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 Post Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:31 pm 
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Check out liab 20 panel 7.

This is a guess. But given how everything is playing out I'd say this is true.

Discuss

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     Post Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:26 am 
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    Then her question to Wanda ("What then? Go searching for the fourth Arkentool?") would make no sense. Also, Wanda's actions would have made no sense.

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     Post Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:44 am 
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    You sure you got the right comic there? This is Book Two, Page 20. You can't even see her feet in panel 7. You can, however, clearly see them in Panels 4 and 6, and her shoes are plain and grey and don't have the Arkentools' otherworldly (read: 3D) appearance at all.

    It'd be a fun tinfoil hat theory if she DID have them, but she's clearly not wearing them there. And it wouldn't make much sense for a lot of what her character is doing if she did own them, either.

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     Post Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:04 pm 
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    Selexor wrote:
    You sure you got the right comic there? This is Book Two, Page 20. You can't even see her feet in panel 7. You can, however, clearly see them in Panels 4 and 6, and her shoes are plain and grey and don't have the Arkentools' otherworldly (read: 3D) appearance at all.

    It'd be a fun tinfoil hat theory if she DID have them, but she's clearly not wearing them there. And it wouldn't make much sense for a lot of what her character is doing if she did own them, either.


    I think the gist of this theory is that the shoes might be signamancy and be able to change their appearance, or even become different items of clothing. This being based on the odd appearance of Queen Jillian's top hat and over coat, being similar to 3D rendering. I don't think that's the case because it wouldn't make much sense for them to be named the ArkenSHOES if they are really the ArkenRAIMENT, and I believe that the odd look to Jillians outfit is just a result of the Rob making them gold instead of simply yellow, going for fancy and snazzy.

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     Post Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:57 am 
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    I was talking text not picture. "You can turn now without betraying your destiny." At the very least she knows where they are.

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     Post Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:16 am 
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    I took that text to mean that Jillian was talking about Charlie. She can't outright say it because of Charlie's Non-Disclosure Agreement, but she's trying to hint to Wanda that they have another attuned Tool on side. So abandoning Stanley to join the RCC2 would be swapping one attuned ally for another - more of a lateral move than anything else.

    As for the shoes becoming different articles of clothing, it's an interesting idea, but changing from shoes to coat and/or hat... that'd be Dollamancy, or possibly Foolamancy, rather than Signamancy. Which isn't to say the shoes can't do it, but yeah, doesn't seem likely, and we've got nothing to back it up.

    Could be wrong, that's just how I read it.

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     Post Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:50 am 
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    Selexor wrote:
    As for the shoes becoming different articles of clothing, it's an interesting idea, but changing from shoes to coat and/or hat... that'd be Dollamancy, or possibly Foolamancy, rather than Signamancy. Which isn't to say the shoes can't do it, but yeah, doesn't seem likely, and we've got nothing to back it up.

    Well it's important to note that the 'Shoes being Signamancy aligned is *just* a theory. My theory in fact, which it seems the community has taken a liking to. It's based off the (still debated, and fairly so) idea that the 'Tools even have primary associations, and a bit of 'logic' based on the way the magical schools are organized. But it could still be wrong.

    Also, we have a pretty vague description of what Signamancy does, but I for one would argue that a change of form actually is within it's purview. Foolamancy is simply changing appearance, and Dollamancy is turning raw materials into something usable, whereas Signamancy appears to be deal with a more fundamental level.

    Now, that being said, I do not think it would make plot-sense for Jillian to have the 4th 'Tool. It seems a bit deus ex machina coincidental, and that's not Rob's style.

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     Post Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:05 am 
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    0beron wrote:
    Well it's important to note that the 'Shoes being Signamancy aligned is *just* a theory. My theory in fact, which it seems the community has taken a liking to.
    Sorry 0, retconjuration is reserved for the titans. The 4th arkentool-signamancy link was an old theory here before either of us joined these forums.

    Here's an example, but some concerted digging will reveal that the idea has been pretty persistent over time.
    viewtopic.php?f=12&t=45&p=549&hilit=signamancy+arkentool#p549

    Not to imply you didn't come up with it on your own though!

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    Last edited by effataigus on Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:31 am, edited 239044 times in total.

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     Post Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:32 am 
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    WOW, that's impressive! Well I'm glad I also thought of it then, since I don't recognize any of those users, so the theory could have been lost forever!

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     Post Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:44 pm 
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    I waited 2 years after the end of book 1 to sign up here? Huh.

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     Post Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:24 pm 
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    0beron wrote:
    WOW, that's impressive! Well I'm glad I also thought of it then, since I don't recognize any of those users, so the theory could have been lost forever!
    I do love that the 4thish post down on that link is by someone called "Ancient History." :D
    drachefly wrote:
    I waited 2 years after the end of book 1 to sign up here? Huh.
    Looking back got me wondering who is still around from the younger years of this forum. Of the names I vaguely recall having seen recently, Marbitchow, Bland, Ohberon, CelebrenIthil, gameboy, joosy, Dancing Cthulhu, Angband, Kriestor, Zilfallon, LTDave, Ansan Gotti, whispri, ftl, and Housellama all made accounts around the time the forum moved over here +/- a couple of months. I was definitely surprised you were not on that list, drache!

    Of course, there was supposedly a healthy amount of speculation going on back on the OOTS subforum as well.

    I'm not sure that anyone cares, but I was curious.

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     Post Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:36 pm 
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    Seems we have a decent turnover of people coming and going, because besides those you mention, I don't recognize many other people from when I started on here haha.

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    GJC wrote:
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     Post Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:32 am 
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    effataigus wrote:
    I was definitely surprised you were not on that list, drache!


    Well, I see I was talking about Erfworld up to may of 2009 at giantITP. I suspect I just didn't notice the migration in a timely fashion. So yeah, I've been around longer than that. Just, 'around' wasn't around here.

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     Post Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:00 am 
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    My suspicions as to the whereabouts of the Arkenshoes:

    Whispri wrote:

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     Post Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:16 am 
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    Mmnh, I doubt it. Beside the fact that those are not 3D-rendered, Wanda's entire character motivation, her role in the plot, and everything she did during Book One and the buildup to it was, "I must find an Arkentool and claim it for my own." She knew specifically that she was going to, because Predictamancy said so. She was also the Chief Caster for Stanley, who was specifically hunting down the Arkentools, and Duty would have made sure she told him if she had one. Even if she didn't tell Stanley, her Duty to Parson would have made her tell him during the Last of the Last Stands in the Battle for Gobwin Knob.

    Basically there is no way she'd be in possession of the Arkenshoes without someone knowing about it long before now. That's like Indiana Jones casually revealing that he was using the Ark of the Covenant as a coffee table this whole time and he's not sure what all the fuss is about.

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     Post Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:57 am 
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    I remember the gold hat and coat coming up at the time, and Rob or Xin coming out to say that wasn't full 3D, just how it came out with the glitter. No link, just memory unfortunately.

    I'm pretty sure the Arkenshoes are just off camera.

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     Post Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:51 pm 
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    And this theory is now thoroughly debunked. Thanks for the input. Although it's possible they were transported elsewhere in erfworld.

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     Post Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:08 pm 
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    WhirdCheese wrote:
    And this theory is now thoroughly debunked. Thanks for the input. Although it's possible they were transported elsewhere in erfworld.

    This latter possibility is what occurred in the Oz books, once Dorthy went home, the shoes were lost elsewhere in Oz. Presumably this is why Jillian and Wanda talk about finding the 4th 'Tool in Book 2, because in the intervening time they learned that this occurred.

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    GJC wrote:
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    There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.

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     Post Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:38 pm 
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    Selexor wrote:
    Mmnh, I doubt it. Beside the fact that those are not 3D-rendered, Wanda's entire character motivation, her role in the plot, and everything she did during Book One and the buildup to it was, "I must find an Arkentool and claim it for my own." She knew specifically that she was going to, because Predictamancy said so. She was also the Chief Caster for Stanley, who was specifically hunting down the Arkentools, and Duty would have made sure she told him if she had one. Even if she didn't tell Stanley, her Duty to Parson would have made her tell him during the Last of the Last Stands in the Battle for Gobwin Knob.

    Basically there is no way she'd be in possession of the Arkenshoes without someone knowing about it long before now. That's like Indiana Jones casually revealing that he was using the Ark of the Covenant as a coffee table this whole time and he's not sure what all the fuss is about.

    I don't see why the lack of 3D rendering should matter, there's no law saying that the Arkentools must all share the same tell. As for Wanda's motivation, she was seeking an Arkentool, yes. That hardly precludes her from all ready owning a pair. Duty... well one might argue that duty would compel Olive to not keep her Overlady in a drugged stupor at all times, yet... Also, the shoes known powers all relate to movement, so what use would they be during the Last of the Last Last stands?

    Well that really depends on when and where she summoned them... As for your example, wouldn't that just lead to the Germans storming his house?

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     Post Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:55 pm 
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    Whispri wrote:
    I don't see why the lack of 3D rendering should matter, there's no law saying that the Arkentools must all share the same tell.

    Actually there is. The whole reason they look different is because they are not made by Erflings, they are somewhat foreign to the normal mechanics of Erfworld. Whether they were actually made by the Titans could be debated since we have little proof of the Titans ever existing, but we do know that the 'Tools are not really part of Erfworld's normal operation, and thus appear accordingly foreign.

    Think of it like this. In the real world, we have the luxury of being able to test things and determine what the laws of the world are. In a comic/story however, we are only shown what is relevant to the plot, and a writer only has that context in which to "teach" us the rules of their fantasy world. So rather than using the scientific method, we have to instead adopt the "if we see it once, then we know it is always true the rest of the time" approach. For Rob to mess with this unspoken understanding of storytelling would be a grave mistake because it would call into question every single other thing he has taught us by example, causing undue confusion. Therefor it is reasonable to assume that because the 3 'Tools shown thus far are 3D rendered, the 'Shoes are as well.

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    GJC wrote:
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    There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.

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