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 Post Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:05 pm 
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BrotherRool:

But is it justice, and respect for life, and all that? Or is it just another iteration of the theme we've seen before, the sin of pride?
"I am not Fate's pawn, I refuse to be, I'm too strong/wise/important!"
People in this story keep saying that, and look where it gets them.

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     Post Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:47 pm 
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    I feel that King Banhammer is under Olive's thrall right now. He cannot see what is going on here clearly, he has his predicamancer and a recently turned person telling him that she is Evil and needs to be gotten rid of.

    I feel that his insistence on a trial will lead to his undoing. Jillian has demonstrated that she loves her father in a way, but from her talk to Ansom in Book 1 she said it was a bad relationship. Olive will be acquitted by King Banhammer and Jillian will have a major falling out with her father over this with him. I feel that Olive is still a major part of the story behind the seines or her death is the end point of Jillian's story in Book 0.

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     Post Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:50 pm 
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    StClair wrote:
    "I am not Fate's pawn, I refuse to be, I'm too strong/wise/important!"
    People in this story keep saying that, and look where it gets them.

    I don't have time to do the digging right now, but to "look where it gets them" would be an interesting exercise.

    It seems that most Erfworlders desire either an end to everything they don't like about Erfworld and/or to get into the City of Heroes. The former desire hasn't happened yet, and it's not clear whose efforts have helped it or hindered it. But for the latter desire, we can look at who has been heroic.

    A question we can actually answer is: How much heroism have we seen from characters in each of these three camps: yes-to-Fate, no-to-Fate and Fate-agnostic?


    For example, I would say that Jack is clearly City of Heroes material - he's been awesome, effective and courageous in speaking truth to power - and I don't recall him being opinionated about Fate one way or the other.

    Ansom's also been heroic. I don't think we've seen him speak of Fate directly, but he has spoken of desiring "glory" (his objection to not leading the attack on Spacerock) and some of his heroism has been of the "third option" sort, so I imagine he'd attempt to defy Fate if it seemed to conflict with his desires.

    Delphie Temple's interpretation of Duty as Chief Caster may or may not have been justifiable, but she demonstrated loyal ferocity in the confrontation with Quisling and Frenemy, even after being demoted. She's a yes-to-Fate partisan who clearly qualifies for the City of Heroes.

    Vinnie believes "the Titans have a plan. I think we're all-".


    ...Though, I suppose it might be that every unit in Erfworld is heroic if the circumstances allow for it.

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     Post Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:21 pm 
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    Quote:
    Another idea wafted to Jillian's brain on the scent of a flower, one that seemed just as meaningless as everything Judy said. "Trial of 36500 turns?"


    and another extremely-odd thought in honor of the picture to your right:

    If the titans look like Elvis, and "The titans have a plan," was Elvis a cylon?

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     Post Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:08 pm 
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    onlyme wrote:
    ManaCaster wrote:
    Doesn't look like there is any likely means by which Orwell will be croaked at this point. And yet, Faq had little forewarning of Stanely's attack. Maybe Wanda arranges for him to be off duty like Jack during her unintentional betrayal?


    We do not know how little forewarning they had. Remember Stanley travels via dragons. So I doubt he would need more than two turns from being first visible to the lookamancer to arriving at FAQ. So with some little arangement that should be quick enough that they cannot get their foolamancer back into the capital before Stanley can spot it. (And hiding it after it was spotted might not make that much sense).
    Hiding would be totally pointless in any case.

    The whole point of the setup was to hide the fact that their side exists. It's useless against someone who already knows their exact location (which Stanley did, because Wanda betrayed them.)

    And we know they had some warning -- Jillian got a frantic message about an overflight of Dwagons, then next turn the side was gone. This implies that Stanley was detected, but that there wasn't anything they could do.

    (Aside, something I just realized: Jack knew that Wanda betrayed Faq -- I mean, she turned in the middle of the battle; there's no way he wouldn't have figured it out. Yet he never said anything to Jillian, even though he loved her and even though Wanda was his rival. Interesting.)

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     Post Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:29 pm 
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    Quote:
    Jillian turned roughly in the direction that Banhammer’s voice had come from, and raised her chin, trying to struck a defiant pose.


    strike?

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     Post Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 12:16 am 
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    ManaCaster wrote:
    Doesn't look like there is any likely means by which Orwell will be croaked at this point. And yet, Faq had little forewarning of Stanely's attack. Maybe Wanda arranges for him to be off duty like Jack during her unintentional betrayal?


    I think it's because lookamancers can only see so far, and Stanley was heading right for FAQ on dwagonback, and they have tons of move. Most of the other folks they have deflected have been going along the side of FAQ's territory, thinking that the big empty area is a lake surrounded by impassible mountains. Stanley had intel about the exact location, and made a beeline for it with his high-move dwagons.


    lol everyone else said the same thing, oh well. :D

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     Post Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 5:43 am 
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    BrotherRool wrote:
    I'm no fan of Banhammer poor decision making, or the way he lets his intellectual discussions blind him to the people and life around him.

    But this I can respect and I can respect his desire to do right no matter what fate and at the risk of harm and evil. Maybe you can't beat fate, but life should be about fighting it. If you follow decisions because they were made for you then you aren't even living your life, something else is.


    Yes, I have to second this opinion. At least Banhammer is trying to do what's right, even if he's stupid about it.

    Which begs the question, if they is so irresistible, do the Erfworlders fight it so often? Is it a side effect of the degree of free will and judgment have to have, just to be thinking creatures?

    It's probably because good storytelling requires conflict, and struggling against fate is a winner.

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     Post Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 9:31 am 
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    BrotherRool wrote:
    I'm no fan of Banhammer poor decision making, or the way he lets his intellectual discussions blind him to the people and life around him.

    But this I can respect and I can respect his desire to do right no matter what fate and at the risk of harm and evil. Maybe you can't beat fate, but life should be about fighting it. If you follow decisions because they were made for you then you aren't even living your life, something else is.


    ...although, if anyone could beat fate, I bet Parson could

    Haha, both Banhammer and Jillian are not fans of blindly following fate.

    Also, agreed.

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     Post Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 10:17 am 
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    Goshen wrote:
    Which begs the question, if they is so irresistible, do the Erfworlders fight it so often? Is it a side effect of the degree of free will and judgment have to have, just to be thinking creatures?

    Well first, not everyside has a predictamancer that can tell them their fate... second as Delphie pointed out earlier in the book, Fate does NOT have a plan for most sides and units. Really until a side's actions run counter to someone else's fate they are pretty much free to do whatever they like. And third, it seems A LOT of units do not like hearing bad news about their fate and would sooner think its possible to avoid it despite the poor track record that has; they need to take the hard way themselves before they realize how bad an idea it was.

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     Post Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 11:02 am 
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    Frogpop wrote:
    Quote:
    Jillian turned roughly in the direction that Banhammer’s voice had come from, and raised her chin, trying to struck a defiant pose.


    strike?


    The rest of the book 0 comics are written in past tense. Struck is the correct past tense form of strike. Also:

    Quote:
    Even her big gwiffon heavies up there were running veiled and silent, emitting nary a peep.


    I see what you did there.

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     Post Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 12:20 pm 
    E is for Erfworld Supporter Battle Crest Pins Supporter Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter Year of the Dwagon Supporter This user is a Tool! Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
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    Just because you're writing in the past tense doesn't mean you automatically use the past tense of every word you can get your hands on.. "trying" in that sentence isn't "tried". The structure of the sentence still determines the correct tense of the word.

    She struck..
    She tried to strike..
    She was trying to strike..
    She rose, striking..

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     Post Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 12:27 pm 
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    The tense of "strike/struck" has been changed in the update.

    And now for some fun with taking lines out of context...
    Quote:
    “Sixty-nine,” said Wanda.

    “Titans, are you serious?!” exclaimed Jillian. She drew Three-Edged from her back.

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     Post Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 12:46 pm 
    E is for Erfworld Supporter This user was a Tool before it was cool Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
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    Hah! I hadn't even caught that. Awesome catch.

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     Post Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 6:25 pm 
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    Joly crap, 69 cities! I agree with the comment about how much territory Haffaton covers seeming to not fit with that number, considering how many low leverl, undeveloped cities we've seen, I would imagine their standard procedure is to raze any city above a certain level to keep upkeep as low as possible. But still, 69 cities. Just imagine, if you had 69 cities of effecient level, and actually had money in the treasury for it; even if you popped only the weakest feild units availible, if there is a one turn pop unit you could pop a small army EVERY TURN.

    -Turn 1: POP! Mobilize to the front lines.
    -Turn 2: POP! Mobilize to the front lines. Turn 1 units all out attack!
    -Turn 3: POP! Mobilize to the front lines. All unite regroup to take best advantage surviving units that leveled, full out attack!
    -Turn 4: POP! Mobilize to the front lines. All unite regroup to take best advantage surviving units that leveled, full out attack!
    -Turn 5: POP! Rinse
    -Turn 6: POP! Repeat
    -Turn 7: POP! TO INFINITY, AND BWYOND!

    I mean I realize that there is a diminishing shmucker mechanic (probably to prevent this exact abuse), but still, if you get it started, and raize cities for shmukers as you go, and had a croakamancer to doublemint your troups lifespans..... Wow. No wonder Haffaton was a juggernaut.

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     Post Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 7:39 pm 
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    effataigus wrote:
    The tense of "strike/struck" has been changed in the update.


    Curse you Retconjuration!

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     Post Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 9:38 pm 
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    Don't worry. Jillian is about to dismantle Olive. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/comeuppance

    Giddiness about impending courtroom drama aside, I'm interested to know exactly how prosecuting/the legal system on Erfworld works. It seems pretty hard to break the law.

    Edit: The Banhammer validation in this was great.

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     Post Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 10:56 pm 
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    The majority of those 69 cities would have to be level 1 cities and mostly produce zerging units such as gobwins or marbits or whatever, the ones that are above that point would likely be the place your warlords are produced, with any casters produced being sent to the capitol while normal warlords are sent to the front.

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     Post Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 2:28 pm 
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    No, Banhammer is playing an ego game. He is in self-denial that someone could have so thoroughly fooled him. He wants to believe that his capacity to judge others cannot be overcome by acting. It is, regrettably, an all too common fault.

    Banhammer is second-guessing all of his subordinates, based solely on his belief that he is a superior judge of character. Wanda has been in Olive's presence for uncountable Turns. Jillian for weeks worth of Turns. And yet Banhammer denies both of their judgements of Olive based on one evening in her presence. That is the epitome of arrogance.

    No, a Trial at this point is completely unnecessary. There is no available defense. Only Olive's words can defend herself, and that creates only a she-said-she-said that can allow Banhammer to rationalize his capacity to judge character All reasonable prosecution witnesses have already spoken against her. A trial, at this point, is a complete waste of time that they may not have.

    Of course, since this is a story, we know they have time. Banhammer cannot.

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     Post Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 2:42 pm 
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    Kreistor wrote:
    No, a Trial at this point is completely unnecessary. There is no available defense. Only Olive's words can defend herself, and that creates only a she-said-she-said that can allow Banhammer to rationalize his capacity to judge character All reasonable prosecution witnesses have already spoken against her. A trial, at this point, is a complete waste of time that they may not have.

    Of course, since this is a story, we know they have time. Banhammer cannot.

    I agree, although my reasoning is a bit different. In our world, we hve trials because we acknowledge human imperfection, and thef act that a single judge could be manipulated, have preconcieved ideas, or just mistaken. Hence we have developed a complex system with the intent of giving both sides a perfectly equal platformt o present their cases. In Erfworld there are no "laws" the way we know them. There are mechanics for a perpetual war based society. Rules are universal and built intot he fabric of reality. "Innocence" and "guilt" are arbitrary concepts int his setting as any action taken, by anyone, is part of war. Thay might be distasteful, or rude and thus warrent grounds for a grudge, but "wrong" isn't realy the concept in Erf as in Stupidworld. A trial is completely unnecessary at this point because the mechanics of Erf make it so. She is the ruler of an enemy Side, there are only a few real options for dealing with those. Cwoak, hostage, or Turn are the ones that come to mind first. But, Haffaton is broke and has nothing to ransom her with, except may a peace treaty, which might be unenforcible. She's too megalomaniacal to turn to Faq now that she FINALLY is a Ruler, and has already promised to commit "murder" by disbanding Wanda. That just leaves Cwoaking from my perspective.

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