, showing the future(s) so you can find out the enemy's gambit seems on par with the ability to skip an entire side's turn (since with 2 turnamancers you could do that every turn, no?).

    Control-Z might be "Okay I've seen enough, let's do this for real this time".

    Or is that 'too cheap' of a trick? Is there such a thing in Erfworld?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:40 am 
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    Is now a good time to sing 'Ding Dong'?

    I really feel sorry for the Dwagons, one gets cheated of its treat, while the poor purple looks so sad as it looks at its fallen rider.

    C9H20 wrote:
    atalex wrote:
    ManaCaster wrote:
    Prediction: I'm going with Parson declares himself Overlord of Jetstone and then immediately establishes a treaty with Gobwin Knob. This allows him to maintain two portals, one at GK and one at JS, both of which are essential, IMO.


    I see people throwing this line around but is there any precedent for a warlord which broke off from their side just like that? We only know that Royal sides can and often do make new Royal sides, and I can only imagine this happens voluntarily rather then by rebellion. Not to mention this explicitly mentions Royals, nothing about Overlord sides being able to form spinoff sides, voluntarily or not. If anything the gigantic and unwieldy Haffaton seems to be proof against this.

    I'd just like to know where people are getting this idea from? As far as I can tell it is something totally out of the left field.

    I for one, can't see any reason to think that Parson could form his own Side. Wanda on the other tendril...

    Vreejack wrote:
    I also have to wonder...what happened to the prince who was going to pop? Will something weird happen now? Games like this usually simply delete the construction queue on a forced transfer, or maybe convert it into cash, but Parson is about to do something very strange. Jack's croaking and his seeming desire to reverse time make me believe something really strange is about to happen.

    I'd say that if the production list wasn't cleared then the City is probably popping a normal Warlord now. This would presumably change if the City became a Capital again.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 106
     Post Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:43 am 
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    Kyrt wrote:
    Does he have the eyebook with him?

    Check the "boot" panel.
    Wanda and Sizemore have also been established as having them. They're resizable, so they're easy to carry.

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