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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 105
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:58 pm 
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What's worse....Jack being dead, or waiting a week for Parson's reaction to jack being dead?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 105
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:03 pm 
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    <de-lurk>
    I haven't seen it asked above, so I'll do it myself: why didn't the dwagon (mount) take the hit for Jack (its rider)?

    I'll agree on a philosophical level with the "death in war is rarely meaningful" position. I'd also agree that it is likely that Jack's last-casted spell was to get Wanda on the other side of the MK gate, while leaving himself on the JS side on the grounds that he can't affect the outcome in any way that wouldn't be achievable via the still-active foolamancy.
    That said, Jack's apparent death isn't believable in the sense that it doesn't feel real. If Rob's going for simulating the perspective of an adrenalin-hyped warrior, he did it right: noted, but the emotions don't come right away.

    Normally, I'd say don't believe it until you see the body; however, since we have a foolamancer involved, this calls for a revisit of the rule. Do you believe it if you see the foolamancer's body, or do you need something else as proof (like a thinkamancer checking for a string)?

    Edit: For clarification, the last paragraph is not a question of whether Jack is dead or not, but a question of *how* you can *know* that you've killed a foolamancer ... 'cause seeing and holding the body isn't enough, now.
    </de-lurk>


    Last edited by bradlyallen on Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 105
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:11 pm 
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    bradlyallen wrote:
    Normally, I'd say don't believe it until you see the body; however, since we have a foolamancer involved, this calls for a revisit of the rule. Do you believe it if you see the foolamancer's body, or do you need something else as proof (like a thinkamancer checking for a string)?
    </de-lurk>


    You need a reasonable reason for the Foolamancer to fool his own CW and spend juice he lied about not having. I can't find that anywhere.

    He's dead.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 105
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:17 pm 
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    sweetidealism wrote:
    That seems like a really boring, anticlimactic way to kill off one of the coolest characters in the comic.


    Ditto. Too anticlimatic for a main character was exactly my thought.

    coyotenose wrote:
    That's the precise reason I thought that Ossomer would survive somewhat longer than he did and do something more dramatic before croaking. I was obviously wrong.


    Ossomer's death scene occurs after many scenes of inner turmoil resulting in being the first to break Wanda's hold and choosing to switch sides. How is that not dramatic?

    hyzhenhok wrote:
    I cannot really believe that Rob would blatant repeating the "make friends with a single Erfworlder, then they die" arc from Book 1. So I'm guessing there's more to this.


    Also ditto. It's been done, and repetition is bad writing.

    Kreistor wrote:
    Remember the old saying, "Deaths come in threes"?


    Don't forget fives, eights, thirteens, and twenty ones.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 105
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:31 pm 
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    Kreistor wrote:
    Parson doesn't have to save the entire city from flames... just create a safe region the fire can't get to.


    Depends on the rules, Inferno might mean no escape anywhere in the hex.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 105
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:45 pm 
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    mmooneybsa wrote:
    sweetidealism wrote:
    That seems like a really boring, anticlimactic way to kill off one of the coolest characters in the comic.


    Ditto. Too anticlimatic for a main character was exactly my thought.
    ...
    Also ditto. It's been done, and repetition is bad writing.

    So the opposite of how Bogroll died? This is a war. People die. This was pretty different than Bogroll. Parson deliberately killed Bogroll, Bogrolls body was ripped to pieces preventing decryption, this was anti-climatic as all hell. I still think this is leading to the formation of a new side to save Parson's stupid ass. Which means Jack will be just fine. Maybe.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 105
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:57 pm 
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    E is for Erfworld Supporter Battle Crest Pins Supporter Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter This user is a Tool! Year of the Dwagon Supporter This user was a Tool before it was cool This user has been published! Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter Has collected at least one unit
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    oh man, Jack D: I'll hold out hope, though... we still haven't found out what he meant about 'must have used a trick of some sort'.

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    Sixty wrote:
    Obviously the mystery caster has no particular feelings one way or the other about Parson, he simply heard "cue the Benny Hill music" and gave chase, compelled to do so by forces outside his control.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 105
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:06 pm 
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    Awh, cwap.

    And it's my birthday, too.

    :cry:

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 105
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:14 pm 
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    We all fall. Even Jack the Lad.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 105
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:02 pm 
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    Oh, also, I just noticed the reason Jack called his end "Irony, really." He was crushed by a statue of Sylvia. That goddamn Carnymancy spell is starting to chafe.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 105
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:19 pm 
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    Shameless self-horn tooting:
    Spoiler: show
    About 3 years ago I ranked Erfworlders from least to most likely to die (at least once). If Ace and Jack are truly dead, then the bottom 5 on the list have all bitten it (or a representative has bitten it, in the case of JS's casters).

    viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1627&p=37012&hilit=yay+forum+mini+game#p37012

    Hmm, hunch that the scene of the day is about to change to Charlie smoking Stanley in GK proper, then Wanda, Sizemore, Decrypto-Ace and Jack making a new side out of Spacerock rubble. We'll see...

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 105
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:24 pm 
    E is for Erfworld Supporter Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter Year of the Dwagon Supporter This user is a Tool! Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter Has collected at least one unit
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    oddly, for me I think the best way to sum up what happened to jack is to quote jack.

    Image

    *edit*
    Spoiler: show
    of course it's worth saying the last few panels here http://www.erfworld.com/page/15/make me question if he actually died and if it wasn't him then what? A master class fool-o-mancers can do all kinds of interesting things.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 105
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:55 pm 
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    Hmm, another weird thing about this update was Jack's plan to begin with. Was it a sound (no pun intended) plan even if he could control the dwagon? When Jack left his forces were engaged with JS's... including Parson. What made him think he could drop a wall into melee without killing more of his own peeps than the enemies?

    Between this and his recommendation to bring down the tower, I'm beginning to think that Jack just likes to see rocks fall.

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    Last edited by effataigus on Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:31 am, edited 239044 times in total.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 105
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:00 pm 
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    Uncroaked casters simply function as infantry. A decrypted Jack may or may not be able to cast, but he certainly wouldn't be able to give units bonuses by acting as a warlord. He did not have that ability while alive. He can still command, but, no bonuses.

    I do see Jack as being the type of character who could easily shrug off the mental effects of decryption. He'd take one look at the black/red skull flower motif, say "Nope." and change it back. :D


    pseudoboo wrote:
    this feels like its counter to the "units understand orders even if not language" or whatever. he clearly didn't mean charge that far forward and despite his words the dwagon should have known that


    Casters can function as commanders but don't give any bonus to regular units. They do give a nice bonus to units of their 'type', such as a dirtamancer and rock golems, etc. But to infantry? Or dwagons? No leadership bonus. Even Jack's use of language when trying to guide the mount supports this. He sounds like Parson. :D "Um, do... thingy... And stuff." Also the dwagon was half blind - no depth perception.


    effataigus wrote:
    Between this and his recommendation to bring down the tower, I'm beginning to think that Jack just likes to see rocks fall.


    Jack is a huge fan of Parson's tactics and strategies, but he isn't on the same level. Remember, he completely overlooked that bringing down the tower would cut off Parson's entrance. I think he just made a mistake, and ended up paying for it with his life.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 105
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:14 pm 
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    What does Jack mean when he says "That's irony, really?"
    1) tried to croak JS with their statues, croaked himself
    2) something about choosing a blind purple instead of a red dwagon
    3) had such an interest in tactics but made such a bad blunder
    4) Jack dying in such a pointless way
    5) something else I'm stupidly missing but is so obvious to everyone else that no one has commented on it yet?

    ETA: 6) QuothTheRaven's suggestion that it was because he was crushed by the statue of Sylvia


    Last edited by ShinyBrownCoat on Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 105
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:14 pm 
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    It's Erfworld, so possibly all of the above. :D

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 105
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:29 pm 
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    peteratjet wrote:
    I dunno whether a decrypted Jack would be a good thing, or a very bad thing. In fact, that's the sort of question that deserves a book all to itself


    Stay tuned for the next installment of the series, where Charlie has captured Sizemore but offers to exchange him for a certain decrypted foolamancer who has been fated to bring together all the Arkentools!

    Coming this fall -- Erfworld: Jack of all Trades

    Pre-order today!

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 105
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:29 pm 
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    ShinyBrownCoat wrote:
    What does Jack mean when he says "That's irony, really?"
    1) tried to croak JS with their statues, croaked himself
    2) something about choosing a blind purple instead of a red dwagon
    3) had such an interest in tactics but made such a bad blunder
    4) Jack dying in such a pointless way
    5) something else I'm stupidly missing but is so obvious to everyone else that no one has commented on it yet?


    He was crushed by what looked like a statue of Sylvia, I think.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 105
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:43 pm 
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    The real question here must be: What does Jack's death mean in relation to Parson's story.
    Good story telling, and Rob strikes me as a very good one in the comic genre, always has major events in the story relate at least indirectly to the arc of the protagonist.
    There is of course the tendency by some writers to regularly 'thin the herd' or even worse 'kill of the protagonist to introduce a new one' but both are rarely, if ever, examples of good storytelling.
    In the case of Erfworld the cast is not so large that it should be thinned out. Jack was never a challenge to the role of protagonist, at best he could have been Parson's Lancer (second in command able to take over for a short time when the protagonist is indisposed or otherwise occupied, without ever being quite as good as the protagonist). He did in fact fullfill that exact role in this book.
    Jack was no crutch for Parson, no Obi Wan Kenobi who had to be pushed aside in order for the young hero to step onto the stage and shine. From the beginning he was one of the powerful tools in Parson's arsenal, same as the other casters. Parson never excessively relied on him to achieve anything, and neither was the the mentor or treshold guardian who kept the hordes at bay until the hero (Parson) was ready for the challenge.
    Killing him off also kills of the potential of a future interesting story dynamic between Jillian, Parson and Jack.
    Parson already learned the lesson 'friends die in war' and this is in fact one of the main reasons why he is in that palace right now instead of in Gobwin Knob. Repeating it with Jack does not move the story of Parson forwards in any meaningful way I can see.

    So I remain with the question, why did Rob decide to write this particular scene, which has been in process of being set up halfway into the current volume?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 105
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:14 pm 
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    QuothTheRaven wrote:
    He was crushed by what looked like a statue of Sylvia, I think.


    I saw this mentioned a few times in this thread, but Sylvia was a Unaroyal unit, not a Jetstone unit. Also, the statues are of Jetstone heirs.

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