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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 95
 Post Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:09 am 
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I don't think we know when Jetstone's turn lies, since we've never seen them not allied.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 95
     Post Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:54 am 
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    IIRC, Jetstone was always either after GK, or their natural turn order is unknown because they've always been allied. So yes, THAT would be a plausible tactic.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 95
     Post Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:44 am 
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    LTDave wrote:
    Ok, new issue for me.
    IF this happens after Parson enters the portal, then Parson is in the old city, and can't get back via the portal - o noes, he is twapped.
    Except that GK has their turn next. Unless Charlie is standing by with an Armada of Archons and has the turn, Parson can just get on a dwagon and fly out of dodge before Jetstone takes their next turn. And GK can set up a relay, and fly him all the way home if they want.

    Even weirder... if you assume that Parson intends to stick around until the city falls then he would be stuck there anyway. This means Charlie's plan has to bank on JS never losing the city in the first place, which, to me, suggests that his plan can't just be to archon-swarm on his next turn, as all city engagements should be resolved by then.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 95
     Post Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:50 am 
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    effataigus wrote:
    LTDave wrote:
    Ok, new issue for me.
    IF this happens after Parson enters the portal, then Parson is in the old city, and can't get back via the portal - o noes, he is twapped.
    Except that GK has their turn next. Unless Charlie is standing by with an Armada of Archons and has the turn, Parson can just get on a dwagon and fly out of dodge before Jetstone takes their next turn. And GK can set up a relay, and fly him all the way home if they want.

    Even weirder... if you assume that Parson intends to stick around until the city falls then he would be stuck there anyway. This means Charlie's plan has to bank on JS never losing the city in the first place, which, to me, suggests that his plan can't just be to archon-swarm on his next turn, as all city engagements should be resolved by then.

    But Charlescomm could contract out a swarm of Archons for a steeply discounted price for this one engagement, which would put their turn order with Jetstone's.

    Then if he wanted to save face, he can have the Archons raze Jetstone after they save it, and blame it all on Hamster. No witnesses.

    Aside from Don's bat. That'd be a completely different story arc.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 95
     Post Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:02 am 
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    bladestorm wrote:
    effataigus wrote:
    LTDave wrote:
    Ok, new issue for me.
    IF this happens after Parson enters the portal, then Parson is in the old city, and can't get back via the portal - o noes, he is twapped.
    Except that GK has their turn next. Unless Charlie is standing by with an Armada of Archons and has the turn, Parson can just get on a dwagon and fly out of dodge before Jetstone takes their next turn. And GK can set up a relay, and fly him all the way home if they want.

    Even weirder... if you assume that Parson intends to stick around until the city falls then he would be stuck there anyway. This means Charlie's plan has to bank on JS never losing the city in the first place, which, to me, suggests that his plan can't just be to archon-swarm on his next turn, as all city engagements should be resolved by then.

    But Charlescomm could contract out a swarm of Archons for a steeply discounted price for this one engagement, which would put their turn order with Jetstone's.

    I think you might be mistaken about the implications of them doing this... recall the last time Charlescomm allied with the RCCI mid-way through their turn it put the archons on the RCCI's turn, but they didn't get their movement - which had been set to 0 at the end of Charlie's turn - refreshed. Hence I'm thinking any archons that allied now would be stuck out wherever they are currently.

    Now, it might be possible to juggle some turn orders in a fashion discussed by others here in such a way as to allow Charlescomm to move units into the garrison before the turn ends, but there would be a lot of yet-to-be-revealed rules and turn orders that would need to be just so for that to work. The most sensible reading of this update:
    http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F093.jpg
    To my mind is that either you share a turn with the last side to go that you're allied with, or that alliances are hierarchical, and that you go on the turn of whichever side is primary. If the former, then I don't see how Charlescomm could get a new turn before dawn, as they go first and the RCCII would already be on the last turn of that group. If the latter, then, as long as there is a side in the coalition with a later turn than the turn that they are currently on, then that side could break alliance with the RCCII and Charlescomm could ally with them. For this to work, it would also have to be true that units' movements be refreshed at the start of a turn rather than at dawn. For game balance, I'm guessing this isn't the case, as this would be highly exploitable in a large alliance... but perhaps.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 95
     Post Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:11 pm 
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    LTDave wrote:
    Unless Charlie is standing by with an Armada of Archons and has the turn, Parson can just get on a dwagon and fly out of dodge before Jetstone takes their next turn. And GK can set up a relay, and fly him all the way home if they want.
    A very astute point. Unless Charlie has significant forces in the battlespace, its rather pointless for them to trap Parson. Luckily for Charlie, he has significant forces in the battlespace.

    Quote:
    {I really don't understand why Parson wants to go through the Portal. They've taken the City off-turn, killed the King, and are on the verge of capturing the garrison and all the enemy units in the city. What more does he hope to achieve? Why does he still want to go through? Why did he want to go through in the first place? It does not make sense.}

    Because he's being emotional instead of rational. He should have been paying attention to the events on the ground. The whole airforce was wiped out before the search for survivors started. That should have been started way sooner, Cubbins probably would have been found and croaked. Wanda should have been given orders to stay at the portal decrypting corpses brought to her with orders to retreat ONLY if things became hot were she was.

    Without orders or direction they croaked the king and very nearly captured the city. (And probably still will.) They never needed Parson's chief warlord bonus. A decrypted Artemis would have been worth as much as Parson's piddly help. (8 to Sylvia's 7.) Which they lack because Parson didn't bother to keep order.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 95
     Post Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:12 pm 
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    effataigus wrote:
    I think you might be mistaken about the implications of them doing this... recall the last time Charlescomm allied with the RCCI mid-way through their turn it put the archons on the RCCI's turn, but they didn't get their movement - which had been set to 0 at the end of Charlie's turn - refreshed. Hence I'm thinking any archons that allied now would be stuck out wherever they are currently.

    Now, it might be possible to juggle some turn orders in a fashion discussed by others here in such a way as to allow Charlescomm to move units into the garrison before the turn ends, but there would be a lot of yet-to-be-revealed rules and turn orders that would need to be just so for that to work. The most sensible reading of this update:
    http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F093.jpg
    To my mind is that either you share a turn with the last side to go that you're allied with, or that alliances are hierarchical, and that you go on the turn of whichever side is primary. If the former, then I don't see how Charlescomm could get a new turn before dawn, as they go first and the RCCII would already be on the last turn of that group. If the latter, then, as long as there is a side in the coalition with a later turn than the turn that they are currently on, then that side could break alliance with the RCCII and Charlescomm could ally with them. For this to work, it would also have to be true that units' movements be refreshed at the start of a turn rather than at dawn. For game balance, I'm guessing this isn't the case, as this would be highly exploitable in a large alliance... but perhaps.

    The Archons could still move to Jetstone. They are outside of the conflict, so 'turn' really doesn't affect when they can move unless Charlescomm has officially "ended turn". Charlie has Archons in the area. This conflict is too hot for him not to. All he needs is enough move left for them to get to Jetstone, then get hired on. If for some reason they can only assist and not engage, they can still add shockmancy, foolamancy, leadership, dancefighting, and a host of other options (if you know what to ask for). In book 1, Charlescomm ended turn on page 105, yet his Archons were still able to assist Ansom in the Garrison on page 121. Once they were hired, they could no longer cross zones. Until then, they weren't considered 'technically' adversarial to GK and could drift between zones. Complete rules hack.

    Turn order only really comes into play when two or more Sides have activity that can conflict with one another, since Turn Order determines who gets to go first in such an occasion. Without a conflict of activity, your Turn always starts at dawn, and when your Side Ends Turn, it becomes night. Until you end turn, and it is night, but then someone enters your battlespace and the sun pops back up into the sky.

    So far, Charlescomm has not officially allied himself with a side in this conflict, so his Turn is completely independent to how time is progressing in this battle.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 95
     Post Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:17 pm 
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    That makes 'vulturing' viable for an unscrupulous side - much like gleaners or wreckers. Keep aloof, take no sides, and be prepared to jump in when things look right . . .

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 95
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:48 am 
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    bladestorm wrote:
    Once they were hired, they could no longer cross zones. Until then, they weren't considered 'technically' adversarial to GK and could drift between zones.


    I see no evidence for this assertion.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 95
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:00 am 
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    bladestorm wrote:
    So far, Charlescomm has not officially allied himself with a side in this conflict, so his Turn is completely independent to how time is progressing in this battle.
    Nay... turn order is decided by what WILL happen, not by what people have decided to do at any given moment. If Charlie were to do decide to do anything of the manner you are suggesting, fate would know about it in advance and have waited for him to end turn before presenting Charlie with the information that leads to him deciding to do something. Circular? Definitely... but that's how we know it works!
    http://www.erfworld.com/2012/10/inner-p ... isode-049/

    Which is to say that if Charlie's turn hasn't ended, then he won't get involved. If his turn has ended, then he can't get involved without doing something truly bizarre.

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    Last edited by effataigus on Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:31 am, edited 239044 times in total.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 95
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:45 am 
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    effataigus wrote:

    Which is to say that if Charlie's turn hasn't ended, then he won't get involved. If his turn has ended, then he can't get involved without doing something truly bizarre.

    If his turn hasn't ended he won't engage/fight. He can still get involved in a variety of ways. DDR2: Electric Bologna anyone?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 95
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:52 am 
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    Lamech wrote:
    effataigus wrote:

    Which is to say that if Charlie's turn hasn't ended, then he won't get involved. If his turn has ended, then he can't get involved without doing something truly bizarre.

    If his turn hasn't ended he won't engage/fight. He can still get involved in a variety of ways. DDR2: Electric Bologna anyone?

    I have my doubts. Just talking to Haffaton was enough to rearrange turn here:

    http://www.erfworld.com/2012/03/inner-p ... isode-027/

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 95
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:17 am 
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    Lamech wrote:
    LTDave wrote:
    Unless Charlie is standing by with an Armada of Archons and has the turn, Parson can just get on a dwagon and fly out of dodge before Jetstone takes their next turn. And GK can set up a relay, and fly him all the way home if they want.
    A very astute point. Unless Charlie has significant forces in the battlespace, its rather pointless for them to trap Parson. Luckily for Charlie, he has significant forces in the battlespace.


    More importantly, Parson is a Heavy. He can climb aboard a drogon but the dragon will not be able to move. He *will* be trapped unless he retreats through the portal before the city falls.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 95
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:35 am 
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    Parson originally was just planning to go in with his casters, hunker down, and have Wanda decrypt all of Jetstone into his new army. But if he doesn't go in with Wanda -- which appears to be the new plan -- he has to get Wanda and his other casters back into GK and then hightail it on the fastest dwagons available back to Jetstone (or convince Stanley somehow to change GK's capital site to Jetstone while the casters are in the MK, which seems unlikely).

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 95
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:03 pm 
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    noname_hero wrote:
    More importantly, Parson is a Heavy. He can climb aboard a drogon but the dragon will not be able to move. He *will* be trapped unless he retreats through the portal before the city falls.


    I wonder what a dragon's move while walking is like.

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