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 Post Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:47 pm 
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Urf wrote:
Why are we assuming Charlie "likes" blue? Is there a reference to Charlescomm being blue?

Archons are blue units. No matter what costume they are in, it has blue in it. LiaB Text 17 depicts the Charlescomm fortress as tones of grey and Blue. Its capital is a level 5 mountaintop city clad in blue, topped by the ominous Arkendish. (Incidentally, in that depiction, the dish is not rendered in 3d like the rest of the arkentools)

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     Post Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:46 am 
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    bladestorm wrote:
    Why would she not finish the job and attune to the dish? Olive's power, plus uncroaking, plus the Arkendish would make for a virtually untouchable side. The Arkendish could still be a ruse that is finally coming back to bite Charlescomm in the boop. He's lied about having an Arkentool for so long that now everyone believes the lie and he is being associated with the real Toolists.


    1) Maybe she did. There's an unknown reason why Stanley refuses to ally with Charlie: maybe it's because Wanda convinced Stanley that Charlie was an enemy.

    2) Wanda learned about her fated attunement in FAQ. She wouldn't be seeking Arkentools during her Haffaton phase.

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     Post Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:31 am 
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    Quote:
    law of fives


    The existence or actual effect of the Illuminati is not well established. I'm being polite.

    It would be silly to just pick your favorite number and list what you think makes it special. Every natural number up to about 40 (and many others) has a wide variety of uses, meanings, and appearances in all kinds of ancient histories, cultures, religions, and so forth.

    The druids divided all of their wisdom into triads, groups of three, and they are responsible for the existence of modern universities, as well as being the cultural bind that led to the rise of the british empire to near complete mastery of the world.

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     Post Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:56 am 
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    This could be important. Parson's summoning:
    http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_18

    Quote:
    Parson Gotti: No.
    I understand.

    Panel 12
    Wanda remains rooted in place, cocking her head and looking at Parson with a head-cocked, slightly bemused expression. Parson, meanwhile, is still holding his head in his hands.

    Wanda Firebaugh: You do?

    Parson Gotti: Yes. I'm...doing the "Wizard of Oz" thing.[3]

    Or more likely...
    I'm having a stroke, or I'm in a coma.
    Parson looks up, his face screwed up in pain as he squints and frowns unintentionally. He's taken one hand off his head but the other is pressed to his left temple.

    Parson Gotti: Are you a sorceress?

    Wanda Firebaugh: Yes.

    Parson Gotti: Do you have a headache spell?
    Wanda Firebaugh: Yes!

    Wanda Firebaugh: Or... To cure one? No.

    If I had that, I would never stop casting it.
    Parson Gotti: Boop me in the boop.


    Now, imagine that instead of Parson it is Judy and instead of Wanda it is Olive.

    Judy: Are you a sorceress?

    Olive: Yes.

    Judy: Do you have a headache spell?
    Olive: Yes!

    Olive: Or... To cure one? No. I have a flower. But the side-effects include...

    Judy: Gimme, gimme, gimme! I'm sort of in lot of pain, dude!

    During Jill's tale, we have seen that Olive has a flower or potion for cold, hunger, pain... All sorts of things! Poor Judy didn't stand a chance.

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     Post Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:29 am 
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    jkosta wrote:
    2) Wanda learned about her fated attunement in FAQ. She wouldn't be seeking Arkentools during her Haffaton phase.

    Not necessarily. She had contact with both Marie and Jack while she was chief caster of Goodminton, long before she sided with Faq. She could have received her prediction about attuning while visiting the Magick Kingdom either while sided with Goodminton or with Haffaton. Narratively, it would make more sense for Wanda to get her prediction about attuning and then turn against Haffaton seeking her Fate, rather than leaving over love of Jillian. Granted, Jillian is in Faq, but so is Marie, and Marie would have at least some answers concerning the prediction. Wanda seems too emotionally detached to change sides based upon love, but she has been shown to use her body to further her own agenda. Use Jillian to get closer to Marie.

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     Post Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:47 am 
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    bladestorm wrote:
    jkosta wrote:
    2) Wanda learned about her fated attunement in FAQ. She wouldn't be seeking Arkentools during her Haffaton phase.

    Not necessarily. She had contact with both Marie and Jack while she was chief caster of Goodminton, long before she sided with Faq. She could have received her prediction about attuning while visiting the Magick Kingdom either while sided with Goodminton or with Haffaton. Narratively, it would make more sense for Wanda to get her prediction about attuning and then turn against Haffaton seeking her Fate, rather than leaving over love of Jillian. Granted, Jillian is in Faq, but so is Marie, and Marie would have at least some answers concerning the prediction. Wanda seems too emotionally detached to change sides based upon love, but she has been shown to use her body to further her own agenda. Use Jillian to get closer to Marie.


    Now I'm confused... are you arguing that Wanda knew that she was going to attune before Haffaton conquered Charlescomm mk.1 but after Charlie had attuned and after Wanda was already a part of Haffaton, but that Wanda refused to take the Arkendish from Charlie because it wasn't really an arkentool?

    If so, Wanda thinks otherwise.
    http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -02-10.jpg

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     Post Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:35 pm 
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    effataigus wrote:
    Now I'm confused... are you arguing that Wanda knew that she was going to attune before Haffaton conquered Charlescomm mk.1 but after Charlie had attuned and after Wanda was already a part of Haffaton, but that Wanda refused to take the Arkendish from Charlie because it wasn't really an arkentool?

    If so, Wanda thinks otherwise.
    http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -02-10.jpg

    That whole interchange is so veiled, with neither side stating what they really mean. How is GK attacking Jetstone getting Wanda any closer bringing to the Arkentools together? GK has two of the four known tools. The fourth tool has only been mentioned, and they know who supposedly holds the third. Let's go beat up on a royal side that has already given us their tool while completely ignoring the holder of the third tool. Doesn't make sense. Does Jetstone have another tool that they have been holding on to? The shortcake doll maybe? Is attacking Jetstone and obliterating the Royal sides somehow going to weaken Charlescomm, or make him get along with GK any better? A big deal was made about the first two Arkentools. The Arkendish is all but ignored as a prospect, and the fourth is just 'known'. Something is not adding up about the Arkentools and Charlescomm.

    And what I was arguing was that we don't know when in the timeline Wanda received her prediction, or why/when she went to Faq. We can't dismiss something based upon a timeline we don't know. We also don't know on that timeline when Stanley attuned to the hammer, or when Jetstone came into possession of the Pliers.

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     Post Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:43 pm 
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    bladestorm wrote:
    effataigus wrote:
    Now I'm confused... are you arguing that Wanda knew that she was going to attune before Haffaton conquered Charlescomm mk.1 but after Charlie had attuned and after Wanda was already a part of Haffaton, but that Wanda refused to take the Arkendish from Charlie because it wasn't really an arkentool?

    If so, Wanda thinks otherwise.
    http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -02-10.jpg

    That whole interchange is so veiled, with neither side stating what they really mean. How is GK attacking Jetstone getting Wanda any closer bringing to the Arkentools together? GK has two of the four known tools. The fourth tool has only been mentioned, and they know who supposedly holds the third. Let's go beat up on a royal side that has already given us their tool while completely ignoring the holder of the third tool. Doesn't make sense. Does Jetstone have another tool that they have been holding on to? The shortcake doll maybe? Is attacking Jetstone and obliterating the Royal sides somehow going to weaken Charlescomm, or make him get along with GK any better? A big deal was made about the first two Arkentools. The Arkendish is all but ignored as a prospect, and the fourth is just 'known'. Something is not adding up about the Arkentools and Charlescomm.


    Your thinking would be fine IF Jetstone would leave GK alone. But they wouldn't; they have started Royal Coalition number 2 the moment Ansom croaked. The only reason to attack Jetstone was to cripple and kill coalition before they're strong enough to threaten GK.

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     Post Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:59 pm 
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    The Overlord who ruled from Efbomb is the Overlord we currently know as Charlie. Rob writes as if his audience is intelligent enough to draw conclusions such as that, and Rob is not so cruel to his audience so as to pull a "gotcha" of this nature. I don't regard it as "confirmed," but I regard it as "damn near confirmed."

    Erfworld is not literally the actual Oz. Judy Gale is not the Dorothy of the story -- otherwise her name would be Dorothy. Rob changed that, for reasons. And so Charlie is not the Wizard of the story. BUT!

    Erfworld has a way of mirroring pop-cultural references from Stupidworld. It's the world's Natural Signamancy: things there acquire appearances that mirror their meanings. It means something that these circumstances look, to us, like the Wizard of Oz story. Judy IS analogous to Dorothy, and Charlie to the Wizard.

    So Judy and Charlie are not Erfworld natives. Whether summoned or just accidentally whisked there -- or whether from Stupidworld or somewhere else in the multiverse -- not determined.

    Again, in my mind this isn't "confirmed," but I regard it as "damn near confirmed."

    (I'm guessing "whisked there" and "Stupidworld," but those are just guesses.)

    I'm intrigued enough by the "Charlie is a Carnymancer" theory to go along with it. But mostly, I'm interested to see what further parallels from the Wizard of Oz story are going to play themselves out.

    Bravo, Rob!

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     Post Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:13 pm 
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    Soooo, Dame Olive is Glenda the Good Witch? Ahahahahahahaha. And that's why a good portion of the people in the Wizard of Oz are munchkins. Ahahahahahaha.

    I haven't read every page of every reaction, so I'm sure this was discussed earlier, but I find it interesting that "Parson" has a meaning of "clergyman" (or cleric -> healer) which is derived from the deeper meaning of "person". So Parson is a "real" (as in "from our world (Stupidworld)") person. Heh.

    Likewise, "Charlie" means "free man". Also hinting at Stupidworld-origin.

    Do we know if Stupidworlders age on Erf? If they do, then Charlie's quest for eternal strife to power his enterprise loses some punch, as at some point, he'll die (without being croaked). If not, it makes perfect sense, as who wouldn't want to spend eternity manipulating the entire world like your personal gameboard surrounded by uber-willing playboy models? In that vein of thought, I agree that Parson was summoned to be the "real person" to foil the "real person being a real jerk".

    On the other hand, my personal belief is that Charlie and Judy came here via means other than being summoned. I think one or both were accidents/unintended consequences.

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     Post Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:51 pm 
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    TheTuna wrote:
    What's perhaps even more interesting is the revelation that Charlie used to run a normal side.


    I'm not sure of that. Assuming the Wizard who now likes blue is Charlie, his city wasn't a normal city - it was the most powerful city in the world. It became a normal city after Judy defeated him and let him go.

    Theory: Judy was somehow brought here from Stupidworld. Things she did after her arrival somehow broke Erfworld, starting the endless cycle of sides and turns and endless wars.

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     Post Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:13 pm 
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    Cantripmancer wrote:

    Do we know if Stupidworlders age on Erf? If they do, then Charlie's quest for eternal strife to power his enterprise loses some punch, as at some point, he'll die (without being croaked). If not, it makes perfect sense, as who wouldn't want to spend eternity manipulating the entire world like your personal gameboard surrounded by uber-willing playboy models? In that vein of thought, I agree that Parson was summoned to be the "real person" to foil the "real person being a real jerk".


    Interesting, everyone in the Land of Oz was immortal as well except for the Wizard of Oz, who did actually age in the story (Dorothy probably would have as well). But in this case, I'm going to go with Parson and anyone else else from stupidworld probably not aging, since they do seem to follow the vast majority of rules everyone else in Erfworld follows, with the exception being no statblock and the ability to curse in Parson's case.

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     Post Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:49 am 
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    KainFlinn wrote:
    Parson is large because he's Parson (fat, larger than life). A stupidworlder with different traits might have a different natural signamancy.
    Parson is fat, but he's certainly not "larger than life." No one could use that expression for a Kinko's employee with a run down car who lives in a wreck of an apartment (or is it his parent's basement?) and spends all of his creative energy on game design. No one.
    bladestorm wrote:
    All that means is that he put more effort into his con.
    Enough effort that the author felt compelled to render the 'dish just as the other two 'tools are rendered, just to fool or confuse the readers? Mmmmnnnn, not seeing it.
    bladestorm wrote:
    Wanda made an attempt at the Hammer, and that fell through. She made an attempt at the Pliers on several occasions and finally attuned to them. Not once did she mention going after the Arkendish. If Charlie is the wizard, he's already been defeated once. Why would she not finish the job and attune to the dish?
    Well first off, you've got your facts out of wack. We haven't seen any prior effort by Wanda to capture the 'pliers, much less "several occasions." She got the 'pliers due to the volcano, which was entirely Parson's doing as far as planning goes, and was a last ditch effort at that. It was an attempt to pull some kind of victory out of utter defeat, not an attempt to capture the 'pliers. Yes, Parson calculated favorable odds that GK would have the 'pliers by the end of their turn. But again that was never mentioned amongst GK planning as a primary goal. They were always just trying to live to see the next turn, not maneuvering to capture the 'pliers.

    Oh, and how does a carnymancer gain an unmatched command of thinkamancy, if not via an artifact such as the 'dish?

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     Post Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:13 pm 
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    Oberon wrote:
    KainFlinn wrote:
    Parson is large because he's Parson (fat, larger than life). A stupidworlder with different traits might have a different natural signamancy.
    Parson is fat, but he's certainly not "larger than life." No one could use that expression for a Kinko's employee with a run down car who lives in a wreck of an apartment (or is it his parent's basement?) and spends all of his creative energy on game design. No one.
    bladestorm wrote:
    All that means is that he put more effort into his con.
    Enough effort that the author felt compelled to render the 'dish just as the other two 'tools are rendered, just to fool or confuse the readers? Mmmmnnnn, not seeing it.
    bladestorm wrote:
    Wanda made an attempt at the Hammer, and that fell through. She made an attempt at the Pliers on several occasions and finally attuned to them. Not once did she mention going after the Arkendish. If Charlie is the wizard, he's already been defeated once. Why would she not finish the job and attune to the dish?
    Well first off, you've got your facts out of wack. We haven't seen any prior effort by Wanda to capture the 'pliers, much less "several occasions." She got the 'pliers due to the volcano, which was entirely Parson's doing as far as planning goes, and was a last ditch effort at that. It was an attempt to pull some kind of victory out of utter defeat, not an attempt to capture the 'pliers. Yes, Parson calculated favorable odds that GK would have the 'pliers by the end of their turn. But again that was never mentioned amongst GK planning as a primary goal. They were always just trying to live to see the next turn, not maneuvering to capture the 'pliers.

    Oh, and how does a carnymancer gain an unmatched command of thinkamancy, if not via an artifact such as the 'dish?

    The only reason Stanley agreed to release Jillian was because they knew Ansom would ride to her rescue and they'd be able to gain the pliers then. Vinnie talked Ansom out of going. The pincher maneuver after the dwagons took out 40% of the seige, aimed at croaking Ansom and obtaining the pliers. Aerial combat in GK's airspace when the uncroaked Webinar dismounted Ansom from his flying carpet. Then again as she was crawling across the garrison floor to try to claim them.

    Trilink three thinkamancers for unmatched thinkamancy. He could also have played around with other trilinks, such as a turnamancer-dittomancer trilink to really crank up production of his Archons.

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     Post Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:33 am 
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    Oberon wrote:
    Well first off, you've got your facts out of wack. We haven't seen any prior effort by Wanda to capture the 'pliers, much less "several occasions." She got the 'pliers due to the volcano, which was entirely Parson's doing as far as planning goes, and was a last ditch effort at that. It was an attempt to pull some kind of victory out of utter defeat, not an attempt to capture the 'pliers. Yes, Parson calculated favorable odds that GK would have the 'pliers by the end of their turn. But again that was never mentioned amongst GK planning as a primary goal. They were always just trying to live to see the next turn, not maneuvering to capture the 'pliers.


    Wanda does try to get the pliers, right after she knocks them away from Ansom in book 1 she disengages and goes after them.

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     Post Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:58 am 
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    Also, unless their abortive crusade for the arkentools was basically running around in circles searching for the known-but-location-unknown fourth tool, or doing nothing in particular, or going after Charlie... they were aiming for the arkenpliers. They did croak some number of Jetstone field units, and Jetstone hardly kept its possession of the arkenpliers secret. Seems unlikely that they weren't aiming for them previously, even if they never got all that close.

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     Post Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:53 pm 
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    Zeku wrote:
    Quote:
    law of fives


    The existence or actual effect of the Illuminati is not well established. I'm being polite.

    It would be silly to just pick your favorite number and list what you think makes it special. Every natural number up to about 40 (and many others) has a wide variety of uses, meanings, and appearances in all kinds of ancient histories, cultures, religions, and so forth.

    The druids divided all of their wisdom into triads, groups of three, and they are responsible for the existence of modern universities, as well as being the cultural bind that led to the rise of the british empire to near complete mastery of the world.

    I was kinda being sarcastic, and referring to the Illuminati Trilogy (and related spin-off books) as being a possible literary universe that's one of the bleed overs (lime the Oz books).

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     Post Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:02 pm 
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    Zeku wrote:
    Quote:
    law of fives


    The existence or actual effect of the Illuminati is not well established.

    The font of all knowledge disagrees!

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     Post Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:29 pm 
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    I now officially really want the wizard to not be Charlie, because fake foreshadowing amuses me :P

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     Post Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:37 pm 
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    Itoh wrote:
    Wanda does try to get the pliers, right after she knocks them away from Ansom in book 1 she disengages and goes after them.
    There is a significant difference between going for the gun your opponent just dropped and having a careful plan to disarm your opponent and get their gun. Wanda's entire pre-engagement chant/poem was all about killing Ansom, and not about getting the 'pliers.
    drachefly wrote:
    Also, unless their abortive crusade for the arkentools was basically running around in circles searching for the known-but-location-unknown fourth tool, [...]
    Seems about right to me.

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