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 Post subject: Map Coordinates
 Post Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 11:35 pm 
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http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F010.jpg

Going back to this old strip, I noticed the coordinates in Jillian's note again, and realized they weren't really discussed in any forum posts at the time. And if they have been mentioned since, that is not coming up in the GitP search.

Those seem to be coordinates for the hex Jillian is in, on a standard X-Y grid. This implies a number of things:

* It's possible to determine which specific hex you are in. This raises the question of how. Jillian's obviously not particularly educated, and I doubt she has enough of a head for math and numbers to derive her position based on direction and movement from an official record kept by Ansom's scribes, so that can't be it. Maybe it's part of "warlord vision," or maybe it's an innate sense all erfers (or warlords) have, or maybe it's scribed in the stars above each hex, or maybe something else is going on, but it's clearly possible to determine this fact without magic. (I bet Parson can't, though.)

* The world is flat. Those coordinates are integers, not degree coordinates like you'd see in a longitudinal system. Though there is the possibility that it could be shorthand mapping to degree coordinates, Occam's razor would suggest not.

* There is a center of the world (hex 0,0). What do you want to bet something awfully special is in that hex? That there is a center hex also implies that the world is finite, and is not an infinite plane like AD&D's outer planes, because there can be no objective center point in an infinite plane - only a subjective center as defined from a point of interest by a given civilization.

It's the sort of thing that strikes me as a very well hidden Chekhov's Gun. :)

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     Post subject: Re: Map Coordinates
     Post Posted: Sat May 02, 2009 3:13 am 
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    Quote:
    - only a subjective center as defined from a point of interest by a given civilization.

    isnt this also a possibility. just because one side uses the one set of coordinate systems, does not mean another side must use the same system.

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     Post subject: Re: Map Coordinates
     Post Posted: Sat May 02, 2009 3:31 am 
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    konmanrocks wrote:
    Quote:
    - only a subjective center as defined from a point of interest by a given civilization.

    isnt this also a possibility. just because one side uses the one set of coordinate systems, does not mean another side must use the same system.


    A key point here is that it wasn't Vinnie or someone else relaying coordinates, it was Jillian. She can't even spell and she's a barbarian to boot. How would she relate to an arbitrary coordinate system of some other culture and keep the hex numbers straight in her head?

    Now, it might be possible that everyone everywhere agrees to the same arbitrary coordinates, with 0,0 being at some important treaty city or the like. But there's still the first point where Jillian can determine her precise coordinates in the world somehow. If she can do that, and presumably other people can do that, and this is a world where hexes and hex barriers are actual laws of nature, it's likely that erflings would just accept the information fed to them by their coordinate sense and not try to put some cultural spin on it.

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     Post subject: Re: Map Coordinates
     Post Posted: Sat May 02, 2009 10:40 am 
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    Fuzzypaws wrote:
    A key point here is that it wasn't Vinnie or someone else relaying coordinates, it was Jillian. She can't even spell and she's a barbarian to boot. How would she relate to an arbitrary coordinate system of some other culture and keep the hex numbers straight in her head?

    Now, it might be possible that everyone everywhere agrees to the same arbitrary coordinates, with 0,0 being at some important treaty city or the like. But there's still the first point where Jillian can determine her precise coordinates in the world somehow. If she can do that, and presumably other people can do that, and this is a world where hexes and hex barriers are actual laws of nature, it's likely that erflings would just accept the information fed to them by their coordinate sense and not try to put some cultural spin on it.


    I think the way the note was written was just abbreviations, not inability to spell -- she was popped as a royal heir, with all the basic knowledge expected for that role, after all.

    Another thought that occurs to me is that Erfworlders might never have occasion to write anything other than this sort of situation report (the books in the libraries pop as part of city creation). It's another way where the more you think about it, the darker Erfworld is in a lot of ways. So maybe that sort of telegraphic Language is how they normally write.

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     Post subject: Re: Map Coordinates
     Post Posted: Sat May 02, 2009 10:54 am 
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    Fuzzypaws wrote:
    * It's possible to determine which specific hex you are in.


    I think this is likely a native ability, or at least one that Warlords have.

    If it is a learned skill, then it seems reasonable that Warlords would learn it due to its combat value.

    Quote:
    * The world is flat. Those coordinates are integers, not degree coordinates like you'd see in a longitudinal system. Though there is the possibility that it could be shorthand mapping to degree coordinates, Occam's razor would suggest not.


    I think it is likely a flat world, like a boardgame. Also, even if the world is supposed to model a sphere, it could work like Civilisation, where it is rectangular and the left and right boundaries are joined together and there is a 'wall' for the North and South boundaries.

    The (0,0) point would be mid-way between the 2 North and South edges of the map. The 0 East/West point would be midway between the 2 left and right edges. However, it is possible that the would be none in the world

    Quote:
    It's the sort of thing that strikes me as a very well hidden Chekhov's Gun. :)


    A (0,0) point is pretty much automatically required if they are doing coordinates.

    Btw, the coordinate given by Jillian is (-1214,499) and the grid appears to be aligned (see here) so that the East West hexes are all in a line.

    There are a few possible ways to convert those into x,y coords.

    For example, you could have

    Option 1:
    Code:
    Row -2: (-4,-2)   (-2,-2)   ( 0,-2)   ( 2,-2)   ( 4,-2)

    Row -1:      (-3,-1)   (-1,-1)   ( 1,-1)    ( 3,-1)
     
    Row  0: (-4, 0)   (-2, 0)   ( 0, 0)   ( 2, 0)   ( 4, 0)

    Row  1:      (-3, 1)   (-1, 1)   ( 1, 1)    ( 3,-1)

    Row  2: (-4, 2)   (-2, 2)   ( 0, 2)   ( 2, 2)   ( 4, 2)


    Option 2:
    Code:
    Row -2: (-2,-2)   (-1,-2)   ( 0,-2)   ( 1,-2)   ( 2,-2)

    Row -1:      (-2,-1)   (-1,-1)   ( 0,-1)    ( 1,-1)
     
    Row  0: (-2, 0)   (-1, 0)   ( 0, 0)   ( 1, 0)   ( 2, 0)

    Row  1:      (-2, 1)   (-1, 1)   ( 0, 1)    ( 1,-1)

    Row  2: (-2, 2)   (-1, 2)   ( 0, 2)   ( 1, 2)   ( 2, 2)


    Code:
    Row -2: (-3,-2)   (-2,-2)   (-1,-2)   ( 0,-2)   ( 1,-2)

    Row -1:      (-2,-1)   (-1,-1)   ( 0,-1)    ( 1,-1)
     
    Row  0: (-2, 0)   (-1, 0)   ( 0, 0)   ( 1, 0)   ( 2, 0)

    Row  1:      (-1, 1)   ( 0, 1)   ( 1, 1)    ( 2,-1)

    Row  2: (-1, 2)   ( 0, 2)   ( 1, 2)   ( 2, 2)   ( 3, 2)


    Option 1 requires that either both coords are even or both or odd. Jillians is a mix of the 2, so either there is no (0,0) coordinate or it isn't option 1 :).


    Last edited by raphfrk on Mon Sep 28, 2009 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Map Coordinates
     Post Posted: Sun May 03, 2009 6:43 pm 
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    Ya know it would have been alot easier just to say http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartesian_coordinate which has a nice pretty picture of what your describing, been around since about the 1600's and it is totally obsolete due to the 4th dimensional laws that are common place now.

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     Post subject: Re: Map Coordinates
     Post Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 1:38 pm 
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    kreszantas wrote:
    Ya know it would have been alot easier just to say http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartesian_coordinate which has a nice pretty picture of what your describing, been around since about the 1600's and it is totally obsolete due to the 4th dimensional laws that are common place now.


    The coordinate system has to work for a hex grid, but that's not all that difficult -- one coordinate can identify a row/column of hexes, the other can identify a specific hex in the row/column (like the second and third options in raphfrk's post).

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     Post subject: Re: Map Coordinates
     Post Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 3:31 pm 
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    4th dimensional law pretty much describes this case: "Space between the base and the ordinate is to be parallel to the quadrant on which it is contained in" so you count would actually divide down the middle of the hex. /_\ method where the _ extension equates to the base or ordinate on which it falls so in reality it goes 0, 1.5, 3, 4.5, 6 and so forth not absolute whole numbers as stated within the sited example. It was merely to give a graphical image of what he was trying to describe.

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     Post subject: Re: Map Coordinates
     Post Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:03 pm 
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    let's make everyone talk about this now.

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     Post subject: Re: Map Coordinates
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:29 am 
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    No.

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     Post subject: Re: Map Coordinates
     Post Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 8:21 pm 
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    yes

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     Post subject: Re: Map Coordinates
     Post Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 10:25 am 
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    If you want to get people to talk about it, say something so interesting that we want to respond. You are in no position to give us orders with no incentive. Why would you even THINK that your post would produce the effect you asked for?

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     Post subject: Re: Map Coordinates
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 8:50 pm 
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    Apparently, nobody found anything else interesting to say. If somebody really wants to revive the issue, by all means think of something interesting to say about it; otherwise, thread croakamancy just clutters up the new-message listings.

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