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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 101
 Post Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:21 pm 
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I see Sylvia getting blown out of her saddle in that second to last panel, so my guess is that she ends up reasonably safe from the blast, sheltered behind the red dwagon.

Not to say she won't be incapacitated from it.

That'd be an interesting battle, if both Ace and Sylvia are the only survivors, and both are incapacitated. I wonder if they'll trade insults hoping one of their barbs is sharp enough to do a point of damage. :D

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 101
     Post Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:25 pm 
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    Ya, i'm rather expecting that Ace croaked in that explosion... its not really clear how close he was, but it seems like it was a pretty big bang and he was unable to move.

    effataigus wrote:
    Lamech wrote:
    Its not really all that overpowered, especially if you aren't careful with it. Sure its great for Sylvia. But for her side?
    Don't think we know enough to judge at this point. If the spell is easy to come by, then every side out there should cast that on their Overlord. Admittedly, it would have been a lil hilarious if Jeffti had done so... I'm trying to imagine how hard pressed fate would be to pass off Queen Bea's death on someone who she wasn't going to kill in the process anyway.


    yes i can easily believe that, even if their are possibly some serious drawbacks, the spell may have required a trimancer link of somekind. Personally I'm of the theory that Jeffi got Charlie's help to cast the spell to save sylvia... in exchange Jeffi promised his service to Charlie should he ever be released from Unaroyal's service, hence why he is now working for Charlie despite Queen Bea making her casters promise to only work for royals.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 101
     Post Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:28 pm 
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    Ace is too awesome to get croaked like that. (I hope...)

    He also had his plushies between him and the explosion so he may have been shielded from the blast too.


    I really want to see him work for Parson, at least for a little while. Imagine the stuff they could come up with.

    If Ace survives, Parson might offer him his freedom in exchange for a few turns of work, though of course that depends on how everything else pans out.

    But yeah, I pretty much ship Parson+Ace (in terms of working together, not saucy stuff.)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 101
     Post Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:21 pm 
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    f Ace does manage to survive this and ends up working for Parson, I doubt he'll start mass producing machine guns, modern aircraft, tanks, or anything else that would severely alter the genre of the world. It's a magickal fantasy setting. At most, he'd make things like multishot ballistae, rapidfire crossbows, dirigible type golem that acts as a troop transport, camouflaging raiment, hamster-shaped mini-golems, or weapons with retractable blades. It pushes the boundaries of basic dollamancy, but still stays remotely in the realm of magickal fantasy. Now if he were to work with a Turnamancer, then we might start seeing more along the lines of steampunk or clockwork, but nothing to the extent of automated .50 cals and robotic sentries with jetpacks, lasers, homing missiles, and long-range autopilot.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 101
     Post Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:30 pm 
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    Beeskee wrote:
    Ace is too awesome to get croaked like that. (I hope...)

    He also had his plushies between him and the explosion so he may have been shielded from the blast too.


    I really want to see him work for Parson, at least for a little while. Imagine the stuff they could come up with.

    If Ace survives, Parson might offer him his freedom in exchange for a few turns of work, though of course that depends on how everything else pans out.

    But yeah, I pretty much ship Parson+Ace (in terms of working together, not saucy stuff.)


    Well i never said i expect him to STAY dead...
    While wanda is indeed out of the picture for now, it would not be impossible for him to get a decryption. If they don't get wanda to spacerock for some mass decrypting Parson can just drag his corpse back to GK.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 101
     Post Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:48 pm 
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    Mounts can take hits for their riders. Not sure if that works on an AoE like this.

    If Parson tries to abuse Dollamancy I doubt he'd just start mass producing modern weaponry. Or anyway, he might start doing that, but I doubt that would be the main direction that he'd go. He likes breaking things, remember. Make air units with extra-long-ranged attacks and insane in-hex speed so they can hit and run and not be retaliated against. Fire/poison gas balista/archer/whatever ammo to bomb enemy hexes in an attempt to wipe out all the units in the hex. Or just gas masks and poison for defense. Or hell maybe he'll just make beer-hats and fill them up with the healing elixirs for his warlords. If he can get Pierce.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 101
     Post Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:54 pm 
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    MonteCristo wrote:

    yes i can easily believe that, even if their are possibly some serious drawbacks, the spell may have required a trimancer link of somekind. Personally I'm of the theory that Jeffi got Charlie's help to cast the spell to save sylvia... in exchange Jeffi promised his service to Charlie should he ever be released from Unaroyal's service, hence why he is now working for Charlie despite Queen Bea making her casters promise to only work for royals.

    He's not working for Charlie. He is paying Charlie for services rendered.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 101
     Post Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:57 pm 
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    C9H20 wrote:
    But CAN he turn? Is he even theoretically capable?

    Book 1 tells us that he has an insane loyalty spell on him from the summoning, worse then what the decryped have for Wanda. To the point where I wonder if he would be able to exist if he wasn't serving Stanley. He could be free if Stanley died, but he is just as likely to depop as well.

    But is it a Loyalty spell, or an Obedience spell? There was a klog back in Book I that noted that those were two distinct forms of natural Thinkamancy.

    From the mistake Parson made about city management, we know that there is no guarantee that orders are understood as intended. So if his Duty (which is highest in a Chief Warlord) somehow tells him that it would be good for GK if he turned, it is conceivable that he could interpret an order from Stanley as giving him license to do so.


    Totally different epileptic tree:
    I wonder if Wanda could send a thinkagram to Antium to capture Parson and found a new Side at Spacerock? (I don't recall ever seeing that the founding of Sides is restricted to Chief Warlords or Rulers.)

    Why would she separate the Hammer and the Pliers? Well, suppose Charlie promised that he would arrange an alliance between Charlescomm (Dish), Caesar's new Side at GK (Hammer) and "Antium's" Side (Pliers), and the Predictamancers in the MK confirmed that some aspect of that would come to pass. (Or the Hammer might end up with Faq or directly with Charlescomm.)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 101
     Post Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:03 pm 
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    Chit Rule Railroad wrote:
    C9H20 wrote:
    But CAN he turn? Is he even theoretically capable?

    Book 1 tells us that he has an insane loyalty spell on him from the summoning, worse then what the decryped have for Wanda. To the point where I wonder if he would be able to exist if he wasn't serving Stanley. He could be free if Stanley died, but he is just as likely to depop as well.

    But is it a Loyalty spell, or an Obedience spell? There was a klog back in Book I that noted that those were two distinct forms of natural Thinkamancy.

    From the mistake Parson made about city management, we know that there is no guarantee that orders are understood as intended. So if his Duty (which is highest in a Chief Warlord) somehow tells him that it would be good for GK if he turned, it is conceivable that he could interpret an order from Stanley as giving him license to do so.


    Totally different epileptic tree:
    I wonder if Wanda could send a thinkagram to Antium to capture Parson and found a new Side at Spacerock? (I don't recall ever seeing that the founding of Sides is restricted to Chief Warlords or Rulers.)

    Why would she separate the Hammer and the Pliers? Well, suppose Charlie promised that he would arrange an alliance between Charlescomm (Dish), Caesar's new Side at GK (Hammer) and "Antium's" Side (Pliers), and the Predictamancers in the MK confirmed that some aspect of that would come to pass. (Or the Hammer might end up with Faq or directly with Charlescomm.)

    Lies, Libel, and Slander! The hammer stays with the Plaid Tribe. Sizemore's gonna attune to it. If that wench Jillian attunes to an Arkentool, then her and Wanda would get together to form the Arken Scissors.... with Charlie taping all of it from the Dish's recv and rcrd options, broadcasting to the netz.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 101
     Post Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:24 pm 
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    bladestorm wrote:
    f Ace does manage to survive this and ends up working for Parson, I doubt he'll start mass producing machine guns, modern aircraft, tanks, or anything else that would severely alter the genre of the world. It's a magickal fantasy setting. At most, he'd make things like multishot ballistae, rapidfire crossbows, dirigible type golem that acts as a troop transport, camouflaging raiment, hamster-shaped mini-golems, or weapons with retractable blades. It pushes the boundaries of basic dollamancy, but still stays remotely in the realm of magickal fantasy. Now if he were to work with a Turnamancer, then we might start seeing more along the lines of steampunk or clockwork, but nothing to the extent of automated .50 cals and robotic sentries with jetpacks, lasers, homing missiles, and long-range autopilot.


    I didn't think all that, but he did make a jetpack and grenades. I can see Parson explaining something like power armor in a way that Ace could produce an item that follows Erfworld's various rules and is still capable of being made by a dollamancer or maybe a dollamancer linked with another type of caster. Part of the reason I want to see them team up is that I want to see what they could create together that fits within the rules and theme of the world. Or, knowing Parson, to see just how far those rules can be bent.

    Right now the big impediment to Parson actually doing anything interesting is that his squishy self is vulnerable and there's no resurrection except as Wanda's toy/pet. If he had better protection, he could more readily wade into dangerous situations, maybe gain some levels, and then be even better suited to be in the thick of things. Otherwise, he runs the risk of being like Slately, sitting in a tower getting fat(ter) while all the interesting stuff happens to other people.


    MonteCristo wrote:
    Well i never said i expect him to STAY dead...
    While wanda is indeed out of the picture for now, it would not be impossible for him to get a decryption. If they don't get wanda to spacerock for some mass decrypting Parson can just drag his corpse back to GK.


    True, there's various ways folks can get decrypted even without Wanda directly on the scene. We haven't seen a time limit on decryption yet, but Ansom and the others at the GK battle were dead all night long and came through with most/all of their memories.

    The only problem is, from what we have seen so far, Parson isn't going anywhere unless he gets a mount he can ride. He's multiple turns from GK even by dwagon relay, I doubt Stanley wants his prize warlord spending a dozen+ turns walking back while being exposed out in the open where anyone can ambush him. Yet another reason I want to see Ace working for him for a few turns at least. Parson needs a ride.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 101
     Post Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:55 pm 
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    Chit Rule Railroad wrote:
    From the mistake Parson made about city management, we know that there is no guarantee that orders are understood as intended. So if his Duty (which is highest in a Chief Warlord) somehow tells him that it would be good for GK if he turned, it is conceivable that he could interpret an order from Stanley as giving him license to do so.


    I think Parson just doesn't have the ability to perceive unspoken orders. He got Sizemore to order him to speak before too and that worked, which shouldn't have if he had magically enforced Obedience. If it's Loyalty he should have been forced to stay/get back into command.

    Or else the spell just set him at max whatever and it's been getting lower ever since. Or the spell simply wore off over time/turns/walking through the portal. Or broke when he told Erfworld to fuck off.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 101
     Post Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:36 pm 
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    bladestorm wrote:
    f Ace does manage to survive this and ends up working for Parson, I doubt he'll start mass producing machine guns, modern aircraft, tanks, or anything else that would severely alter the genre of the world. It's a magickal fantasy setting. At most, he'd make things like multishot ballistae, rapidfire crossbows, dirigible type golem that acts as a troop transport, camouflaging raiment, hamster-shaped mini-golems, or weapons with retractable blades. It pushes the boundaries of basic dollamancy, but still stays remotely in the realm of magickal fantasy. Now if he were to work with a Turnamancer, then we might start seeing more along the lines of steampunk or clockwork, but nothing to the extent of automated .50 cals and robotic sentries with jetpacks, lasers, homing missiles, and long-range autopilot.


    He's already made jet pack, lazer pistols, a lazer gauntlet, and grenades. The grenades were seen and described by King Slately when he went into the room where Ace was storing stuff to call Don. They weren't named specifically, but the description was pretty well exclusive. So Ace is ALREADY creating modern and even futuristic weaponry. Besides, wasn't it marie who suggested that the method by which Parson puts and end to war is by making war so well that everyon gets sick of it? What better way than to watch our happy, pun filled Erf of Saterday Morning cartooon war devolve into a WWII meatgrinder killing field.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 101
     Post Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:55 pm 
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    cheeseaholic wrote:
    I think Parson just doesn't have the ability to perceive unspoken orders. He got Sizemore to order him to speak before too and that worked, which shouldn't have if he had magically enforced Obedience. If it's Loyalty he should have been forced to stay/get back into command.

    Or else the spell just set him at max whatever and it's been getting lower ever since. Or the spell simply wore off over time/turns/walking through the portal. Or broke when he told Erfworld to fuck off.

    It could be that his maxed Obedience isn't/wasn't specific to Stanley. In any case, it is odd that as Chief Warlord, he would take an order from Sizemore, who wasn't even Chief Caster. Maybe he's unusual in being compelled to obey an order from any unit on his side, as long as it doesn't contradict his Duty, but no one's thought to try it. (If this turns out to be the case, I hope it is discovered via an order that happens to include "Would you kindly".)

    It is interesting that even if his Loyalty had eroded throughout tBfGK, that his Duty as Chief Warlord didn't cause him to object to being replaced as Chief Warlord by a somewhat less imaginative zealot - though I'm not sure if the decrypted units' divided loyalty was apparent yet. Maybe, as Chief Warlord, Parson anticipated that he (Parson) would be able to provide most of his benefit to GK even after being demoted in favor of a warlord with a lot of leadership bonus, more mobility, and more field survivability, not realizing that he would lose his Duty-fueled motivation to do so - or not realizing that Stanley would be so abysmal at replacing Duty-fueled motivation with Loyalty-fueled motivation.

    Or these oddities could be oversights in the writing, but that's less fun to speculate about.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 101
     Post Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:08 pm 
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    It seemed to me during the reading that it was implied that the order from Sizemore worked because it was a loophole that Parson was intentionally exploiting. Since Stanley wasn't specific as to who could order Parson to be able to speak again Parson found someone willing to order it. An order from anyone would have worked in this reading even if it was from someone from a different side because Stanley's order wasn't specific and open to interpretation. Parson interpreted that in a very liberal way even though he knew it was not the intent, the intent wasn't actually important. Parson followed Stanley's order to the letter though Stanley may not have seen it that way if he noticed.

    Parson's magically forced obedience seemed to work completely to the letter of the order, not allowing him to make a peep until the conditions of the order were fulfilled however the intent of the order didn't seem to matter as long as the order was followed to the letter.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 101
     Post Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:07 am 
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    Chit Rule Railroad wrote:
    It could be that his maxed Obedience isn't/wasn't specific to Stanley.
    At one point in Everything Else Erfworld there was an awesome and actually fairly solid argument made that Parson's actions are more in keeping with loyalty to Wanda... wish I could remember the name of the thread. The whopper is that Parson doesn't actually start obeying Stanley until Wanda tells him to do so.

    http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F019.jpg

    Wanda being both the caster who summoned him and (we now know) an heir in her own right with motive and means, may just own Parson.

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    My poor defenseless Puritanical sensibilities!

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 101
     Post Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:35 am 
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    I'm surprised, looking at the page again there still seems to be a few Jetstone troops alive. I guess they are probably mostly unled now. Wonder how they handled the explosian, they seem to be a fair way back from it. Farther back than Silvia and Ace.

    effataigus wrote:
    Dancing Cthulhu wrote:
    Got yourself a high level warlord? Give him a jetpack and raygun and you've got a high level warlord who now has comparable abilities to an Archon (leadership, shockmancy, flight and the ability to be a great melee fighter). A stabber could be a lot more dangerous if he could throw grenades etc

    Not to imply that balance was a serious concern when Erfworld was created, but most of these Connecticut Yankee fantasies we are seeing here would be negated, or at least made approximately equivalent to golems, if there is upkeep on magical items. Admittedly, Parson would be the only one who knew how to fight with (and against) modern weaponry, so maybe a slight advantage there.

    Mostly, I think the same argument you make for it could be used against this happening: rule of cool. That **** was done by Mark Twain. Idea was old before WWI.

    EDIT: HAH... how's this for hypocrisy... I realized shortly after writing this post that the story I've been writing has strong elements of exactly this in it.


    Agreed.

    And I have always thought there must be an upkeep of some sort. Or a limit on the uses. Especially for Ace's gear - jet packs need fuel, ray-guns use whatever ray guns use (batteries, little atomic power houses etc). One would imagine an Erf-y magic equivalent powering them that'll be exhausted eventually (like Slately's cloaking device).

    Brucester wrote:
    I think this may have already been raised but aren't Red Dwagons immune to fire? Are their riders are then also immune to fire? I can see Sylvia potentially being squashed by falling debris or suffering explosive damage but while she's sitting on a Red Dwagon I don't think she's going to burn to death.

    I personally can't see Parson surrendering. He is bound by Duty, and I doubt Duty will allow him to do something tricky like that. I also think that he'll fail if he tries because Slately is convinced that Parson is the embodiment of evil. Slately won't deal with him. I think Slately is convinced that he's going to die, so will spill his guts and gloat over Parson.

    So, very few options:
    - Negotiate with Slately. Unlikely to succeed as he wants Deep and Crispy Parson.
    - Get onto a Red Dwagon. This would work if the rider is immune to Inferno. Parson would surely know whether that is the case or not. I personally think this isn't the answer though. It's too obvious and it would be an unsatisfactory escape for Parson.
    - Negotiate with Ace. Possibly. He wants to see his friend again. If Clone Slately vanishes I can see Ace doing a deal. He's not 'in' on the Charlie/JS plan to croak Parson.
    - Fight the Fire. Can't see that happening while Parson is separated from Sylvia - she's too keen to create an Inferno and Parson isn't in the right location to tell her to do otherwise. Also won't happen while JS controls the garrison, and hence not a possible option until Clone Slately vanishes.

    I think Parson will meet Slately, Slately will gloat then vanish, leaving neither side in control of the garrison. But with Clone-Slately gone, at least Parson can then negotiate..... With Ace.


    I don't know, Ace is incapacitated in a bad place in an area that is quickly becoming an inferno. Not ideal negotiating conditions for Parson - he'd need to get close enough to talk to him, convince him to do whatever, and do it quickly enough for them to stop the fire becoming an inferno. Without a dirtmancer around they can't extinguish an inferno, just try and escape it.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 101
     Post Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:43 am 
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    effataigus wrote:
    Chit Rule Railroad wrote:
    It could be that his maxed Obedience isn't/wasn't specific to Stanley.
    At one point in Everything Else Erfworld there was an awesome and actually fairly solid argument made that Parson's actions are more in keeping with loyalty to Wanda... wish I could remember the name of the thread. The whopper is that Parson doesn't actually start obeying Stanley until Wanda tells him to do so.

    http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F019.jpg

    Wanda being both the caster who summoned him and (we now know) an heir in her own right with motive and means, may just own Parson.

    God damn, I think you're right. That sneaky witch!

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