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 Post Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:42 pm 
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Bad Asses were already the 1st entry in the Beastiary. Dark Archons gain Hoboken on their list of random specials, and all get Projection for free now.

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     Post Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:06 pm 
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    MarbitChow wrote:
    Bad Asses were already the 1st entry in the Beastiary. Dark Archons gain Hoboken on their list of random specials, and all get Projection for free now.

    Huh, I don't know how I missed that. :lol:

    And thanks for the Archon buff. ;) (It'll be easier to convince the rest of the group that we should pop one, now.)

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:53 am 
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    Werebiscuit wrote:
    MarbitChow wrote:
    I'm not getting how this works with the bolded and underlined statements. At level 4 I can select 4 different combat modifiers but why the once /level ? shouldn't it be that I can select them only once ? no need for the per level unless at level 4 i can select the same one 4 times.... and if so why state it as the 1st statement then forms the limit ?

    perhaps some examples to add clarity would be in order ?


    Quick example: 4th level unit takes the two abilities to give him +5 Combat Modifiers, so he gets to use 9. He declares Dodge x4 (+12 defense) and Take Cover x4 (+16 Defense), plus Block. 4 archers shoot at him, then on the next phase, William shoots at him. His Dodge and Take Cover are now exhausted, since he's used them against 4 attacks, and William shoots him without the +28 defense he got against the other archers.


    Marbit... with the new squad fire rules. I'm not sure the example you gave makes sense anymore since archers can no longer "shoot at him" unless they have Call the shot
    How would it work with squads composed of different level units ? Do lower defs ALWAYS get hit first ? Do you average to get the def of the "squad" ? Or are you planning to randomise targets and then look at individual com/def pairings ?

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:22 am 
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    Werebiscuit wrote:
    Marbit... with the new squad fire rules. I'm not sure the example you gave makes sense anymore since archers can no longer "shoot at him" unless they have Call the shot
    How would it work with squads composed of different level units ? Do lower defs ALWAYS get hit first ? Do you average to get the def of the "squad" ? Or are you planning to randomise targets and then look at individual com/def pairings ?

    Well, the above example assumed that the unit wasn't in a squad at the time, so it should still be valid. When resolving firing on a squad, I intend to select randomly (although I'm leaning towards weighting units in the 'front' twice as likely as the rear units), and then resolve as if the unit had been specifically targeted.

    But that brings up a good point. I've added the clarification "For Fire attacks, an entire squad counts as a enemy" to support and coordinate, so that the bonuses still make sense.

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:32 am 
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    MarbitChow wrote:
    But that brings up a good point. I've added the clarification "For Fire attacks, an entire squad counts as a enemy" to support and coordinate, so that the bonuses still make sense.


    Doesn't that just make fire attacks that much more deadly ? As an archer stack now gets +21 to 8 individual attacks ? Instead of the current +21 to one attack against an individual ? plus 7 attacks at -2 ?

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:52 am 
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    Werebiscuit wrote:
    MarbitChow wrote:
    But that brings up a good point. I've added the clarification "For Fire attacks, an entire squad counts as a enemy" to support and coordinate, so that the bonuses still make sense.

    Doesn't that just make fire attacks that much more deadly ? As an archer stack now gets +21 to 8 individual attacks ? Instead of the current +21 to one attack against an individual ? plus 7 attacks at -2 ?

    Yeah, Fire attacks are already buffed up enough. Support and Coordinate still make sense for Fire attacks that are randomly selected, because the odds are that you'll have multiple attacks on some units (especially if you're increasing the odds of hitting the "front" ones).

    That way, it would also discourage single units separating from their stack and going off on their own, because that would allow enemy archers to focus fire on that unit more effectively than they would on a full stack. And it makes sense that it's easier to coordinate an attack on fewer targets, where there's less stuff to get in the way.

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:59 am 
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    Nnelg wrote:
    Werebiscuit wrote:
    Doesn't that just make fire attacks that much more deadly ? As an archer stack now gets +21 to 8 individual attacks ? Instead of the current +21 to one attack against an individual ? plus 7 attacks at -2 ?
    Yeah, Fire attacks are already buffed up enough. Support and Coordinate still make sense for Fire attacks that are randomly selected...

    Let's talk this through...

    Example 1:
    A squad of 8 archers all use mighty blow and coordinate. Each archer picks 1 other archer to gain the benefit - say they pair off. Each archer is now +6 Combat / -2 Defense. This squad targets an enemy squad. Each unit gets the bonus.

    If I didn't do that, both coordinating archers in the same squad would have to (randomly) hit the same unit in the enemy squad in order to get the benefit of Coordinate, but unless they had Call the Shot, they couldn't guarantee it. This way, as long as all archers calling Coordinate pick the same squad, they've met the condition and can get the bonus.

    Example 2:
    A squad of 7 archers and 1 paragon, with the archers using support & coordinate to buff the paragon, and the paragon using Mighty Blow and Call the Shot. The archers add +42 combat to the Paragon's attacks, as long as they're all firing into the same stack that the Paragon is selecting his target from. The Paragon can take 2 shots, dropping 2 different units in the squad. The other 7 shots are resolved randomly.

    -----

    You've got 2 options: Support / Coordinate can target squads, or Support / Coordinate cannot be used for Fire actions at all. Those are the only two interpretations I'll allow. I'm not going to try to track and resolve which random hits are affected by units supporting & coordinating on the same target. As I've said before, when I resolve an attack, I'm going to throw out any rules that require me to check the results of other actions in order to resolve the current one. I can fairly easily recheck the status of the target in sequence if I need to fix an issue, but if I need to change the order of events and that leads to different bonuses being applied to an attack, I'm almost guaranteed to miss it, so I won't allow them.

    I don't want to complicate determining combat bonuses per unit by postponing that until after targets are determined. I want a simple check so I can cut/paste all combat bonuses for similar targets, then start resolving target selection and damage. Therefore, Support/Coordinate targets squads, or Fire can't use it at all. Anything else introduces too much complexity.

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:16 pm 
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    MarbitChow wrote:
    I don't want to complicate determining combat bonuses per unit by postponing that until after targets are determined. I want a simple check so I can cut/paste all combat bonuses for similar targets, then start resolving target selection and damage. Therefore, Support/Coordinate targets squads, or Fire can't use it at all. Anything else introduces too much complexity.

    In that case, I'd think it would be better to leave it to the infantry, and say Fire attacks can't use it. Archers are already powerful enough.

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:34 pm 
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    MarbitChow wrote:
    0beron wrote:
    How does Leadership affect that? is it still a free action to change on their round like before?
    No, changing stacks requires spending an Action. There are no 'free restacks' any more. Units (including the squad leader) can drop from a stack for free. A unit with Leadership can select up to 7 other unstacked units to create a stack by spending an action. Dollamancers & Croakamancers with the appropriate ability behave similarly, although only golems / uncroaked can be part of their squads.
    This only requires an action on the part of the leading unit, leaving the units that they're newly stacked with still free to act, correct? So a warlord can swap stacks and then have the stack he just joined shoot, for example.

    MarbitChow wrote:
    You've got 2 options: Support / Coordinate can target squads, or Support / Coordinate cannot be used for Fire actions at all.
    Of those... I think I'm inclined to go with the latter option. Possibly make an exception for units with Call the Shot- if you've got an entire squad of called-shot capable units, they might get a little more flexibility, but otherwise archers are already really strong.

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:43 pm 
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    Exate wrote:
    This only requires an action on the part of the leading unit, leaving the units that they're newly stacked with still free to act, correct? So a warlord can swap stacks and then have the stack he just joined shoot, for example.
    Yes, but note the following from the Squad rules:

    Quote:
    All Stacks and Hordes are Squads. Each Squad has a Squad Leader. Any unit can be a Squad Leader. If a Squad Leader drops from a stack (due to a Regroup action or being croaked), the former Squad Leader can designate a Command Unit in the Squad to become the Squad Leader as part of the Regroup action. If no other Command Units are in the Squad, all members of the Stack are dropped as well, and each will need to spend a Regroup action to join a new Squad. Squad Leadership is not visible to other Sides.
    So, while any units can group into a squad, if the leader drops, there must be another command-capable unit that remains in the squad to keep the squad cohesive, otherwise they all have to spend an action reforming and choosing a leader as well. (Basically, they spend an action arguing about who's in charge.)

    Exate wrote:
    Of those... I think I'm inclined to go with the latter option. Possibly make an exception for units with Call the Shot- if you've got an entire squad of called-shot capable units, they might get a little more flexibility, but otherwise archers are already really strong.
    I'm almost certain every non-archer unit will argue for that, and I'm inclined to go that way myself, as it makes the melee units more capable, but I'd still like to hear from the Archer players before they get nerfed again. :)

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:11 pm 
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    Well I for one, am all for nerfing Archery as it makes me All the more powerful! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAQHAHAHAHAHA

    Edit: Also would that rules change go into effect before the upcoming missions?

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:17 pm 
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    ETheBoyce wrote:
    Edit: Also would that rules change go into effect before the upcoming missions?
    Yes. Support / Coordinate needs to be clarified before any squad combat occurs.

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:11 pm 
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    Exate wrote:
    MarbitChow wrote:
    You've got 2 options: Support / Coordinate can target squads, or Support / Coordinate cannot be used for Fire actions at all.
    Of those... I think I'm inclined to go with the latter option. Possibly make an exception for units with Call the Shot- if you've got an entire squad of called-shot capable units, they might get a little more flexibility, but otherwise archers are already really strong.

    Except units with Call the Shot are already level 4 (and so don't need more buffs) and have Paragon (which would make entire Squads with it unlikely).

    Archers already have more than enough flexibility. They can still shoot through units, at a range that is practically the entire battlefield, with 100% accuracy, and no penalties for moving or being mounted.

    Frankly, they're about as effective as modern firearms. The only thing that keeps them from completely dominating is the incredibly small scale we're working with. Giving massed archers more benefits would move the setting forwards several centuries.


    Personally, I think they could use even more nerfs. Seperate to-hit and damage rolls, to-hit penalties for moving, more restrictive LOS rules... But that's as much a matter of taste as a balancing issue, so I'm not pressing them. (Yet...) ;)]

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    Last edited by Nnelg on Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:26 pm 
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    Nnelg wrote:
    Seperate to-hit and damage rolls, to-hit penalties for moving, more restrictive LOS rules...
    Not gonna happen. Consider that Word of God.

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:28 pm 
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    MarbitChow wrote:
    Nnelg wrote:
    Seperate to-hit and damage rolls, to-hit penalties for moving, more restrictive LOS rules...
    Not gonna happen. Consider that Word of God.

    Again, that's why I'm not pushing for it. :lol:


    Another rule that needs clarification:
    Quote:
    All Squads have an Order which is made up of one Tactic, and one Attack [Target]. The default Order is Hold, Target (Any). Orders are set at the start of Combat, and can only be changed at the start of each round.

    Since all Tactics currently listed use single coordinates, I'm going to assume this means we won't be able to have NPCs in the same stack move in different directions. However...

    Will we be able to order our NPCs to keep a specific formation?

    Or at least have specific NPCs "follow" other units? As in move at the same time as that unit, to a spot adjacent to it? It would be necessary for things like Bodyguards, and to make sure vulnerable units (like the Alt Elves) stay screened.

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:31 pm 
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    Nnelg wrote:
    Will we be able to order our NPCs to keep a specific formation?
    When a squad moves, it moves in formation. You won't need to order them to, and you can't order them NOT to without disbanding the squad.

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:47 pm 
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    Well, I might be a little biased, but I don't see why making coordinate and support target stacks is such a big deal. It has the same effect as the normal version, given that actually hitting a target is still random.

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:16 pm 
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    bob the 6th wrote:
    Well, I might be a little biased, but I don't see why making coordinate and support target stacks is such a big deal. It has the same effect as the normal version, given that actually hitting a target is still random.
    Melee units can grant up to 7 Support / Coordinate actions to an 8th unit against a single target, but all 8 units have to be able to hit the target, and ...

    Crap. I just re-read the rules I wrote, and the words "any adjacent ally" are there, implying that it spreads out. That should be "An adjacent ally...", as in ONE. That's not going to fly.

    Anyway, back to 'why it's a big deal': military units that coordinate against a target have to all be able to hit the target, as well as be adjacent to the unit they're boosting. For spearmen and warriors, that limits the maximum number of units that can assist. For archers, any amount of units can hit the same unit. An archer on a mount that takes up 3x3 squares (such as a dwagon) could have 16 adjacent archers all targeting the same unit (or stack). Even level 1 Zed archers could grant +48 combat that way. Skilled level 1s could add +96, and regular level 2s +198 already!

    Melee units can't pull the same trick, since they've got to be able to be adjacent to the main attacker as well as be able to hit the victim, putting a realistic upper-limit of around 8 units on a single target. Using a mount to increase the number of adjacent squares doesn't help this situation, because most of the units adjacent to the mount can't reach the victim any more.

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:25 pm 
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    A clarification on all the modifications to Fire - do casters still have the ability to target specifically (Call the Shot, right?) or are we "dumb" shooters too now?

    Methinks BLAND may not like the direction this is all going... :P

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:30 pm 
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    Well we've never really abused the support/Coordinate trickery

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