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 Post Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:19 pm 
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On the same subject but using a different person:

It does appear, as has been stated, that fate does have specific "save zones". Think about your storyline first person (or other) game where once you hit that marker you can rest assured that if you die then all of your accomplishments up to that point are forever preserved for better or for worse.

The Erf Save Zones are kind of opposite those but work in a similar fashion. Call them Fate Zones. Specific things will happen. Fate doesn't care when, what, or how but is really interested in who. This is what makes predictomancy work and fail at the same time. If a predictomancer states that you will die from a tree falling on you, that fate can be delayed by you moving your entire kingdom to the desert and only using stone as building materials, but ultimately that tree will arrive because fate cannot move on until you land on that Fate Zone. Once used, all previous material (the hard way or the easy way) is saved as the natural events leading up to this moment and the game continues. A similar analogy would be akin to unlocking new content. Erf is stuck in a specific holding pattern until the individual players figure out what needs to be done to move to the next scene.

The example I use of Fate points being very Deus ex Machina is that of Sylvia. We keep talking about how a Carny is responsible for her dice rolls, but I'm not sure that this is the case. Sylvia own one of the Fate Points and died before she jumped on the marker (I am guessing a predictomancer would have said that she was fated to lead in the killing a king who wasn't a king while destroying a capital city that wasn't a capital, very bait and switch to tie her to the carny games of chance). In order to keep Erfworld from being stuck permanently in this current stage, an absolutely crazy situation involving a love affair and permanent dice roll theft was introduced by fate in order to 1. preserve the story and 2. allow Sylvia to rise in rank and gain enough arrogance to 3. ignore standing orders and order the destruction of herself and others in order to 4. force the not-king to put himself in a position where he can die and the story can progress.

I don't see a future for Sylvia after this siege. She's already ignored orders, has a death wish, continues to make poor decisions, and has taken too much screen time that I don't think someone of her skill-set should have in the next book. She has been fantastic and has done a fantastic job getting everything to where it should be, but I personally believe that after a life filled with so many stolen 6's, she will finally have to stare into a sad set of snake eyes and accept her fate.

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     Post Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:42 pm 
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    Shai_hulud wrote:
    The Sky wrote:
    “You are thirsty,” said the pale sky. “I can see it in your body. I’ll get you some water.”

    She can see inside her body. Does anyone suppose that's croakamancy? Sense current anatomical/biological state?

    That would be my interpretation, yes.

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:20 am 
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    Now Jillian's invitation of "Let's get high", from when she and Wanda faced off over Jetstone, seems a lot more meaningful.

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:38 am 
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    Shai_hulud wrote:
    The Sky wrote:
    “You are thirsty,” said the pale sky. “I can see it in your body. I’ll get you some water.”

    She can see inside her body. Does anyone suppose that's croakamancy? Sense current anatomical/biological state?

    Yeah, she spoke of her Croakamancy senses a lot in part one, she studied Atomic's body with them looking for a cause of death as one example. I wasn't certain it extended to the living, but I recall her being able to see the destruction of matter in a burning fireplace. That suggests she can see within matter, all matter.

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:21 am 
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    Except she didn't understand the volcano without Sizemores help. I'm guessing it's just biological matter, like the log.

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:41 am 
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    Shai_hulud wrote:
    Except she didn't understand the volcano without Sizemores help. I'm guessing it's just biological matter, like the log.

    Seeing something and understanding something are two entirely different things.

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:33 am 
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    Whispri wrote:
    Shai_hulud wrote:
    Except she didn't understand the volcano without Sizemores help. I'm guessing it's just biological matter, like the log.

    Seeing something and understanding something are two entirely different things.

    She could sense all of the parts, but she didn't know what did what within the system. She was looking for parts that she'd find within a living body, and found none. Sizemore's senses were more in tune with the matter of the erf, so he interpreted her search for a heart to be the magma pocket. Sizemore could sense all of the parts within the volcano, but he lacked the power to bring it back to 'life'. Thus the need for the tri-link, rather than a double link to either of Sizemore or Wanda to accomplish the same thing.

    The sensing of the destruction of the log may not even be associated with Croakamancy. It could be a completely different discipline's senses that she could tap into. That's one of the main drawbacks of using Wanda as canon info for Croakamancy. Senses are even worse to pinpoint, since even Sizemore can sense other forms of magick, as he did when he first touched the SPW scroll, and when he could identify the carnymancy of Jojo's scroll despite not knowing exactly what the scroll did.

    We so need a non-Wanda Croakamancer tat only uses Croakamancy. Then we may finally have some definitive answers as to what Croakamancy actually does.

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:59 pm 
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    bladestorm wrote:
    Whispri wrote:
    Shai_hulud wrote:
    Except she didn't understand the volcano without Sizemores help. I'm guessing it's just biological matter, like the log.

    Seeing something and understanding something are two entirely different things.

    She could sense all of the parts, but she didn't know what did what within the system. She was looking for parts that she'd find within a living body, and found none. Sizemore's senses were more in tune with the matter of the erf, so he interpreted her search for a heart to be the magma pocket. Sizemore could sense all of the parts within the volcano, but he lacked the power to bring it back to 'life'. Thus the need for the tri-link, rather than a double link to either of Sizemore or Wanda to accomplish the same thing.


    That's a pretty good explanation of the tri-link in book one. It makes me wonder if just a croakamancy-thinkamancer link would allow the creation of something similar to what the pliers do, intelligent undead loyal to Wanda. They wouldn't be decrypted exactly because they would still rot, but you could probably get pretty close given a thinkamancer's mastery and understanding of the mind.

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:25 pm 
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    bladestorm wrote:
    Whispri wrote:
    Shai_hulud wrote:
    Except she didn't understand the volcano without Sizemores help. I'm guessing it's just biological matter, like the log.

    Seeing something and understanding something are two entirely different things.

    She could sense all of the parts, but she didn't know what did what within the system. She was looking for parts that she'd find within a living body, and found none. Sizemore's senses were more in tune with the matter of the erf, so he interpreted her search for a heart to be the magma pocket. Sizemore could sense all of the parts within the volcano, but he lacked the power to bring it back to 'life'. Thus the need for the tri-link, rather than a double link to either of Sizemore or Wanda to accomplish the same thing.

    The sensing of the destruction of the log may not even be associated with Croakamancy. It could be a completely different discipline's senses that she could tap into. That's one of the main drawbacks of using Wanda as canon info for Croakamancy. Senses are even worse to pinpoint, since even Sizemore can sense other forms of magick, as he did when he first touched the SPW scroll, and when he could identify the carnymancy of Jojo's scroll despite not knowing exactly what the scroll did.

    We so need a non-Wanda Croakamancer tat only uses Croakamancy. Then we may finally have some definitive answers as to what Croakamancy actually does.

    What I find interesting about the Wanda-Sizemore linkup, is that Sizemore came out of it having learned more, not just about his mountain, but about the very fundamentals of his craft. And Wanda's been seen using Dirtamancy on screen. Could she have Mastered Dirtamancy? Not having an instant grasp of how to turn a dormant volcano live wouldn't preclude that to my mind, that was an entirely new trick.

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:38 pm 
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    bladestorm wrote:
    Whispri wrote:
    Shai_hulud wrote:
    Except she didn't understand the volcano without Sizemores help. I'm guessing it's just biological matter, like the log.

    Seeing something and understanding something are two entirely different things.

    She could sense all of the parts, but she didn't know what did what within the system. She was looking for parts that she'd find within a living body, and found none. Sizemore's senses were more in tune with the matter of the erf, so he interpreted her search for a heart to be the magma pocket. Sizemore could sense all of the parts within the volcano, but he lacked the power to bring it back to 'life'. Thus the need for the tri-link, rather than a double link to either of Sizemore or Wanda to accomplish the same thing.

    This was my interpretation all along. Wanda's Croakamancy is Matter and Motion, where Dirtamancy is only Matter. Sizemore couldn't bring the volcano back to 'life' because he didn't have the right element. Sizemore needed her to get things moving. Croakamancy is on the Fate axis, Dirtamancy is on the Erf axis. Wanda might have the right elements, but her magic works on the wrong things. Wanda needed him to guide the magic to the right axis. The Thinkamancer was necessary to guide and facilitate the link, as with all links.

    Matter+Motion on the Erf axis is Shockamancy. Maybe a Masterclass Shockamancer could have done it, but I doubt that kind of power is within the reach of a single caster. I suspect that with a Thinkamancer in the mix, there's some kind of synergistic thing going on, where the power of the three combined is greater than the sum of the individuals. Hence, big badda boom!

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    "The principle of strategy is to know ten thousand things by having one thing." - Miyamoto Musashi, The Book of Earth, Go Rin No Sho

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     Post Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:12 am 
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    Housellama wrote:
    Matter+Motion on the Erf axis is Shockamancy. Maybe a Masterclass Shockamancer could have done it, but I doubt that kind of power is within the reach of a single caster. I suspect that with a Thinkamancer in the mix, there's some kind of synergistic thing going on, where the power of the three combined is greater than the sum of the individuals. Hence, big badda boom!

    Three times the level, all the knowledge of two classes, triple the juice, triple the equipment bonuses, with the thinkamancer energy management and three minds to hold the spell together? Yeah, I bet some sort of synergistic boost is going on. I'm guessing some trimancer spells that are fairly "simple" and instead just powerful spells from multiple disciplines are probably theoretically possible for a single caster to do. Maybe a caster with a level around 30 and a master in croakamancy and dirtamancy could have pulled of the volcano spell on their own, depending on how much the thinkamancers help counts for.

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     Post Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:55 am 
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    Shai_hulud wrote:
    The Sky wrote:
    “You are thirsty,” said the pale sky. “I can see it in your body. I’ll get you some water.”

    She can see inside her body. Does anyone suppose that's croakamancy? Sense current anatomical/biological state?
    My guess would be that Wanda can see the state of a captive of her side, just as she can see the state of a member of her side.

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    Zeroberon wrote:
    So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.

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