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 Post Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:52 pm 
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Hmmm. I think I shall attempt the Epileptic Tree planting thing for my self.......
Olive forgets her place and actively, directly moves against Judy, attacks her even and autodisbands from violating Duty and Loyalty. Thus settling the Forum debates as to whether or not Duty Disbands actually occur.

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     Post Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:22 am 
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    Orwell would go barbarian as long as he is inside the city if Judy and Olive were to croak.

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     Post Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:06 am 
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    If shoes are Findamancy item then I speculate this:
    1) they want to be found. They'll respond to every findamancy spell and teleport to every findamancer that pictures them clearly in his/her mind. Which is what Wanda did. Remember, casters can use their juice off-turn.
    2) they can teleport their wearer wherever they want to go. Or whatever place they see.
    3) 'come over here' spell or 'wearer sees, object comes to their hand' spell. Findamancy is summoning magic (the scroll that summoned Parson was look/findamancy combination, with lookamancy giving search/aiming function). I think that Judy will just point at chillaxe, say 'Your power is all I need!', click her heels and chillaxe will be in her hands. How many casters would have been shocked and in disarray to find their casting implement in enemy's hand in the middle of the battle?

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     Post Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:11 am 
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    tgriff02 wrote:
    As far as what happens to the shoes, where was it ever definitively stated that Judy is a Stupidworlder.


    I HIGHLY doubt Judy is a stupidworlder... Judy is lacking one important characteristic; Human proportions.
    Like Parson, if judy was from stupidworld she would be a lot taller than everyone else. Humans are very tall compared to the rather short erfworlders

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     Post Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:28 am 
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    MonteCristo wrote:
    tgriff02 wrote:
    As far as what happens to the shoes, where was it ever definitively stated that Judy is a Stupidworlder.


    I HIGHLY doubt Judy is a stupidworlder... Judy is lacking one important characteristic; Human proportions.
    Like Parson, if judy was from stupidworld she would be a lot taller than everyone else. Humans are very tall compared to the rather short erfworlders


    Judy Garland was only 4'11". Still tall for an erfworlder, but not abnormally so, I dont think. Ive never thought of Wanda as short, for an erfworlder, and Judy looks to be slightly taller than her. So a short stupidworlder might be a tall erfworlder, but not outrageously so, like Parson.

    And of course, Judy Gale is not Judy Garland is not Dorothy Gale.

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     Post Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 3:10 am 
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    rlc wrote:
    MonteCristo wrote:
    tgriff02 wrote:
    As far as what happens to the shoes, where was it ever definitively stated that Judy is a Stupidworlder.


    I HIGHLY doubt Judy is a stupidworlder... Judy is lacking one important characteristic; Human proportions.
    Like Parson, if judy was from stupidworld she would be a lot taller than everyone else. Humans are very tall compared to the rather short erfworlders


    Judy Garland was only 4'11". Still tall for an erfworlder, but not abnormally so, I dont think. Ive never thought of Wanda as short, for an erfworlder, and Judy looks to be slightly taller than her. So a short stupidworlder might be a tall erfworlder, but not outrageously so, like Parson.

    And of course, Judy Gale is not Judy Garland is not Dorothy Gale.


    While heights can vary a bit panel to panel, even if we assumed that Parson was rather tall, erfworlders compared to him seem like they would be more around 4 feet. And Judy seems to be about the same height as the average erfworlder; if she's taller than its no more than an inch or two since its hardly noticeable. I could believe that maybe she was a short human if she was something more like a full head taller than the others; more like ossomer or Ace who are very noticeably taller than the average erfworlder.

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     Post Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 3:27 am 
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    Judy is withered from bud use, mind and body. Natural signamancy.

    Also she may have come from Stupid World when she was a young girl / early teen.

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     Post Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:06 am 
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    MonteCristo wrote:
    While heights can vary a bit panel to panel, even if we assumed that Parson was rather tall, erfworlders compared to him seem like they would be more around 4 feet. And Judy seems to be about the same height as the average erfworlder; if she's taller than its no more than an inch or two since its hardly noticeable. I could believe that maybe she was a short human if she was something more like a full head taller than the others; more like ossomer or Ace who are very noticeably taller than the average erfworlder.


    Not all Erfworlders are "short". For instance, given their relative heights compared to Ansom, Ossomer might actually have been taller than Parson:
    1)http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F145.jpg
    2)http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2009-11-07.jpg

    In the first page, Ansom comes to about Parson's chin/mouth, and Wanda is only a couple inches shorter than that, and in the second, Ansom only comes up to Ossomer's chest. In the picture for the latest update, Judy seems to be slightly taller than Wanda, making her about on par with Ansom's height. This would bring her, relative to Parson, to about his chin/mouth as well, which should still put her rather close to human averages.

    Now, since the only three pages that show Parson on Earth have him sitting down in every panel, judging his height in comparison to the norm for Earth(or even his gamer friends) is difficult, but Judy being about the same height as Wanda(or slightly taller) doesn't necessarily disqualify her from being from Earth.

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     Post Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:07 am 
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    Just wanted to mention, the assumption, from what I have seen is that the Arkenshoes are a fake created by Wanda.

    I would like to say that this is could possibly be false because Wanda might have been asking for the detailed description of the shoes to apply Lookamancy on it and find where Olive hid them.

    I say this because
    1) Wanda has been established to know Lookamancy by the time of Book 1, and has been confirmed to study on and have the potential for many different magic types.
    2) Details are important in Lookamancy, i.e. The Summoning of Parson in which Stanley added details thereby affecting the outcome.

    Wait.. ok scratch that. I was about to say that the Tools have a distinctive look to them that is, to say the least, out-of-this-world, and that moreover, people know when someone is attuned (though we don't know if Judy is attuned so that's not really an argument yet)

    But, judging from the picture it seems the art normally used for the Arken tools was not used. Huh. Damn, and I registered for it too :/

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     Post Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:33 am 
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    Avic wrote:
    Now, since the only three pages that show Parson on Earth have him sitting down in every panel, judging his height in comparison to the norm for Earth(or even his gamer friends) is difficult, but Judy being about the same height as Wanda(or slightly taller) doesn't necessarily disqualify her from being from Earth.

    For all we know, height may be form of signomancy for stupidworlders in Erfworld. Parson may be so big because of signomancy rather than because he came from earth. Another earthling might appear smaller than Stanley... (Perfect warlord may have size of troll, Perfect mage may instead be very small/harder to hit)

    The world may be inside a computer like Tron movie, and size of people may be just be numbers in computers memory.

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     Post Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:41 am 
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    Lone_ant wrote:
    Just wanted to mention, the assumption, from what I have seen is that the Arkenshoes are a fake created by Wanda.

    I would like to say that this is could possibly be false because Wanda might have been asking for the detailed description of the shoes to apply Lookamancy on it and find where Olive hid them.

    I say this because
    1) Wanda has been established to know Lookamancy by the time of Book 1, and has been confirmed to study on and have the potential for many different magic types.
    2) Details are important in Lookamancy, i.e. The Summoning of Parson in which Stanley added details thereby affecting the outcome.

    Wait.. ok scratch that. I was about to say that the Tools have a distinctive look to them that is, to say the least, out-of-this-world, and that moreover, people know when someone is attuned (though we don't know if Judy is attuned so that's not really an argument yet)

    But, judging from the picture it seems the art normally used for the Arken tools was not used. Huh. Damn, and I registered for it too :/

    Arkentools depicted in text updates usually don't get rendered the same way as they do in the regular comics. If that were the criteria for whether an item is an arkentool, then the Dish isn't a true Arkentool, per http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -03-12.png, as opposed to the Hammer (http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -03-23.png) and the Pliers (http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -11-19.png) which are both still rendered. I give the text updates a lot of leeway when it comes to the art.

    Although, if Haffaton's expansion was credited to having the Shoes, it would make sense for the RCC to form to stop GK before they had a chance to start their own expansion. Mildly hypocritical for JS to own the Pliers, but maybe they justified it to themselves by not being able to Attune. They still ruled by their Nobility instead of by their artifact.

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     Post Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:56 am 
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    I doubt they are a fake. A fake pair of shoes wouldn't help Judy be lucid. And Arkentools confer an Artifact Bonus, which would be apparent to Olive (as a commander she can see stats). While that may be faked, I doubt a novice in Foolamancy could perform with that level of detail.

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     Post Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:02 am 
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    name lips wrote:
    At this point, Judy is lucid and confronting Olive.

    She is the Ruler. There is no reason she can't just disband Olive with a thought, or command her to do whatever she wants.

    I wonder, as far as Duty is concerned, what happens if an Heir is absolutely convinced that the Ruler is leading the side to destruction. Would it be their Duty to croak or incapacitate the Ruler, so that they could take their place? Do units feel Duty to the Ruler, or to the Side?


    I think the answer to that question has to be "Yes", or not much more helpfully, "It Depends". We've seen the the Moneymancer Benjamin at the Transylvito court struggle with exactly that problem.

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     Post Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:02 pm 
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    Quote:
    The six of them looked around in confusion, but a hand grabbed hold of one of the hanging green curtains at the side of the hall, and pulled it aside. Behind it was a little booth, with metal tools or ornaments of some kind adorning it. Jillian didn’t recognize anything in there.


    A standard garden/tool shed? Or perhaps they've collected more of the Tools of Ark?

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     Post Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:12 pm 
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    Avic wrote:
    MonteCristo wrote:
    While heights can vary a bit panel to panel, even if we assumed that Parson was rather tall, erfworlders compared to him seem like they would be more around 4 feet. And Judy seems to be about the same height as the average erfworlder; if she's taller than its no more than an inch or two since its hardly noticeable. I could believe that maybe she was a short human if she was something more like a full head taller than the others; more like ossomer or Ace who are very noticeably taller than the average erfworlder.


    Not all Erfworlders are "short". For instance, given their relative heights compared to Ansom, Ossomer might actually have been taller than Parson:
    1)http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F145.jpg
    2)http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2009-11-07.jpg

    In the first page, Ansom comes to about Parson's chin/mouth, and Wanda is only a couple inches shorter than that, and in the second, Ansom only comes up to Ossomer's chest. In the picture for the latest update, Judy seems to be slightly taller than Wanda, making her about on par with Ansom's height. This would bring her, relative to Parson, to about his chin/mouth as well, which should still put her rather close to human averages.

    Now, since the only three pages that show Parson on Earth have him sitting down in every panel, judging his height in comparison to the norm for Earth(or even his gamer friends) is difficult, but Judy being about the same height as Wanda(or slightly taller) doesn't necessarily disqualify her from being from Earth.



    No that would be heights varying from panel to panel in a bit of note of inconsistency that i mentioned... Heck Ansom himself in that one page seems to shift sizes 2-3 times. In panel 8 he looks chin height (but it looks like parson is leaning down a bit), in panel 9 he looks significantly shorter, and in panel 10 he's only shoulder height

    And then we have pages like This and this
    Where maggie, who is again average for an erworlder in height, doesn't even come up to parson's chest
    And Jack... and Wanda... and Sizemore... and Various casters... and warlords... and ansom himself is no more than a few inches taller than these people(wanda's eyes are about level with his nose or mouth in that page you mentioned); so if they don't come up to parson's chest, he's not gonna come close to reaching his chin; he'd have to be more like ossomer's or ace's height to come close. Parson is most often drawn to be 2-3 heads taller than the average erfworlder... frankly, considering how much more often Parson is drawn as being really tall compared to everyone else, its clear the intention is for everyone in erfworld to appear to be very tiny compared to humans. Heck, in the summer updates Parson even takes note of how abnormally small the average archon is to himself. People in erfworld are not merely "short" by human standards, they are really tiny.

    Bringing this back to Judy; Judy appears just about the same height as wanda who is average by erf-standards and thus probably would not even come up to Parson's chest thus making her appear to being closer to 4 feet, rather than 4'11''. Really, i think if Rob was intending to make Judy from stupidworld, i think he would have made her much more notiacbly taller than wanda; like a full head taller; like how tall Janis/ossomer/ace are... that would make her short enough to be an erfworlder, but tall enough to be a short stupidworlder

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     Post Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:11 pm 
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    Or signamancy eventually alters even Stupidworlders' appearances. Judy Gale may have arrived in Erf as a young twelve-year old girl and was slowly morphed into the haggard Garlandesque woman we see today. Were she returned to Stupidworld, she may even regain her original appearance. It's all idle speculation though. Judy may be a native Erfworlder who picked up the word "kill" from Charlie.

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     Post Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:15 pm 
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    fehler wrote:
    I doubt they are a fake. A fake pair of shoes wouldn't help Judy be lucid. And Arkentools confer an Artifact Bonus, which would be apparent to Olive (as a commander she can see stats). While that may be faked, I doubt a novice in Foolamancy could perform with that level of detail.

    Possibly, but that could be explained away in that the artifact bonus is only visible when stacked with the wielder or that casters are not as adept as warlords at detecting those stats or that Olive is too disturbed at the moment to notice that detail.

    I do think that the spell that Wanda was really going to cast (before she was discovered by Olive) wasa Findamancy but now I see the arguments for a Dollamancy spell. Either way the details that she got from Judy would have been necessary for both spells. I originally thought Findamancy but then the thought occured as to why no other Findamancers had tried to get the Arkentools that way before. Perhaps that was because no one knew what they looked like or they have some power that prevents them from being obtained in such a fashion. Also, Wanda becoming more adept at Dollamancy as a result of this would explain where she is getting her current outfits from.

    Regardless, Haffaton had them and Olive took them away from Judy in order (I am assuming) to maintain her control over her. Real or facsimile's, Judy and Olive are about to butt heads soon!

    Tune in next week for "Olive, My Friends Are Junkies" or "Croakadile Shoes"

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     Post Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:53 pm 
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    Archameades wrote:
    Quote:
    The six of them looked around in confusion, but a hand grabbed hold of one of the hanging green curtains at the side of the hall, and pulled it aside. Behind it was a little booth, with metal tools or ornaments of some kind adorning it. Jillian didn’t recognize anything in there.


    A standard garden/tool shed? Or perhaps they've collected more of the Tools of Ark?


    Cute! But I was re-reading the text and noticed that Xin didn't give us much depiction of what this "booth" looks like.
    Jillian is being an unreliable narrator here. She cannot comprend what's actually there, because she's never seen anything like it.
    In the movie WOZ, behind the curtain is a control panel with knife switchs, meters and stuff that the Wizard uses to make noises, flames, and all sorts of special effects to bedazzle and intimidate his "subjects". http://www.flickr.com/photos/tom-margie/3088753084/

    On a more associative whim; ideas of booths and teleportation made my mind wander to a Dr.Who telephone booth.

    But the illustration doesn't help us here.

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     Post Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:09 pm 
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    @People discussing whether Wanda/Jillian possibly know the whereabouts of the Arkenshoes or not: Reread at panel 4

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     Post Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:16 pm 
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    Wait, in Return To Oz movie, didn't the Nome King end up wearing them after they fell off Dorothy's feet?
    Maybe when an attuned welder dies an arkentool disappears and randomly appears somewhere in Erfworld.?

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