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 Post Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:39 am 
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MarbitChow wrote:
Werebiscuit wrote:
The corollary is that beserker gives me +4 without a stack or in a stack on non-dancers. Marbit do both or neither have any effect on your combat round or siege damage ? ( I read about dance fighting not affecting siege but what about beserk ?)
The phase you act is still based on your base Combat.
Siege Damage is now based on Structural Points, which normal units don't inflict - only Coil has the ability via Hoboken. Damage done with Siege, against either structures or units, is a flat amount of damage, although siege weapon attacks ignore defense. You can't rage with a Siege weapon any more, either - they have to be reloaded before they can fire again. This should have the effect of Rams doing the fastest damage once they reach the structure; Coil is now probably the single most effective Siege unit, but also the squishiest. :D


Thanks Marbit
So Well armed adds to your base combat but Berserker doesn't ? ( the rules don't differentiate...both just say +x to combat)

That leaves me with one question . Who amongst the PC's has dance fighting ?

2 questions actually ...Swodaems..or anyone...how often do you think we'll be with a stack of NPC's ?

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     Post Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:48 am 
    E is for Erfworld Supporter Battle Crest Pins Supporter Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter This user is a Tool! Year of the Dwagon Supporter This user was a Tool before it was cool Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter
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    Werebiscuit wrote:
    2 questions actually ...Swodaems..or anyone...how often do you think we'll be with a stack of NPC's ?
    The better we do as a side, the more often we'll be with NPC stacks. As we get larger armies and have to spread out the PCs to attend to multiple critical areas, each PC will have more accompaniment; if we get trapped in a single city or otherwise forced into a defensive position where we can't pop that many troops, we'll end up with lots of PCs per NPC.

    So the optimist in me says "all the time", and the pessimist says "not nearly so often as we'd hope".

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     Post Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:56 am 
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    Werebiscuit wrote:
    So Well armed adds to your base combat but Berserker doesn't ? ( the rules don't differentiate...both just say +x to combat)
    No, Berserker modifies your Base Combat. Any Ability that grants +X Combat modifies the base. Any ability that grants +X [Type] Bonus is added afterwards. So, Inspiration will be a bonus (unlike the last scenario, in which it was modifying their base score and making them react faster).

    Yes, that means that Mighty Blow makes you react faster, currently.

    I really suspect that combats under the new rules are going to be a whole lot deadlier... which is a bit more in spirit with the comic. If I'm doing my job correctly, your side should not have nearly as many units after each battle as you have been previously. :)

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     Post Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:06 pm 
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    MarbitChow wrote:
    No, Berserker modifies your Base Combat. Any Ability that grants +X Combat modifies the base. Any ability that grants +X [Type] Bonus is added afterwards. So, Inspiration will be a bonus (unlike the last scenario, in which it was modifying their base score and making them react faster).


    Aha... no brainer then... +1 defence loss to stack for 4 to base combat that is there whether with stack or not.
    plus only Rudy (Bob the 6th) has dance fight.

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     Post Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:16 pm 
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    MarbitChow wrote:
    Exate wrote:
    That means that if we're willing to dump the treasury into it, we could pop literally hundreds of natural allies at the start of turn 13 and launch an all-out assault immediately afterward
    Ack. I think I'm going to have to nerf the Natural Ally summoning cost. Breatheairia has more cash than you, and if they can pop 200 Marbit archers in a city the turn before you attack, you'll be in a world of hurt...
    ...
    Natural allies need to be useful, but the way they're set up right now, they're a free win for the defenders, if they've got enough money. I think I'm going to have to bump their cost from 25/UP to 100/UP.
    That's still a free win for the defenders if they've got enough money- it just sets the bar a bit higher. I think there must be some other limitation involved; take the comic as evidence of this, because we know that Gobwin Knob had 150,000+ shmuckers on hand after summoning Parson and yet they didn't dump that into popping hundreds (or thousands) of gobwin and hobgobwin units, in spite of the fact that by everything we know they could have.

    Maybe each natural ally can only pop one other natural ally in a turn? That would slow things down a bit, at least- it would hold the numbers of natural allies to no more than doubling their stacks from one turn to the next, even with a massive cash dump.

    MarbitChow wrote:
    But since you can pop equipment now (in the form of structures), let's say that popping a Mining Pick costs 0.5 UP. Thoughts?
    Popping Mining Picks seems fine. The cost here seems reasonable; my reaction is that it's maybe a little on the high side if anything (is a Mining Pick really worth half a sapper?) but we haven't seen them in action yet, so who knows. I would think they could also be crafted by Dollamancers somewhere in their abilities; equipment is pretty much what Dollamancers do.

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     Post Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:29 pm 
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    Exate wrote:
    Maybe each natural ally can only pop one other natural ally in a turn? That would slow things down a bit, at least- it would hold the numbers of natural allies to no more than doubling their stacks from one turn to the next, even with a massive cash dump.
    Let's keep it simpler: A city pops as many natural allies in a turn as they get UP. Natural Allies effectively double their production. That eliminates the "richer side" issue. We'll keep the cost at 25/UP then.

    Exate wrote:
    I would think they could also be crafted by Dollamancers somewhere in their abilities; equipment is pretty much what Dollamancers do.
    Technically, they don't create equipment - they enchant it. They need to have the pieces to begin with. But an enchanted mining pick WOULD make a cool accessory, and Dollamancers get to invent new ones. Too bad your dollamancer is going the Holly Shortcake route. :twisted:

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     Post Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:55 pm 
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    MarbitChow wrote:
    Exate wrote:
    Maybe each natural ally can only pop one other natural ally in a turn? That would slow things down a bit, at least- it would hold the numbers of natural allies to no more than doubling their stacks from one turn to the next, even with a massive cash dump.
    Let's keep it simpler: A city pops as many natural allies in a turn as they get UP. Natural Allies effectively double their production. That eliminates the "richer side" issue. We'll keep the cost at 25/UP then.

    Actually... I don't see where the problem is. If one side has money saved up to spawn a ton of natural allies in one turn, they've payed for it in the opportunity cost of having those allies earlier. But... I can see the opportunity for exploits if the rate of popping is not regulated.

    I think Marbit's idea (effectively basing the rate on city size) is good, but perhaps a bit too strict. It might be better if the limit was twice the normal popping rate, allowing for effectively triple production. (I've no idea how that'll affect the balance, though, so I'm probably wrong.)

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     Post Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:58 pm 
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    Since x1 pop rate or x2 pop rate effectively limits both sides, I'm going to go with the one that requires that I keep track of fewer units. :D

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     Post Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:26 pm 
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    A few random items:
    - Why is there a Crown slot instead of a Hat slot? We know all kinds of units wear hats.
    - As written, the Destrier mount ability grants Transport; the Transport ability has several significant disadvantages over normal riding which make it essentially unsuitable for combat and make units which possess it less effective than otherwise ("This unit cannot dodge" comes to mind). Is this intentional? Also, as written a mount with the Destrier can carry one unit using its Mount special and another unit with its Transport(1) special, simultaneously. Is this intentional?
    - If it's made clear somewhere in this muddle exactly what units can gain XP and which cannot, I can't find it. Presumably this keys off type specials, but the special descriptions don't really cover XP.
    - The Leadership ability has some kind of type prerequisite, doesn't it? Military, maybe? Otherwise, you can give it to constructs and beasts and such.

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     Post Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:44 pm 
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    Exate wrote:
    A few random items:
    - Why is there a Crown slot instead of a Hat slot? We know all kinds of units wear hats.
    - As written, the Destrier mount ability grants Transport; the Transport ability has several significant disadvantages over normal riding which make it essentially unsuitable for combat and make units which possess it less effective than otherwise ("This unit cannot dodge" comes to mind). Is this intentional? Also, as written a mount with the Destrier can carry one unit using its Mount special and another unit with its Transport(1) special, simultaneously. Is this intentional?
    - If it's made clear somewhere in this muddle exactly what units can gain XP and which cannot, I can't find it. Presumably this keys off type specials, but the special descriptions don't really cover XP.
    - The Leadership ability has some kind of type prerequisite, doesn't it? Military, maybe? Otherwise, you can give it to constructs and beasts and such.
    Crowns vs. Hats was just copied directly from the previous rule set. I'll update it.
    Good point on Transport. I'll change Destrier to simply allow the Mount to carry a heavy unit.
    Constructs, Uncroaked, and Inhuman units don't gain XP. I'll update the specials to indicate as such. (I know that uncroaked CAN level in the comic, but I suspect the PCs would revolt over being forced to share XP with the skeletons...)
    I'll add Military as a requirement to Leadership.

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     Post Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:09 pm 
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    Um... arn't archions inhuman? they level a lot...

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     Post Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:19 pm 
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    bob the 6th wrote:
    Um... arn't archions inhuman? they level a lot...
    No, neither Archons nor Dark Archons are Inhuman. However, the Balrug should be flagged as Inhuman. I'll add that when I update the Beastiary. Inhuman units are things like the Gumps and Gumptions, the Balrug, and the Brickabats - things that are a bit weird. Anything that looks like a human probably isn't Inhuman, unless Nemo's been playing with it.

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     Post Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:04 pm 
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    Archons are knight class. Therefore human.

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     Post Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:30 pm 
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    WhirdCheese wrote:
    Archons are knight class. Therefore human.

    Um... I think you may be mixing up the comic's rules with those of this forum game. (Although, the latter does attempt to emulate the former.)

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     Post Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:52 am 
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    You know, now may be a good time to figure out how we're handling the mercenaries. I doubt their commission is only their cost of upkeep, so we're going to need to retroactively work that one out (for ease of bookkeeping, we can just waive whatever it would have been prior to turn 10). We'll also need to figure out what they can do with their extra schmuckers... (Perhaps pop equipment and additional units, the way natural allies do? Jillian had to be getting replacement gwiffons from somewhere.)


    Oh, also:
    MarbitChow wrote:
    In large-scale encounters, units that aren't in a Squad will only act to preserve themselves - the events of the battlefield are too complex for them to try to decide what the best course of action is.

    Could we perhaps, before battle, give our units a rally point in case they get unstacked, so that they have somewhere to fall back on? Historically, banners were used for this purpose, (in fact, that was the entire reason for having banners) so could we set something like that up?

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     Post Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:57 am 
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    Equipment
    Rally Banner Unit equipped with a Rally Banner can spend an action to assign a Rally order to all units (stacked and unstacked) on the same side to move towards this unit. Stacks controlled by Command Units can choose to ignore this order.

    Thoughts?

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     Post Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:45 pm 
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    Well, historically it was more of a passive thing. Soldiers whom are are separated from their unit (or who's unit has routed) see the banner, and know they should be making their way towards it if possible. The leadership posted there had the task of regrouping these individual soldiers into effective units: not the easiest task, by far.

    However, I've noticed that most most of the combats we've had are rather close quarters, close enough to be considered melee by any standard. This sort of regroup usually happened at a distance of several hexes, by our scale. So, for now it won't really matter.


    Although... I think we could tweak the system to use the particulars of the game (such as the fact the battle map always has an edge) to our advantage. I'm certain we'd be able to make something better than the current system (not that the current system's bad; it just could be better). But I'll need to understand better how you want the game to "feel" to make a suggestion.

    Since this also ties in with my ideas for some of the schools of magic, (especially Thinkamancy) I suggest we move this discussion to the "Hypothetical Rules" thread I made.

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     Post Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:50 pm 
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    It might help if I mentioned that battle maps in the future won't take place at hex borders any more. There will be a reference square that is the center of the map, which is coordinate (0, 0), and the map expands out in all directions from there.

    But mostly I want it to require an action so that it's a triggered event, which means that I'll remember to do it when the players require it, rather than having to try to scan for units that might move each time.

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     Post Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:52 pm 
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    Hm, so how big is a hex, approximately? It'll have to be pretty large for the maneuvering I'm thinking of.

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     Post Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:55 pm 
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    Also, about the banner... Perhaps instead of attracting units, it allows units within a certain radius to form squads for free? (In the current system, at least...)


    MarbitChow wrote:
    But mostly I want it to require an action so that it's a triggered event, which means that I'll remember to do it when the players require it, rather than having to try to scan for units that might move each time.

    Well, you wouldn't have to scan for units. Just know which direction the banner is in when you determine what each unit's doing.

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