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 Post Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:36 am 
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malaki wrote:

If you follow this concept, so we can hypotize that the "courtain" between "Kansas" and Erfworld are not so strong compared to that with Stupidworld Earth, and so it needs a lower magic force to trigger and collect people from that world... so no need for multiple tri-mancers "perfect warlord" spell, and so it don't need to be a super warlord for Judy...


I don't think you need to even hypothesize that far. The perfect warlord was a powerful spell because it scoured every possible universe for a perfect warlord which fulfilled multiple prophecies, it wasn't just a spell to bring someone from Earth to Erf. There is really no reason to believe that people occasionally wind up in Erfworld from Earth by multiple means and isn't something unique to Kansas. Also, a connection between the worlds would also help explain why Erfworld culture is so familiar to Earth instead of it just being random chance.

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     Post Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:42 am 
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    Glome wrote:
    I don't think you need to even hypothesize that far. The perfect warlord was a powerful spell because it scoured every possible universe for a perfect warlord which fulfilled multiple prophecies, it wasn't just a spell to bring someone from Earth to Erf.


    Also, Stanley was changing the parameters on the fly, scrambling any built-in targeting that may have been built into the spell.

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    Also, a connection between the worlds would also help explain why Erfworld culture is so familiar to Earth instead of it just being random chance.


    True.

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     Post Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:32 am 
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    All I find myself wondering about now is how Olive dies.

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     Post Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:35 am 
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    I just thought of something: The jester Jillian sees in her mind - it looks nothing like Jack Snipe, and she laughs instead of doing as it says.

    Initially, I thought it was a picture of Jillian's instincts: "The enemy leader! Kill kill kill!", and the reason they looked so ridiculous was because of the flower drug.

    But there's another possibility: Maybe Olive or Wanda got information about Jack from Jill when she was spaced out. Then they might know they were pretty close, and that Jack was a foolamancer, but not how he looked. Perhaps someone did that, and planted an amateurish thinkamancy suggestion (from "Jack") to kill Judy. The suggestion fails because they missed so terribly on Jack's appearance and temperament.

    I theorized before that Olive or Wanda actually put Jillian close to Judy in order to finally get her out of the way.

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     Post Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:46 am 
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    There is another possibility, unlikely perhaps, regarding the use of the word 'kill' by other characters other than Parson: it's possible that the word used to be common in Erf but some agent or event influenced a mass shift to 'croaked' and only Erflings whose lives have spanned enough turns to pre-date the shift still sometimes say 'kill'.

    Again, I don't know that this explanation is likely, nor do I have any particular guess as to who or what could have been behind such a shift, unless perhaps it was also connected to Olive, but if, as seems not unreasonable, Charlie was the ruler of the el-Efbaum and the once mightiest side on Erf, and he was defeated by Judy's Haffaton, then both Charlie and Judy could reasonably presume to have been around for quite some time before any of the events of this prequel.

    *Edited just to laugh at the fact that I noticed my second paragraph is comprised of one 80+ word sentence. :P

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     Post Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:57 am 
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    vintermann wrote:
    I just thought of something: The jester Jillian sees in her mind - it looks nothing like Jack Snipe, and she laughs instead of doing as it says.


    Perhaps his name is Punch. Poor Judy.

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     Post Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:26 am 
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    Nnelg wrote:
    0beron called it! :lol:
    0beron wrote:
    The Wizard is Charlie!
    But somehow I didn't expect it to be true this literally...

    THIS THIS! Awesome, I think that's the first time I've actually called a major plot point, I'm just gonna go do a happy dance now.

    Seriously though, definitely a lot to mull over in this update...Judy's reference suggests that she could be from Stupidworld (her similarity to Dorthy and her use of "kill") and following the references it would also suggest that Charlie is not an Erfling either.
    I however do thing this suggests more strongly that Charlie IS a Caster...but not a Thinkamancer as we previously suspected. A thinkamancer works by manipulating the mind and working in ways you don't realize...thus it wouldn't make sense for Judy to KNOW he was personally powerful with magic. Given that, and the references he is based on.....
    Shai_halud wrote:
    OH GOD. Charlies a carny...
    It makes perfect sense. This fits the Wizard reference, it is a school of magic that would be flashy and obvious to someone who is not a caster, AND could also settle the Kingworld link issue (I have speculated that given what the spell did, Carnymancy would be required, suggesting JoJo was in the link as well...but this wouldn't be necessary if Charlie is a Carny himself by trade)

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    Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
    There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.

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     Post Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:37 am 
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    Sharik wrote:
    6. Who are or were the tin man, lion, and scarecrow?


    Jillian is the scarecrow for she has no brain...

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     Post Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:05 am 
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    :-) wrote:
    Sharik wrote:
    6. Who are or were the tin man, lion, and scarecrow?


    Jillian is the scarecrow for she has no brain...


    Wanda could be the tin man with no heart?

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     Post Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:19 am 
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    I already expressed thoughts that Charlie could be a Carnimancer. The Wizard references reinforce that, and that he was relying upon the Arkendish for the unmatched Thinkamancy as a distraction from his real powers. A new thought comes to me. What if the Arkendish isn't an arkentool? What if it is all a ruse, and no side dares go against Charlescomm because they believe he has a powerful Arkentool that allows him to pop Archon and master Thinkamancy? And if the Arkentools were used by the Titans to build Erfworld, what did they use the Dish for? Pliers and Hammer can be used to build things, but a satellite dish?

    Archons are capable of popping in any city, but the odds of them popping are very rare. Charlie could have ceased production of every other unit type aside from Archon, so that his only option for popping a unit at any given time is a choice of Archon, Archon, or Archon (opposed to hobgobwin, gobwin, twoll, infantry stabber, piker, dwagon, spidew, or archer). The Dish itself is just a prop that has some carnymancy spells triggered onto it to make it seem like something special, when it is really just a cardboard cutout and always only ever seen at a distance. The thinkamancy could be a network of Archons combined with a thinkamancer/thinkamancer/thinkamancer trilink. Charlie using three master class thinkamancers (especially f they were very important thinkamancers) to make a very dangerous link may be more cause for concern among tGMtTA than Charlie knowing a few of their techniques and horning in on their territory.

    Which bring up part of why Isaac would also invest heavily into other disciplines and make all of his playground toys. Three master Thinkamancers went missing, both physically and from the gstrings, so he made all of his stuff so that he could track them down.

    Also, for the summon perfect warlord spell, the parameters could be set different on each summoning. When Judy got summoned, they may have specified that they wanted someone who could croak the wicked witches and defeat the wizard. Just like when Parson was summoned, he was NOT what Stanley had envisioned. He met all of the criteria, but not what he envisioned at ALL. Eventually, Stanley got Ansom, made him CWL, and Parson was basically imprisoned in the Tower of Effdup and made to do daily rounds. Judy, through raw bumbling, killed the witches and 'defeated' the wizard. Just because the summoners didn't get what they wanted, that doesn't mean they didn't get what they asked for.

    Being that this update is hitting right before the weekend, I'll probably return to it to chew through it some more. It actually makes for much better timing for me, especially since it was so dense with references a speculation points. Though the expression on Jillian's face is not helping me to fully wake up any faster...

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     Post Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:35 am 
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    I just want to correct you on a few things Blade. Certain other cities can pop archons, predictably, but they pop at a slower rate. There's no random rare chance involved. Charlescom very likely still CAN pop other units in it's city, but just chooses not to because Archons are Charlie's strategy.

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     Post Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:45 am 
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    vintermann wrote:
    Initially, I thought it was a picture of Jillian's instincts: "The enemy leader! Kill kill kill!", and the reason they looked so ridiculous was because of the flower drug.

    But there's another possibility: Maybe Olive or Wanda got information about Jack from Jill when she was spaced out. Then they might know they were pretty close, and that Jack was a foolamancer, but not how he looked. Perhaps someone did that, and planted an amateurish thinkamancy suggestion (from "Jack") to kill Judy. The suggestion fails because they missed so terribly on Jack's appearance and temperament.


    I think that it is much more likely that a very angry Charlie, who now has the arkendish (likely somewhat recently, as i dont think he is masking his appearance like he does later), is trying to get Jillian to croak the person who cost him his kingdom. (Also, since there is already discussion here about the use of the word kill, i want to clarify that the 'jester' does not use that word.)

    Yes, I believe this is a description of Charlie:
    "He was fat, clumsy, and angry. He had a bald head, and jowls that shook when he yelled."

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     Post Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:46 am 
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    I'm pretty sure the Arkendish is legitimate. Charlie ran a link at a distance and could perform command and control for all of his Archons while being a telecomm giant and can hack eyebooks even though Maggie believed them to be secure. That's out of the bounds of normal Thinkamancy, though I guess he could have a three-Thinkamancer link. Though it might not be an Arkentool at all, but instead a relative of the Mathamancy bracelet.

    I'm kind of surprised a much smaller Haffaton took out a powerful side run by Charlie. He seemed to really understand the importance of magic to warfare, and Haffaton seems to be all about taking advantage of sides not getting that. Then again, this whole business might be why Charlie understands that. Also, he apparently is willing to hire out to Haffaton even though they forced him out of a city. But we only have an Archon's word for that.


    Last edited by (name here) on Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:52 am 
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    Couple other gems in this one. "Efbaum", in addition to being L.F. Baum, could also be f-bomb. Judy wearing an tracking bracelet on her ankle, like a common convict.

    Still can't figure out why Olive would stick Jillian in the same room with her overmistress. Yeah, ok, counting on the hippiemancy to prevent a regicide, but still, if there's no heir, or the heir isn't firmly under Olive's thumb, that's a terrible risk to take. And clearly Olive has no desire to rule outright herself, or she'd have taken the throne ages ago. Which itself strikes me as weird. Unlike in Stupidworld, where the guy in charge could be a powerless figurehead, Erf rulers actually get root access to their respective domains. Being the power behind the throne just wouldn't be the same. On that same note, she must have some way to keep Judy from disbanding her with a thought.

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     Post Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:00 am 
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    The dish has been seen, and was rendered in 3D. I don't buy its not being an arkentool. Want to bet on it? I'll offer 5:1 odds...

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     Post Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:04 am 
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    I remember seeing the Wicked Witch of the West in the background of the Magic Kingdom. I don't think she had a broom. Did she leave the Emerald City with the fall of the Wizard or Haffiton with its fall?

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     Post Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:28 am 
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    vintermann wrote:
    1. If Judy is from Stupidworld, she was not summoned by a perfect warlord spell. Because, to paraphrase Hamstard, if you think Judy Garland is the perfect warlord you have issues.


    Could she be the perfect stagemancer?

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     Post Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:29 am 
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    Hmmm . . . it would seem the Emerald City has become the Ephemeral city . . .

    Another possibility - consider Heinlein's concept in his later works that a sufficiently believed in mythos becomes real . . . and enough people believed in Oz that it became real enough to be accessible to Erf. That perhaps Stupidworld is simply another mythical world (a la the Matrix) that we believe is real because other's belief has made manifest . . . If Erfworld is a nexus created by the Titans where the different mythical worlds (all real and valid within their own subjective frames) are accessible, then there will be all kinds of referential bleedover. If each is at a different angle on the time axis, then it would be possible to have current references or even future references that we wouldn't understand (yet) that are simply part of the accepted reality of Erf with no special significance or meaning to the natives. Though outsiders would wonder about it, as did Parson. (Saline the Fourth . . ? As in Saline IV . . ? Which made him pinch himself)

    If that's the case, then we can expect all kinds of literary allusions from various sources, things that Rob seems to especially delight in. And we have an explanation as to why this would be so . . .

    Also, has anyone considered that both the Wizard and Judy were not summoned, but were blown here through some Titanically mandated Deus ex Macguffin?

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     Post Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:02 pm 
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    Man, Charlie went Turbo on us.

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     Post Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:37 pm 
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    "revealing the Wizard to be an ordinary old man who had journeyed to Oz from Omaha long ago in a hot air balloon. The Wizard has been longing to return to his home and be in a circus again ever since"

    per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wonderful_Wizard_of_Oz

    So as others have been saying: Charlie = Wizard = Carnymancer = from Stupidworld

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