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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 105
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:29 pm 
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Salem wrote:
Also, I get that falling off his mount could have caused his death but that seems really crappy. I mean really really crappy. That's like Wash crappy. I mean it's not even meaningless it's just ugh. If teh rocks crushed him that would be sad and meaningless. If he just fell and died when something more killey and easily available was there it would just seem stupid.


Wash and Book died because Joss asked for volunteers from the cast, and they raised their hands. Those jerks made me cry.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 105
     Post Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:03 pm 
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    coyotenose wrote:
    Salem wrote:
    Also, I get that falling off his mount could have caused his death but that seems really crappy. I mean really really crappy. That's like Wash crappy. I mean it's not even meaningless it's just ugh. If teh rocks crushed him that would be sad and meaningless. If he just fell and died when something more killey and easily available was there it would just seem stupid.


    Wash and Book died because Joss asked for volunteers from the cast, and they raised their hands. Those jerks made me cry.


    Wash? Book?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 105
     Post Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:11 pm 
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    tgriff02 wrote:
    coyotenose wrote:
    Salem wrote:
    Also, I get that falling off his mount could have caused his death but that seems really crappy. I mean really really crappy. That's like Wash crappy. I mean it's not even meaningless it's just ugh. If teh rocks crushed him that would be sad and meaningless. If he just fell and died when something more killey and easily available was there it would just seem stupid.


    Wash and Book died because Joss asked for volunteers from the cast, and they raised their hands. Those jerks made me cry.


    Wash? Book?


    The movie Serenity. Apparently Salem and I are soft touches for the same things. (I think I'm still in shock over and denial over Jack and am covering it by being argumentative >.< )

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 105
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:24 pm 
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    Isn't the irony that the foolamancer died doing something foolish?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 105
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:46 pm 
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    Look at all the theories that Jack's alive wow~
    Not that I wouldn't love to join in and place my bets on a living, trickstery Jack, but I'm taking a rather different course here.
    Far as I'm concerned, Jack's dead. My favorite character is dead, and I am not happy. My approach(for an approach it is) is two-pronged: If Jack is dead, then he is dead and I will get used to it and not get my hopes up. If he actually turns out alive, then I will have a nice fangirl reaction which will probably put me in a good mood for several weeks XD

    On a side note, someone who I told about Jack was reminded of Murtagh from the Eragon series and commented: "No character dies from falling rubble." His argument continued along the lines of "No character who's important gets killed off so mundanely. If they do die mundanely, at least it's made up for by the circumstances, or what happens afterward." My understanding of this is as follows: When a character "just dies" it tends to cause this wrenching feeling in readers. I think this is because it makes them a little relatable, because in real life people "just die" all the time. So unless it's that kind of story, an author wants to keep the readers reading by making the death as palatable as possible. This results in dramatic, sad deaths or heroic deaths or at least in-character deaths. When a character dies helplessly, my own reaction is "what? that can't happen! he couldn't do a thing!"
    The other line of logic my friend presented, following the vein of Murtagh(mentioned above) was that when a character dies mundanely, they have a remarkable tendency to somehow be alive. The gut-dropping feeling in readers gets replaced with the victory of a living character.

    So, then. Knowing the tendency of disappointing deaths to turn out all right, I'm still going to keep believing Jack is dead. Reiterating my earlier argument, if he truly is dead, I'd best get used to it. And if he isn't, then it would be best for me to experience the sadfeels of telling myself "he's dead, jim" before he suddenly shows up. It would do the author's work best justice to experience the intended emotions.
    (off-topic, I think it would be hilarious if Parson actually said "Well. He's dead, Jim.")

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 105
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:29 pm 
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    Maybe next week on April 1st Jack's eyes get retcon'd to non-crosses. It is his holiday afterall.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 105
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:54 pm 
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    hehehe426 wrote:
    Look at all the theories that Jack's alive wow~
    Not that I wouldn't love to join in and place my bets on a living, trickstery Jack, but I'm taking a rather different course here.
    Far as I'm concerned, Jack's dead. My favorite character is dead, and I am not happy. My approach(for an approach it is) is two-pronged: If Jack is dead, then he is dead and I will get used to it and not get my hopes up. If he actually turns out alive, then I will have a nice fangirl reaction which will probably put me in a good mood for several weeks XD

    On a side note, someone who I told about Jack was reminded of Murtagh from the Eragon series and commented: "No character dies from falling rubble." His argument continued along the lines of "No character who's important gets killed off so mundanely. If they do die mundanely, at least it's made up for by the circumstances, or what happens afterward." My understanding of this is as follows: When a character "just dies" it tends to cause this wrenching feeling in readers. I think this is because it makes them a little relatable, because in real life people "just die" all the time. So unless it's that kind of story, an author wants to keep the readers reading by making the death as palatable as possible. This results in dramatic, sad deaths or heroic deaths or at least in-character deaths. When a character dies helplessly, my own reaction is "what? that can't happen! he couldn't do a thing!"
    The other line of logic my friend presented, following the vein of Murtagh(mentioned above) was that when a character dies mundanely, they have a remarkable tendency to somehow be alive. The gut-dropping feeling in readers gets replaced with the victory of a living character.

    So, then. Knowing the tendency of disappointing deaths to turn out all right, I'm still going to keep believing Jack is dead. Reiterating my earlier argument, if he truly is dead, I'd best get used to it. And if he isn't, then it would be best for me to experience the sadfeels of telling myself "he's dead, jim" before he suddenly shows up. It would do the author's work best justice to experience the intended emotions.
    (off-topic, I think it would be hilarious if Parson actually said "Well. He's dead, Jim.")

    Heroic deaths account for nothing. Bogroll had a heroic death, and he is still dead. So dead that he cannot be decrypted. Cubbins also had his heroic moment, but he is not dead yet. His time is coming, and my bet is that it will be a sucky death, like the jetpack he was wearing was the dupe and disappears while he is in mid air, or he just dies due to being incapacitated at end of turn. Everyone else who has croaked did so in a sucky manner.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 105
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:57 pm 
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    bladestorm wrote:
    Heroic deaths account for nothing. Bogroll had a heroic death, and he is still dead. So dead that he cannot be decrypted. Cubbins also had his heroic moment, but he is not dead yet. His time is coming, and my bet is that it will be a sucky death, like the jetpack he was wearing was the dupe and disappears while he is in mid air, or he just dies due to being incapacitated at end of turn. Everyone else who has croaked did so in a sucky manner.


    Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me? I was saying that heroic deaths are simply more palatable to read. In fact, I actually kind of said that heroic deaths were more likely to be permanent. And "sucky" and "heroic" are different from "dramatic". Either one of those deaths you described for Cubbins would be good ones to me if well-written.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 105
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 12:28 pm 
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    From LIAB 33b http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2010-06-12.jpg:
    Quote:
    You can croak from a three foot fall.
    So if you get dismounted, it's a fall.

    Natural Shockamancy.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 105
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 1:27 pm 
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    hehehe426 wrote:
    bladestorm wrote:
    Heroic deaths account for nothing. Bogroll had a heroic death, and he is still dead. So dead that he cannot be decrypted. Cubbins also had his heroic moment, but he is not dead yet. His time is coming, and my bet is that it will be a sucky death, like the jetpack he was wearing was the dupe and disappears while he is in mid air, or he just dies due to being incapacitated at end of turn. Everyone else who has croaked did so in a sucky manner.


    Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me? I was saying that heroic deaths are simply more palatable to read. In fact, I actually kind of said that heroic deaths were more likely to be permanent. And "sucky" and "heroic" are different from "dramatic". Either one of those deaths you described for Cubbins would be good ones to me if well-written.

    Okay, then replace "sucky" with "non-dramatic" and "heroic" with "dramatic", if that makes you feel any better. Cubbins had a whole page spread for his "Pop a cap" or whatever it was called, and there was quite a build-up leading to the fall of the tower. There were a lot of posts in the forums after his apparent demise. He's not croaked. Drama has no equation to permanence. You could expect something like that from a game with rules and mechanics based upon a story; spending "Cool Points" to add a dramatic effect to a roll result, spending Fate Points or Force Points to enhance a roll during a dramatic point in the story, or bonus xp for driving the drama of the story. This is a story based upon a gamelike world with rules and mechanics already in place, and none of them seem to be concerned with drama -- just stats, numbers, and combat. One unit can do four points of damage to another unit and shove a sword through its head. If the unit that was hit has five HP before the attack, it survives. No drama, just Numbers. Another unit can advance on an opponent who is on a lower hex, make a three foot jump downward, and croak due to the Fall mechanics. Still no drama, just Numbers. I'm not convinced that the Rule of Cool is in effect, or that any croaking has any significance aside from raw battle calculations.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 105
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:43 pm 
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    On a different note ...

    In panel 11 (bottom left) is that Fakely standing behind Parson and a few steps above him? It's hard to make out. Parson is so big and Fakely is so little.


    I'm thinking that the doppel may be the last Jetstone unit left alive in the garrison. I think his ray gun went flying in panel 10 too, in which case, no more Pew! Pew!

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 105
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:08 pm 
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    bladestorm wrote:
    Okay, then replace "sucky" with "non-dramatic" and "heroic" with "dramatic", if that makes you feel any better. Cubbins had a whole page spread for his "Pop a cap" or whatever it was called, and there was quite a build-up leading to the fall of the tower. There were a lot of posts in the forums after his apparent demise. He's not croaked. Drama has no equation to permanence. You could expect something like that from a game with rules and mechanics based upon a story; spending "Cool Points" to add a dramatic effect to a roll result, spending Fate Points or Force Points to enhance a roll during a dramatic point in the story, or bonus xp for driving the drama of the story. This is a story based upon a gamelike world with rules and mechanics already in place, and none of them seem to be concerned with drama -- just stats, numbers, and combat. One unit can do four points of damage to another unit and shove a sword through its head. If the unit that was hit has five HP before the attack, it survives. No drama, just Numbers. Another unit can advance on an opponent who is on a lower hex, make a three foot jump downward, and croak due to the Fall mechanics. Still no drama, just Numbers. I'm not convinced that the Rule of Cool is in effect, or that any croaking has any significance aside from raw battle calculations.


    You have some good points there. I wasn't thinking of the gaming factor. You're right there, if you don't make your save in a game, you can still die from a kobold hitting you with a stick.
    I suppose it all depends on the author. Because after all, the author is the one determining all the rolls. I am an avid lover of stories in many different formats, so I know lots of different styles and strategies that storytellers use. For me, the thing to consider isn't how the world works, but how the author wants things to go (unless the author wants the rules of the world to always be considered when he writes, which can well be the case). If the author wants things to proceed with a considerable amount of unpredictability- if he wants it to be the type of story where you understand a character can die at any time- then that's the way things can proceed. If the author wants a more drama-oriented story, where important characters die on their own time and with such deaths blending into his narrative(which is usually what authors go for), then death usually has weight and purpose. That was the angle I was examining. By the way, I'm not quite referring to dramatic as in exaggerated, I'm referring to... how to put it? Resolution, quality of writing, circumstance? When I'm saying "drama" here, I'm referring to it in its stage terms: a story, tale, narrative.
    And yes, Cubbins did have a quite big fake-death. But there are several flavors of such things. The mundane, where a character simply dies but then turns up later. The dramatic, where a character seems quite solidly to be dead but isn't. The disappearance, where a character vanishes and is assumed dead. Among others. I don't equate drama(as in "eventfulness") with permanence, but there are many stories which do. You get my drift? I derive much enjoyment from seeing and analyzing the various mechanisms which authors use. They're very interesting and very varied. And that analysis drove my original post.
    Also, the point of my original post was not that I was betting Jack was actually alive. The point was that any way things went, I was going to think he was dead for now so the author could work whatever magic he wished. I added my analysis of death to explain my view.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 105
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 11:17 pm 
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    Aww...

    I hope this doesn't become a "Earn Your Happy Ending" plot.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 105
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:41 am 
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    Does anyone have any idea when the next comic update is due?
    I am really disliking the irregular update schedule.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 105
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 10:09 am 
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    Witchalok wrote:
    Does anyone have any idea when the next comic update is due?
    I am really disliking the irregular update schedule.

    Wait... you didn't realize that Jack was the narrator?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 105
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 10:55 am 
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    If Jack was the narrator, then the comic should have ended the moment he fell and died.
    No panels with Parson seeing Jack dead should have existed.

    Sorry, it was a nice try at a joke, but i'm really not in the mood ;)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 105
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 1:30 pm 
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    peteratjet wrote:
    On a different note ...

    In panel 11 (bottom left) is that Fakely standing behind Parson and a few steps above him? It's hard to make out. Parson is so big and Fakely is so little.


    I'm thinking that the doppel may be the last Jetstone unit left alive in the garrison. I think his ray gun went flying in panel 10 too, in which case, no more Pew! Pew!



    That does appear to be Fakely. Note that in that panel, he appears to be laying roughly in front of the throne; in the previous panel, he was seen diving towards the throne. Since he's a double we know he isn't dead (otherwise his corpse would go poof), but he may be incapacitated from the rubble. Antium appears to have survived as well (recognizable via his cape, and he can not be dead because he would have parched).

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 105
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 1:45 pm 
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    Another Jack fan here who cannot quite accept that he's died this way.

    Panel 2 shows that he had quite enough distance from the building to react to his dwagon erring before the miscommunication became fatal.

    And if he was so poor a commander, or if he was unable to communicate effectively with the purple than he could have stacked up with it without mounting it.

    All in all, I feel like Jack died here because he was supposed to die. The worst part is that there are a million ways jack could have died that made sense.

    "get their caster! pew pew!"

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 105
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 2:32 pm 
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    focused wrote:
    Another Jack fan here who cannot quite accept that he's died this way.

    Panel 2 shows that he had quite enough distance from the building to react to his dwagon erring before the miscommunication became fatal.

    And if he was so poor a commander, or if he was unable to communicate effectively with the purple than he could have stacked up with it without mounting it.

    All in all, I feel like Jack died here because he was supposed to die. The worst part is that there are a million ways jack could have died that made sense.

    "get their caster! pew pew!"

    I suspect Jack was specifically supposed to die because of Parson's orders, as opposed to some external factor. I agree that this was an incredibly clumsy, ackward way for him to die, but I'm guessing it was supposed to be ironic that way, since he's a Foolamancer.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 105
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 1:46 am 
    E is for Erfworld Supporter Battle Crest Pins Supporter Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter This user is a Tool! This user was a Tool before it was cool Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter Has collected at least one unit
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    oooooh.

    Well, I trust in Rob, but at the moment I am miserable about this. Jack was my favorite NPC.
    Ditto for OOTS and Goblins, as previously mentioned, for their current "heavy" issues.
    And also, still, about Book and Wash. ;)

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