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 Post Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 3:39 pm 
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Orzel wrote:
Which brings up another thing.
If Olive is trying to turn Jillian but can barely afford her army, how can she pay for Jillian's upkeep after she turns? Either she is planning to get Jillian killed shortly after turning or the part of the Haffaton army with an upkeep is not at the "cap".

IIRC, they're already paying her upkeep as a prisoner.

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     Post Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 3:47 pm 
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    Orzel wrote:
    how can she pay for Jillian's upkeep after she turns? Either she is planning to get Jillian killed shortly after turning or the part of the Haffaton army with an upkeep is not at the "cap".


    Once Jillian has turned she will be put to work doing something productive. It's not a matter of being unable to afford the upkeep, or she wouldn't be alive now; it's a matter of the upkeep being wasted as long as she's a useless prisoner.

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     Post Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 3:57 pm 
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    WaterMonkey314 wrote:
    Say, if Wanda hinted at something but never fully explained it to Jillian, the latter might have incorrect assumptions about her influence on Wanda.


    Just like Wanda had incorrect assumptions regarding her influence on Jill, in Book 1.

    Also, I'm curious what a "cold turkey" would look like in this comic. Can't wait to see one! That also makes me wonder if we'll see another Beatle! It would be so fitting at the moment :D

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     Post Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:46 pm 
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    goldenboy wrote:
    Also, I'm curious what a "cold turkey" would look like in this comic. Can't wait to see one! That also makes me wonder if we'll see another Beatle! It would be so fitting at the moment :D


    Or four of them? And perhaps Wanda appearing in one of Jillian's "dreams" as a starry figure in the sky...

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     Post Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:39 pm 
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    Jillian: "Excuse me while I kiss the sky."

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     Post Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:20 pm 
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    Mogster2 wrote:
    Heh, nice Hitchhiker's reference.


    Yes, I caught that one too... a slight stretch and groan.

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     Post Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:11 am 
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    Predictamancy is so hokey, it's my least favorite aspect of Erfworld. Once predictamancy has manifested itself, it destroys anyone who strays from it's path, like an iron maiden.

    At the same time, it's exactly the kind of uncompromising storytelling I've come to expect and enjoy from Erfworld. Just as we get caught into seemingly unbreakable ruts in life, the same thing happens in Erf, just in a slightly more magical way.

    With that having been said, I want Parson to annihilate predictamancy. I want a TPK on predictamancy. I want him to break the back of whatever force believes itself to be inevitable.


    Last edited by Zeku on Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:55 am 
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    Quote:
    “I do,” said the sky. “I want that rather desperately.” The white sky faded to gray, then to a starless black. The land stayed lit. “Almost as desperately as I want it to end.”

    Jillian looked up into the featureless void that stretched from horizon to horizon, and swallowed. “That’s really sad,” she said.
    Wanda is the saddest suicidal emo. T.T

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     Post Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:06 am 
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    Nice acid trip update.

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     Post Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:24 am 
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    joosy wrote:
    Mogster2 wrote:
    Heh, nice Hitchhiker's reference.


    Zaphod's just this guy, you know? :)


    A combined Hitchhiker's/Hendrix reference. Nerd nirvana!

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     Post Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:55 am 
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    Well played, Rob.

    When an author deliberately makes you believe that a character is unkind or evil, and later reveals that the character's actions were in fact the kindest they could take (or, when perhaps the character misunderstood which actions would be kind or unkind)... well played.

    Wanda's not just a sad emo suicidal. That's just a dumb meme. (Sorry! That's just how I feel. I'm not saying you're dumb for meme-ing it.) Wanda has tried to kill herself, and it has failed. That's what I think.

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     Post Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:58 am 
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    It seems like the problem with predictamancy is that people have a hard time wrapping their heads around it.

    Obviously the correct thing to do is to try to "vent" predictions in the manner that's the most favorable or least disfavorable to you or your side. Same as any other force, presumably -- luck, numbers, etc. If you know you're going to lose a unit to some side, arrange favorable terms of trade for that unit. If you're capital is going to fall, allocate resources in such a way that makes it strategically most optimal. If you know you're going to be ambushed, just prepare for the ambush.

    Predictions constrain but do not determine what is going to happen -- what happens is any number of possibilities that match some more general description of an event. So when you get a prediction, you work to ensure that the most favorable of those constrained possibilities occur.

    But people ignore (Jillian) and/or rebel (early Wanda) against it instead of trying to work with it.

    I don't totally get it. It seems like in a world where predictamancy is a real thing, people would have better adapted by now.

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     Post Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:02 pm 
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    Only one item slot for head gear, apparently. Crown of thorns has NOREMOVE flag.

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     Post Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:12 pm 
    Battle Crest Pins Supporter E is for Erfworld Supporter Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter Year of the Dwagon Supporter This user was a Tool before it was cool Ruler of Erfworld Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter This user is a Tool!
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    This section of this story sort of needs to end. It's kind of depressing. :-/

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     Post Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:48 pm 
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    Amado wrote:
    Wanda's not just a sad emo suicidal. That's just a dumb meme. (Sorry! That's just how I feel. I'm not saying you're dumb for meme-ing it.) Wanda has tried to kill herself, and it has failed. That's what I think.

    Actually I was referring to this: http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/LIAB_38:8
    Parson wrote:
    You are the most emo optimist I've ever met.

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     Post Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:12 pm 
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    Quote:
    Obviously the correct thing to do is to try to "vent" predictions in the manner that's the most favorable or least disfavorable to you or your side. Same as any other force, presumably...

    Not so obvious as we don't really know what predictomancy is. We have opinions from Wanda and others that could be wrong.

    The predictions could be part of a "master plan" by some unseen force "Fate" towards a specific goal. Trying to do things the easy way, may really only make things worse rather than what Wanda thinks is better. For example handing Wanda over early may have been even worse for Wanda's original family.

    Original book, Parson before erfworld was trying to railroad his players into losing and wanted them to find a way to cheat to win.

    ...

    FAQ tried to do things the "easy way" according to their interpretation of thinkomancy and instead may have ended up taking longer. If they had followed Jillian's plan rather than fear that was their doom because of the prediction, FAQ may have been much better off.


    Last edited by multilis on Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:24 pm 
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    Zeku wrote:
    Predictamancy is so hokey, it's my least favorite aspect of Erfworld. Once predictamancy has manifested itself, it destroys anyone who strays from it's path, like an iron maiden.

    At the same time, it's exactly the kind of uncompromising storytelling I've come to expect and enjoy from Erfworld. Just as we get caught into seemingly unbreakable ruts in life, the same thing happens in Erf, just in a slightly more magical way.

    With that having been said, I want Parson to annihilate predictamancy. I want a TPK on predictamancy. I want him to break the back of whatever force believes itself to be inevitable.


    I tend to think of it as similar to what you experience in an actual game -- some characters are not "allowed" to die in one level as they're a vital part of the game plot and as such must survive the level or you have to replay it.

    In Erf, we lack a mechanic that would allow a "level restart", especially since there could always be a scenario that would force a "replay" an obscene number of times until the "fated" survived. So, the alternative is to make it actually impossible for a "fated" to outright die, but so the world's not completely "unbalanced" towards the "fated", Luckomancy is adjusted such that the "fated" still survive, but at high cost to those around them that they value, and even to their own well-being just short of croaking.

    So, our opinion of fate should be commensurate with what that fate ultimately converges to. Which begs the question: Has there ever been a "fated" that was not relevant to the current world situation? An isolated "fated" that ultimately had no significant bearing on the existance of the current characters?

    In storytelling, think of "prequels" that set the background for a current story. Those characters are "fated" at least in the sense that their cumulative actions must set the stage for the sequel, but it's also entirely possible that the prequel has a side plot that is not relevant to the main plot -- where the author has to pad out the pages, for example, or suddenly finds one formerly incidental character to be quite compelling, even though their existence is not critical to the sequel.

    If "fated" characters are inextricably linked -- where one character must set the stage for another, even if their contribution is not obvious to the final result, and that final result is a reasonably ideal Victory State for the existing world, then Fate Magic does have redeeming value.

    If there is a disconnect between "fated" -- if there are fates that have no bearing on the final outcome -- then Fate Magic is very likely a destructive magic and one to be feared, as even some "fated" have meaningless existence.

    If Fate does not lead toward an ultimate end result -- a steady state where the world war is indeed perpetual and "Fated" are simply there to ensure no Victory State -- or if it does ultimately lead to a Victory State that is also evil, then Fate Magic should be something Parson should endeavor to "break" as it is an evil concept.


    Last edited by El Chupacabra on Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:29 pm 
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    "In Erf, we lack a mechanic that would allow a "level restart""

    Do we? If it was restarted, those involved would not know of previous runs.

    Possible fate simple rewinds the game to a save point as soon as goals are not met. I do that if playing a game and a key character dies that will be needed later.


    Last edited by multilis on Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:30 pm 
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    multilis wrote:
    ...

    FAQ tried to do things the "easy way" according to their interpretation of thinkomancy and instead may have ended up taking longer. If they had followed Jillian's plan rather than fear that was their doom because of the prediction, FAQ may have been much better off.


    FAQ is pretty well-off... they survived for a very long time listening to their predictamancer, then even ensured that they'd be re-founded after their predicted destruction. As of now, FAQ has survived longer than any side we know of besides Charlescomm - I'd say they're pretty well-off.

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     Post Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:35 pm 
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    Quote:
    FAQ is pretty well-off... they survived for a very long time listening to their predictamancer, then even ensured that they'd be re-founded after their predicted destruction. As of now, FAQ has survived longer than any side we know of besides Charlescomm - I'd say they're pretty well-off.

    TV has done better than FAQ. No idea how Jetstone has done, etc.

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