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 Post Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:33 pm 
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effataigus wrote:
Kreistor wrote:
In short, it is fun to speculate about parallels in their functions at this point.
Fixed that for you.


Yeah, go to the Wiki and check out the History of teh Arkenhammer and Carnymancy to see the full scale war the proponents of this particular foolishness put me through. Not fun in any way. I correctly identified many of the Hammer's functions' schools, but no, it had to all be Carnymancy. And it even went on after we had the definition, and I was not part of that so you cannot blame me even one iota (having left the forum and wiki for a while to end the war, just to prove I wasn't the instigator... which succeeded). I've stayed off the wiki because someone went in afterwards and did to the Wiki exactly what I had been trying to achieve -- cleaning out most wild speculation and giving fair time to the various supportable spec, to end favoritism based on "which faction can control the wiki". (The funny thing is that after we did get that list, the leader of that faction sent me a message claiming victory, when what he had claimed was completely defeated. Somehow, he had perverted his mind to think he had argued for multiple schools, where he had been arguing for Carnymancy alone. He's gone now.)

Anyway, this Speculation about Tools having Primary associations to schools is clearly and obviously false without a lot more supportable statements in the comic, as per the definitions provided for us by the experts in the comic. Speculation may be fun, but it leads to factionalization, and that leads to argumentiveness. It leads to open warfare, and you can see that on the Arkenhammer Wiki entry, where four different factions warred to control the page. Much of what you see there is my effort to make the argument fair to all sides (I had the fourth, no discipline position), since some were deleting any counter-arguments, or perverting reasonable counter-arguments into foolishness. Speculation about what we don't know is cool, but this one we do know, for the moment. All that can change, but it will take more than the Shoes having a primary school. (BTW, the Arkenhammer page was never updated with the information from that Text Update. If some kind person wants to correct it, remove the Primary Discipline arguments that are a holdover of Book 1, since it is almost entirely false now, that would be great. For the reasons above, I'm staying off, still. With an increased counter-Kreistor position on this forum, I am not risking you lot perverting the Wiki the way the last lot of you that got into that mode did.)

I have fought this battle before.

youngstormlord wrote:
Actually, Carnimancy is magic of rigging the game. Taking and giving specials when it would suit them.


When an expert in magic, like Wanda, identifies a school for an ability, that is what school it is, even if you want it to be somewhere else, too. To my knowledge, we have yet to identify one effect coming from two different schools. Some effects, like Hoboken, are universal (or nearly so) and possibly school-less. But trying to make a case by shoe-horning everything you see into one small box doesn't validate a result, when there are plenty of other boxes you can do that and get a different one.

"Rigging the game" and "fooling people" is pretty much synonymous. I'm not arguing semantics on that any further.

My big point here is that no one school fits two effects of the Arkenhammer, per Wanda, so trying to identify a primary discipline is contra-indicated. What I can say is that it made Stanley a better Warlord, the way Wanda became a better Croakamancer. And to that, I'll also propose this for you to think about: did the Arkentools confer these powers, or did they become the powers the wielder wanted to have, sub-conciously? Would they have the same powers in the hands of another attuned user?Wadna's favoritism makes the Pliers good at Croakamancy? Charlie's paranoia makes him want to read the minds of his enemies? Stanley's low self-esteem causes the Hammer to make him the best Warlord, but with the chaotic effects of uncertainty? The Arkentools do not have to be anything right now, and we will learn more in time.

If not? This is foreshadowing. Someone is going to attune. Gotta wonder who it might be.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:36 pm 
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    Quote:
    Dame Branch folded her hands in front of her. She seemed about to reply, but a feminine voice suddenly spoke over them all, coming down from all directions at once.

    “My! Well,” said the voice of Judy, resounding through the hall. “I’m flattered that you like me enough not to want to kill me, Jillian. Batty as I am. Haha! I like you, too, kid.”

    The six of them looked around in confusion, but a hand grabbed hold of one of the hanging green curtains at the side of the hall, and pulled it aside. Behind it was a little booth, with metal tools or ornaments of some kind adorning it. Jillian didn’t recognize anything in there.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZR64EF3OpA

    The green curtain behind which the wizard of oz spoke, the "metal tools" may have some magic powers as well. (Thinkomancy artifact?)

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     Post Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:01 pm 
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    Wait, there's a wiki now? I didn't know that... So, what you are saying is that Arkentools are sort of magic lamps, something like Hogyoku from Bleach? So, did Ansom want to one hit kill uncroaked, or was that just a fluke of the pliers?

    Edit: arkendish for titans to watch the information sphere in stupid world, pliers to pluck whats important, hammer to hammer it into Erfworld in the form of humour and amusement :). That's what the Titans used them for!

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     Post Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:22 pm 
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    multilis wrote:
    Quote:
    Dame Branch folded her hands in front of her. She seemed about to reply, but a feminine voice suddenly spoke over them all, coming down from all directions at once.

    “My! Well,” said the voice of Judy, resounding through the hall. “I’m flattered that you like me enough not to want to kill me, Jillian. Batty as I am. Haha! I like you, too, kid.”

    The six of them looked around in confusion, but a hand grabbed hold of one of the hanging green curtains at the side of the hall, and pulled it aside. Behind it was a little booth, with metal tools or ornaments of some kind adorning it. Jillian didn’t recognize anything in there.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZR64EF3OpA

    The green curtain behind which the wizard of oz spoke, the "metal tools" may have some magic powers as well. (Thinkomancy artifact?)
    Those are the dials and controls on his "machine". I'm betting they control all sorts of other devices and tools.

    Also it appears that Wanda summoned an arkentool outright? Or maybe used a locator spell. No scrolls either. Somehow I think that must be high level findamancy. So does that mean she can still do it now? Find the arkenshoes?

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     Post Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:27 pm 
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    Kreistor wrote:
    This is foreshadowing. Someone is going to attune. Gotta wonder who it might be.

    Spoiler: show
    My guess.... Judy uses the Arkenshoes to return to Stupidworld. At some point, someone uses the scroll on Parson to return him to Stupidworld. Parson needs to get back, but how... Find, attune to, and use Judy Gale's shoes to get back to Erfworld.

    How's this for a far-out theory. Wanda is Fated to reunite all four Arkentools with attuned users. She's got a tool, the Tool has a tool. Charlie has a Tool. If the Arkenshoes are stuck in Stupidworld, she has to send someone to Stupidworld to get it... someone who will use them to get back. Maybe Wanda will use the scroll on Parson! (Also, it makes me want to go back and read the conversation between Wanda and Jillian about summoning Parson...

    Did Wanda want the spell to bring back Judy Gale? Was she commisserating with Jillian that she failed to that? I can't wait to see this all play out.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:39 pm 
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    To answer my own question, the wicked witch is seen here: http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/images/5/52/TBFGK_140.jpg and here: http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/images/c/ca/LIAB_57.jpg

    Neither time can you see her shoes.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:41 pm 
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    I note that witch as a full broom, not the burnt one that Judy carries.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:42 pm 
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    The fourth tool revealed.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:42 pm 
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    youngstormlord wrote:
    Wait, there's a wiki now? I didn't know that...


    Top of the page, beside the Comic link. And it's always been in my .sig.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:52 pm 
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    wrecan wrote:
    Spoiler: show
    My guess.... Judy uses the Arkenshoes to return to Stupidworld. At some point, someone uses the scroll on Parson to return him to Stupidworld. Parson needs to get back, but how... Find, attune to, and use Judy Gale's shoes to get back to Erfworld.

    How's this for a far-out theory. Wanda is Fated to reunite all four Arkentools with attuned users. She's got a tool, the Tool has a tool. Charlie has a Tool. If the Arkenshoes are stuck in Stupidworld, she has to send someone to Stupidworld to get it... someone who will use them to get back. Maybe Wanda will use the scroll on Parson! (Also, it makes me want to go back and read the conversation between Wanda and Jillian about summoning Parson...

    Did Wanda want the spell to bring back Judy Gale? Was she commisserating with Jillian that she failed to that? I can't wait to see this all play out.


    My reply:
    Spoiler: show
    Heh, okay, the Shoes taking Judy to Kansas is out there. Not without attuning, I think, and I don't think she is attuned: she's like Ansom with the Pliers, or Branch would be in flight. But she's got a nice stack. Missing a Warlord bonus, though, and not getting it from un-allied Jillian. Artifact bonus, anyway. But, in the end, all Judy has to do is Disband Branch and it's all over but the de-popping.

    I think it's Parson's fate to unite the Tool users. He's the one that needs to break the system, and the Tools are the obvious means to that end. he may not use them, but I think he'll be the one directing the effort, since only he has knowledge of how another world works. Anyone without extra-dimensional knowledge is probably doomed to create an inconsistent world that fails. Parson creates his own games, so has knowledge of how to create balanced and effective rules, so is more likely to create an Erfworld that can survive him. Wanda couldn't even conceive of babies, much less allow a world where she could conceive.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:02 pm 
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    The Arkenshoes? I wonder if anyone saw that coming?

    I guess Parson won't be using those... :D

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     Post Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:09 pm 
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    Kreistor wrote:
    effataigus wrote:
    Kreistor wrote:
    In short, it is fun to speculate about parallels in their functions at this point.
    Fixed that for you.


    Anyway, this Speculation about Tools having Primary associations to schools is clearly and obviously false without a lot more supportable statements in the comic.


    I just find this statement off. I mean how can something be obviously false if it's possible that more evidence might support it. The two clauses are kind of a contradiction.

    Kreistor wrote:
    Speculation may be fun, but it leads to factionalization, and that leads to argumentiveness.



    Kreistor wrote:
    With an increased counter-Kreistor position on this forum, I am not risking you lot perverting the Wiki the way the last lot of you that got into that mode did.


    You're pretty argumenative and pretty facionalizing. "You lot perverting the wiki". You do both in five(5) words!


    Sorry for not reading everything you say. Just wanted to point out a few things before I skipped along.

    Why parson doesn't know about the Ruby Slippers -
    If you thought he would change the world would you tell him of something that could take him home? Does Jack even remember? Would marie risk ruining a prediction?

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     Post Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:19 pm 
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    I'm quite certain that Orwell doesn't survive whatever's about to happen. In Book 1, when Jill tells Ansom and, later, Caesar, about how Faq was able to survive for so long, she says they used a combination of foolamancy and predictamancy, with no mention of lookamancy.

    The only characters guaranteed to survive Book 0 are Jack, Marie and Wanda (of the casters), Jillian, and King Banhammer.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:40 pm 
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    Those aren't the real Arkenshoes, they're a fake from Wanda. She wouldn't have spent the time getting their specifications from Judy before, and Balder wouldn't have pointed out repeatedly that she's OK with Dollamancy, unless she was going to create some fakes. She's trying to precipitate either Judy or Dame Branch taking an irrevocable action.

    Now, where the real ones are is an interesting question...

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     Post Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:44 pm 
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    @nargbop... that's a great idea. And if Jack is in on Wanda's plan, then his foolamancy could easily augment or replace Wanda's dollamancy. We already know he can use foolamancy to create illusory Arkentools as he confuzzled Jillian and the Transylvitians into thinking Stanley used the Arkenhammer to escape.

    Kreistor wrote:
    Spoiler: show
    Heh, okay, the Shoes taking Judy to Kansas is out there. Not without attuning, I think

    Spoiler: show
    I don't know about that. Unattuned, it may take you any place you've previously been (a useful tool, but not a game-breaking one). It's just that this unattuned use allows Judy and Parson a very specific interdimensional loophole. Or she's attuned, but being attuned didn't save her from Olive's hero buds.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:45 pm 
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    splintermute wrote:
    The only characters guaranteed to survive Book 0 are Jack, Marie and Wanda (of the casters), Jillian, and King Banhammer.

    That depends on when Book 0 ends. It may continue all the way to the fall of FAQ at the hands of Stanley.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:51 pm 
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    I just hope that, now that Judy's got her red shoes, she'll get a chance to dance the blues at some point...

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     Post Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:03 pm 
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    nargbop wrote:
    Those aren't the real Arkenshoes, they're a fake from Wanda. She wouldn't have spent the time getting their specifications from Judy before, and Balder wouldn't have pointed out repeatedly that she's OK with Dollamancy, unless she was going to create some fakes. She's trying to precipitate either Judy or Dame Branch taking an irrevocable action.

    Now, where the real ones are is an interesting question...

    Or a fake from Jack, since Wanda never got the chance to cast her "out of discipline" spell in the tower. Olive interrupted her, and then Banhammer arrived.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:19 pm 
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    If the shoes have left Erfworld, the stupidmeal might not even be counting them anymore; there may yet be one more arkentool out there. Having only four Arkentools causes issues establishing the rules behind how they work.

    If they are aligned with Fate and tied to a specific discipline, then there should be eight of them. Extrapolate out that the Pliers are on Corakamancy/Naughtymancy, and the dish is on thinkamancy/Eyemancy, then the other two should also be on the Motion axis of Fate -- one for Carnymancy and one for Dollamancy. Forcing the hammer into Carnymancy is a bit of a stretch to make it work with how the other two operate. Tying the shoes to Dollamancy may work. Pliers add Life to Motion and Matter (life to the uncroaked), Dish adds Life to Matter and Motion (bringing Charlie's thoughts to life in the form of Archons), and the Shoes add Life and Matter to Motion... concept breaks down some.....and the Hammer adds nothing to all three......

    If the Arkentools add Life to their respective disciplines that are already associated with Matter. Pliers add life to uncroaked units (good), Dish adds life to thoughts (stretch), shoes add life to dolls (good), and the Hammer adds life to carnival games (huh)?

    Or if the Arkentools boost their chosen discipline to unmatched levels... Pliers make unmatched uncroaked units, Dish makes for unmatched thinkamancer services, shoes make for unmatched dollamancer creations (eh, possible), and the Hammer makes for unmatched Carnymancy that is a combo of other smaller effects and controls dwagons?

    Or if the Arkentools simply provide for control of special units associated with the discpline on the Fate and Motion axis. It would be better with 8 tools, but the pliers have phenomenal uncroaked special units, the dish has the Archons, the shoes have the special dolls/golems, and the hammer has dwagons. Not sure how dwagons tie in to carnymancy, though. That may be a later reveal. Or they could just provide mastery over a particular unit... decrypted, dwagon, archon, and golem.

    Or if the Arkentools act similarly to the One Ring and boost the immediate desires and interests of the attuned. Stanley wanted to be a better warlord, better in combat, and this dwagon is getting unruly, how about I smack it over the head and make it behave. Wanda main interest is croakamancy and Fate, so the Pliers provided her a way to more fully bring the croaked back to the realm of the living. The shoes are a bit of a wildcard -- Judy could have really wanted some friends in the strange world she was in, and the shoes provided the golems....and later she really wants to go home, so the shoes make that happen. The Dish tunes in to Charlie's desire to be an information broker, while giving him a veritable army of hot young women who are very willing to do his bidding.

    The Arkentools tie Motion to the Fate axis, moving things and changing Fate. The Pliers move units from either the City of Heroes or the realm of the dead into Erfworld, changing their Fate from croaked to alive again. The Hammer moved a lowly piker to Warlord, and then to Ruler; also gave a piker ready access to flying mounts which greatly increased his ability to cover terrain. The Shoes might move Judy back to Earth/Stupidworld. The Dish moves thoughts an unlimited distance, and the Archons have some really high move. If this is the case, Jillian and her gwiffons/megalogwifs would make a suitable replacement for one of the current Toolists. Or Sylvia could take the same path as Stanley, moving from lowly stabber to Warlord, then onward to Ruler of her own side.

    The Shoes break the technological gap theory we had going, being that it is neither star-trek level advanced technology, ultra-simple tool, nor whatever bridged between pliers and hammer. I also don't really consider shoes to be tools, but then again I don't consider a satellite dish to be a tool either. Shovel, saw, scissors, pen, needle, axe, welding torch... those I consider tools.

    Whichever theory, there are some gaps. I am hoping that there are more Arkentools than just the 'four known'. Or that there are further developments in the story concerning the Arkendish or the Arkenhammer that will tie them together better.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:47 pm 
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    elynne wrote:
    I just hope that, now that Judy's got her red shoes, she'll get a chance to dance the blues at some point...

    All the Archons want to wear her red shoes[/elvis costello]

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