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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:03 pm 
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emperorsarda wrote:
Also Illusory fireballs? That is brilliant. Have Jack and Maggie link up; jack creates the image of the fireball and Maggie then uses thinkamancy to cause the mind to think it is in pain. Stimulate the pain receptors. It's genius.

I want to see a foolamancer trick a unit into thinking it's on fire, so it breaks stack and jumps in a lake.

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     Post Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:52 pm 
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    DoctorJest wrote:
    Ambug666 wrote:
    So I wonder how this affects the debate on free will on Erfworld. Jillian and her father have vastly different ideas of what is good for their side, and I'm not certain there is an objective correct answer. Banhammer gave an order and Jillian disobeyed. We've seen this before, but not quite so blatantly. I think this is pretty convincing that at least some units on Erfworld have free will.


    It doesn't contradict anything we didn't already know. From the Erf wiki on Duty:
    http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Duty

    "Duty can backfire when a Unit truly believes their Ruler is too incompetent to make decisions or what they want would destroy the Side, and decide to overrule them. Maggie demonstrated this by giving Stanley a suggestion, Thinkamancer style, and Caesar and Benjamin when they refused to let Don King empty the treasury to make a loan to King Slately.Erf-b2-p059"

    It also states that Duty has the highest effect on the Chief Warlord.

    Jillian is acting out of Duty. She clarifies this herself word for word that what the King wants would destroy the side. So it's not free will.


    It's not *necessarily* free will. It's possible she's force into this, but not necessarily true.

    Chit Rule Railroad wrote:
    emperorsarda wrote:
    Also Illusory fireballs? That is brilliant. Have Jack and Maggie link up; jack creates the image of the fireball and Maggie then uses thinkamancy to cause the mind to think it is in pain. Stimulate the pain receptors. It's genius.

    I want to see a foolamancer trick a unit into thinking it's on fire, so it breaks stack and jumps in a lake.


    An illusionary pond of water. Over a pond of oil.

    I like the idea of making someone jump into a place where you set them on fire to escape the fake fire.

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     Post Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:01 pm 
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    Chit Rule Railroad wrote:
    emperorsarda wrote:
    Also Illusory fireballs? That is brilliant. Have Jack and Maggie link up; jack creates the image of the fireball and Maggie then uses thinkamancy to cause the mind to think it is in pain. Stimulate the pain receptors. It's genius.

    I want to see a foolamancer trick a unit into thinking it's on fire, so it breaks stack and jumps in a lake.


    Even better! Link-up, Jack places a veil over a hex to make it look "on fire," Maggie creates an effect that any unit which enters the hex "thinks" it's on fire and taking fire damage. Surround your capitol with these bewitched hexes so that only your units canp ass through without falling victim to the trick. Figure out what third castor you need in the link up make the effect either permanant, or so that it only takes 1 veil per day to create the whole perimeter.

    P.S. It's riddiculous, I know, but I can just see it in my mind, enemy units laying in a grassy feild hex writhing in "pain" or perfectly still because they believe theya re on fire, or have croaked fromt he fire.

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     Post Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:06 pm 
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    Thinkamancer-Foolamancer-Thinkamancer link, probably. That could make units think and feel and see themselves on fire.

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     Post Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:21 pm 
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    bladestorm wrote:
    Actually, I can see Jillian purposefully not killing Olive just out of spite for Fate and predictions. Get her addicted to heroine buds and leave her to rot in the field. With no directing leadership the kingdom just crumbles, Faq conquers and reclaims their three cities, and this tiny kingdom called Gobwin Knob has a coupe. Later on in Book 4 somewhere, the remnants of Haffaton are discovered, and the CWL of Faq finally kills the Overlord of Haffaton.


    I can oddly see that too. I'd like to see it too Olive Rotting.
    I can't quite tell if you're saying GK is a part of Haffaton. If you are I don't know if it could be since it's a royal side and she's an overlady though I guess they could have submitted.

    DoctorJest wrote:
    It doesn't contradict anything we didn't already know. From the Erf wiki on Duty:
    http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Duty

    "Duty can backfire when a Unit truly believes their Ruler is too incompetent to make decisions or what they want would destroy the Side, and decide to overrule them. Maggie demonstrated this by giving Stanley a suggestion, Thinkamancer style, and Caesar and Benjamin when they refused to let Don King empty the treasury to make a loan to King Slately.Erf-b2-p059"

    It also states that Duty has the highest effect on the Chief Warlord.

    Jillian is acting out of Duty. She clarifies this herself word for word that what the King wants would destroy the side. So it's not free will.


    They probably have the "choice" to obey or not at that point not forced to. I don't think it says either way.
    Not that I believe in free will anyway.

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     Post Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:41 am 
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    I think it's important to recognise that free will has a role outside the battlefield - units are generally left to do what they wish at night time, so units would display free will there regardless of type. We've seen units fall in love, discuss ethics, make presents, trade insults, compose songs and so on and on. It's only when orders get flung around that the unit is compelled to behave (but not think) a certain way. Units with higher duty have a greater ability to overcome this compulsion if it is in accordance with their loyalty stat. (That's how I understand it, anyway.)

    This is pretty much the same when a unit interacts with the Ruler, only the orders are of an obviously different type, and seem to often be implicit, such as "Dont croak me". Therefore only someone who genuinely thought the heir was a better choice to rule can assassinate him/her. But in any case, I dont think 'free will' is even that greatly impacted on by a units ability to disobey orders - I just see it as a mechanical function of the rules. I think the answer lies in what a unit does in the absence of orders...

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     Post Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:40 am 
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    So... For the next scene, we need Olive hovering on her broomstick, screeching about how she'll get Jillian, and her little dog, too! Then she somehow breaks her discipline and lobs a fireball :D

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     Post Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:29 am 
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    BCCroaker wrote:
    bladestorm wrote:
    Faq conquers and reclaims their three cities, and this tiny kingdom called Gobwin Knob has a coup.

    Gobwins Knob get an open topped runabout?
    Shouldn't really pick on typos when people are keying in at speed, but I thought it was funny.

    Booping autocomplete. At least it stopped autoadjusting to 'croup'.

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     Post Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:38 am 
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    Salem wrote:
    bladestorm wrote:
    Actually, I can see Jillian purposefully not killing Olive just out of spite for Fate and predictions. Get her addicted to heroine buds and leave her to rot in the field. With no directing leadership the kingdom just crumbles, Faq conquers and reclaims their three cities, and this tiny kingdom called Gobwin Knob has a coupe. Later on in Book 4 somewhere, the remnants of Haffaton are discovered, and the CWL of Faq finally kills the Overlord of Haffaton.


    I can oddly see that too. I'd like to see it too Olive Rotting.
    I can't quite tell if you're saying GK is a part of Haffaton. If you are I don't know if it could be since it's a royal side and she's an overlady though I guess they could have submitted.


    I was making a time reference for the start of Book 1. As in the death of Saline IV could be mentioned towards the end of Book 0,and we can make the connection between there and the start of the RCC 1. That would also tie in to a second prequel that follows Stanley's rise to power.

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     Post Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:22 am 
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    ftl wrote:
    Noigel wrote:
    2. Orwell blinding Jillian could have been seen as a non-damaging way to try to neutralize the fight so discussion could resume... AND HE GOT GUTTED. Ouch. Anyone believe my theory or did Orwell turn enemy when he turned sides?



    Nah. He turned enemy.

    Hes a Haffaton unit now, not a FAQ unit. He has direct orders to protect Olive.

    "Protect me" isn't "croak her".

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     Post Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 12:04 pm 
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    Swodaems wrote:
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    Hes a Haffaton unit now, not a FAQ unit. He has direct orders to protect Olive.

    "Protect me" isn't "croak her".


    #1 He didn't croak her (Jillian) nor did he attempt to, so I don't see why that is relevant.

    #2 Blinding a warlord attempting to attack my Overlady is certainly in line with the "Protect me" order.

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     Post Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:13 pm 
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    Hmm... so if Jillian wanted to 'thank' Jack for his services (in a more physical way, if ya know what I mean) while she was still under the effects of this spell, would she get all of the senses, or just the visual? Would she be able to check herself out and watch herself as she turned a fool into a temporary mount? It could be like an out of body experience while still being in your body.

    This sounds like a very worthwhile experiment...for Science!

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     Post Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:13 pm 
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    Yes, but it's so not going to happen. Not in Book 0, anyway. Offering a bet on this.

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     Post Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:32 pm 
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    bladestorm wrote:
    Hmm... so if Jillian wanted to 'thank' Jack for his services (in a more physical way, if ya know what I mean) while she was still under the effects of this spell, would she get all of the senses, or just the visual? Would she be able to check herself out and watch herself as she turned a fool into a temporary mount? It could be like an out of body experience while still being in your body.

    This sounds like a very worthwhile experiment...for Science!

    Something like that happened (in 2-way fashion) in the movie Strange Days. Unfortunately it was non-consensual.

    In our world, there's mirrors and video cameras to play with.

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     Post Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:58 pm 
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    drachefly wrote:
    Yes, but it's so not going to happen. Not in Book 0, anyway. Offering a bet on this.
    Hmm, if Jack were more of a sociopath he might be able to fool Jillian into thinking he was Wanda with a... ah... magical staff?

    But yeah, we know it won't happen because Jack is still interested in later books. /cynicism

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     Post Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:21 pm 
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    bladestorm wrote:
    Hmm... so if Jillian wanted to 'thank' Jack for his services (in a more physical way, if ya know what I mean) while she was still under the effects of this spell, would she get all of the senses, or just the visual? Would she be able to check herself out and watch herself as she turned a fool into a temporary mount? It could be like an out of body experience while still being in your body.

    This sounds like a very worthwhile experiment...for Science!



    There's an idea. Foolamancer an orgasm feeling into someone in combat. I bet that would stun them a lot better than intense pain, which they're expecting. That would be a fun spell to work on making too.

    Actually it sounds like a hippiemancer spell.

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     Post Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:24 pm 
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    cheeseaholic wrote:
    bladestorm wrote:
    Hmm... so if Jillian wanted to 'thank' Jack for his services (in a more physical way, if ya know what I mean) while she was still under the effects of this spell, would she get all of the senses, or just the visual? Would she be able to check herself out and watch herself as she turned a fool into a temporary mount? It could be like an out of body experience while still being in your body.

    This sounds like a very worthwhile experiment...for Science!



    There's an idea. Foolamancer an orgasm feeling into someone in combat. I bet that would stun them a lot better than intense pain, which they're expecting. That would be a fun spell to work on making too.

    Actually it sounds like a hippiemancer spell.


    HMMM, semantics, but a hippiemancer migh could cause you HAVE an orgasm, I would go more with thinkamancer to make you THINK you had orgasm, and foolamancer might could make you FEEL an orgasm..... I dunno, this is one of those "Exactly where are the bounderies" guesses, I think.

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     Post Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:50 pm 
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    Oh god no I just realized that the Titans are playing FATAL.

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     Post Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:55 pm 
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    tgriff02 wrote:
    cheeseaholic wrote:
    bladestorm wrote:
    Hmm... so if Jillian wanted to 'thank' Jack for his services (in a more physical way, if ya know what I mean) while she was still under the effects of this spell, would she get all of the senses, or just the visual? Would she be able to check herself out and watch herself as she turned a fool into a temporary mount? It could be like an out of body experience while still being in your body.

    This sounds like a very worthwhile experiment...for Science!



    There's an idea. Foolamancer an orgasm feeling into someone in combat. I bet that would stun them a lot better than intense pain, which they're expecting. That would be a fun spell to work on making too.

    Actually it sounds like a hippiemancer spell.


    HMMM, semantics, but a hippiemancer migh could cause you HAVE an orgasm, I would go more with thinkamancer to make you THINK you had orgasm, and foolamancer might could make you FEEL an orgasm..... I dunno, this is one of those "Exactly where are the bounderies" guesses, I think.

    Trilink a foolamancer and a hippiemancer.

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     Post Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:07 pm 
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    ftl wrote:
    Thinkamancer-Foolamancer-Thinkamancer link, probably. That could make units think and feel and see themselves on fire.

    This raises an interesting question -- what kind of super-Thinkamancy could a pure two-or-three Thinkamancer link perform?

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