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 Post Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:58 pm 
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Wanda is not a former Heir, she is a former Ruler. Potentially big difference.

Effataigus, Wanda's stack did not vanish because she was the Ruler of Goodminton when the capital (and final city) fell, so she turned barbarian. Much as we know will eventually happen to Jillian as well. We can safely assume that the same thing happened to her after Wanda croaked Banhammer - she became for a brief few minutes the Queen of Faq and probably wondered why she could not sense Wanda amongst the surviving defenders...

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     Post Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:12 pm 
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    And Stanley did take the capital back only with the dwagons (and Sizemore)in his stack, every other field unit disbanded because the capital fell.

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     Post Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:38 pm 
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    Okay, simple answer to a few points that have been raised. All units require upkeep. There are 3 ways this can be accomplished:
    • It is paid by the side's treasury
    • It is paid from a Barbarian commander's Purse (that they are stacked with)
    • Fugitive foraging for food

    Rulers are the only ones that can independently survive the ending of their side (it losing it's capital). This is made explicitly clear (with the exception of casters in the MK). Thus, when a Side falls, the only possible source of upkeep it's units have is their former Ruler. This is why only units stacked with the former ruler survive the disbanding.

    Also, it has been explicitly stated that ANY commander can form a new Side by claiming a Capital Site. Large sides even have a history of doing this. So that is not evidence on the Jillian case (in fact, she even considered changing the name, and she DID drastically change the design)

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     Post Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:18 pm 
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    Being an Heir... if it were unit based (permanent), and the side you were heir to no longer exists, may not be obvious to others. It was not obvious to others than Jillian was royal.

    It is possible that promotions, to warlord, heir, etc change hidden stats, give a unit more "intelligence". A piker only cares about very little it seems. A warlord can think to degree for self. Possible an heir can think for self even more, and if so may not make sense in design to suddenly reverse those abilities. (When Parson promoted himself to field unit, the stairs for example suddenly got easier to climb)


    Last edited by multilis on Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:18 pm 
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    Thoke wrote:
    EDIT: I think Stanley can still disband her at will. I don't think an unit can be a part of a side and not under their ruler's influence.


    I'm not so sure. In Book 1, F23, Panel 7 Wanda says she does not laugh. It was funny at the time but later on she says she is loyal to Fate not Stanley. I think Stanley has no hold over her but she hides it (and the rules make her an exception). Maybe FAQ had no hold over her either. This could be that she still has the status of a ruler of Goodminton or perhaps that she still has undischarged Fate hanging over her.

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     Post Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:19 pm 
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    Hi! Sorry for the lack of quoting I just wanted to touch on a few traces of different things around and it would take too much time to find each of them.

    1) Fate fighting Parson.
    If fate is sentient I imagine this would not happen. I see fate as being practically chained to what is written. If it was penned that fate would roll over and die fate would roll over and die. Granted if Parson is outside of fate even though his being summoned was inside fate then this might rattle things as much as fate might be rattled by seeing an equally probable second occurrence of reality in the gardens of possibility.
    2) Overlord Firebaugh
    I really really got the impression that he went down fighting. Fighting F&Q fighting haffaton and fighting fate. I think Wanda lit his fire brighter than it had ever been. I really hope that when things are revealed we see the end of Goodmitten as I imagine it is worthy of story.
    3)Delphi
    Yeah she's not a people person and she's unlikeable. But everyone is judging her for not understanding other people. Predictamancers are what they are. But imagine poor Cassandra seeing the darker possibilities and being ignored. Almost every side on Erfworlds fate is "Is destroyed." Knowing that no matter how things go you see the future and it says "Your friends die." The entire history of Erfworld is sides being worn away by the constant motion of warfare. In the end Delphi who is a strict adherent to fate wasn't in the magic kingdom, she was in the tower, dying for Goodmitten. Maybe O.F. wouldn't let her leave. Maybe, she had hope. Maybe she choice to defy her own fate. Also was there any explicit mention that she actually died? Or might our Oracle still be around?

    Also I don't think Jillian believes the message is a trap, that would be insane. She's willing to eat the food but to believe the message a trap she'd have to believe A) Evil Predictamancer put it their knowing that this one escapee would be so important as to warrant a specific individual trap that couldn't just be a kill trap or a sleep poison trap. or B) They have a foolamancer who designed this trap with foolamantic writing that shows the reader's name and several possible variations for effect. Really? Jillian can't be that insane.

    4)FAQ/F&Q
    FAQ has an awful lot of casters for one side. I know this is partially explained by the pop mechanics for casters. But just saying it's odd. We know FAQ abhors killing to an extent strange for Erfers, maybe they saw something good and noble. Maybe they saw something that made them believe killing was wrong. (That is to say they're now a bubble side, they were not always people knew of Banhammer. Which means they were probably in a different location or people would have known where to find them. They were probably in at least 1 battle given the nature of erfworld. They needed their 3 caster combo to get things going hidden.)


    Thoke wrote:
    And Stanley did take the capital back only with the dwagons (and Sizemore)in his stack, every other field unit disbanded because the capital fell.


    Do we know for a fact Sizemore was with him? He's so peaceful. I always thought he just changed sides. If he did fight alongside Stanley that creates soooo many questions.

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     Post Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:47 pm 
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    0beron wrote:
    Heirship is a function of the Side, not the Unit. Wanda is a GK unit so she will be treated as such and obey the relevant mechanics. We have a close precedent with the Hobgobwins. When they croaked, they lost tribal affiliation and once they Decrypted counted as GK units. Because you are Heir to a specific side it should function the same.
    If any of the alternatives you suggested were possible, the Erflings would know it.
    Being part of a tribe is being on a side. My assumption would be that all the special abilities of the natural sides are tied to the side, not any of the units.

    0beron wrote:
    Okay, simple answer to a few points that have been raised. All units require upkeep. There are 3 ways this can be accomplished:

    It is paid by the side's treasury
    It is paid from a Barbarian commander's Purse (that they are stacked with)
    Fugitive foraging for food
    There is no reason to believe that foraging for food is unique to fugitives. Indeed we know that units that are part of a capital side can forage, and that natural sides can support themselves by such methods. (Farming). Presumably all units can forage and fill their whole upkeep by finding food. Otherwise we have three different foraging rules instead of one. Oh and you also missed gems.

    I think the simpler rule would be: Upkeep must be paid each turn, and it can be paid by a number of methods:

    1) Treasury
    2) From a purse
    3) Food
    4) Gems

    0beron wrote:
    Also, it has been explicitly stated that ANY commander can form a new Side by claiming a Capital Site. Large sides even have a history of doing this. So that is not evidence on the Jillian case (in fact, she even considered changing the name, and she DID drastically change the design)
    Where? We know that sides (or maybe just some sides) can spin off smaller sides. But we don't know of the requirements as far as I remember.

    What I suspect the rule is that there is some hidden flag for heir and ruler (or maybe just one for both) which you need to run a side.

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     Post Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:23 pm 
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    bladestorm wrote:
    Or a different scenario... a what-if perhaps. When Jillian went barbarian, she had a small retinue with her, and all of those got wiped out by sand witches and man witches. What would have happened if the sole survivor of that battle had been a lowly stabber or piker instead of Jillian? A single unit without leadership stranded in the middle of the desert.

    If he (or she) foraged and hunted enough food to survive, he would auto-attack everything and everyone until losing a fight. Theoretically, someone (especially someone on a megalogwiff) could one day take the trouble to capture him for turning.

    If there were an associated text update, I imagine his thoughts would be rather paranoid and depressing unless and until he was turned.

    By the way, finding a gem wouldn't help him eat because only a Commander can turn a gem into schmuckers, and he's too paranoid (auto-attack) to trade the gem with anyone.

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     Post Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:53 pm 
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    Lamech wrote:
    Being part of a tribe is being on a side. My assumption would be that all the special abilities of the natural sides are tied to the side, not any of the units.
    Agreed. Having an Heir is an attribute of the Side, so when that Side is gone, you're no longer Heir.

    Lamech wrote:
    [Other people can forage]
    If foraging where totally valid for all units, those that were with Wanda wouldn't have disbanded until they had failed to forage.

    Lamech wrote:
    Where [was it said all commanders start a new Side]?
    It's been referenced multiple occasions and I don't feel like finding it. Off the top of my head, Ossomer mentioned doing it and I don't believe he was ever Heir. It was also brought up about Haffaton also.

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     Post Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:35 pm 
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    Couple things. First, we know why Delphi was in the Tower. She was writing the booping note and hiding the booping hat! The note feels like a desperation move of someone who's just about to die. Maybe do something good before she goes.

    Second. We know a good bit about Heirs, but here's something that we don't know: Does Heir status go away when one joins another Side? We know that Heirs are capable of existing as Barbarians and founding new Sides. We don't know what happens when an Heir joins an existing Side as a subordinate unit.

    As of Book 2, Wanda's been on at least three Sides since Goodminton. Can we really assume she's still an Heir? Wanda was a Barbarian Heir. She then joins Haffaton. Is she still a Heir? As what, a Barbarian? But she's a Haffaton unit. If Haffaton appoints an Heir, what is Wanda then? Is Wanda capable of 'turning', leaving Haffaton to found her own Side? How would that work? What about Loyalty and Duty? Do Heirs permanently gain a greater measure of free will? There are a lot of unanswered questions about Heirs and Wanda, and I'm not willing to stay that she's still considered an Heir.

    We don't know whether Heir status 'survives' joining another Side. Jillian never joined another side after becoming Barbarian. She went straight from FAQ hair to Barbarian to Queen with nothing in-between. All the other Heirs we've seen have only existed only within a Side. Arguments could be made for the Heir of Unaroyal, but she was both Decrypted and dusted and we don't know if her Heir status survived either. The only people we've seen exercise Heir status either existed within only one Side, or went directly from Original Side to Barbarian to Ruler without joining another Side.

    My opinion is that Heir is a permanent trait given to a Unit at the time it is designated. It, like Royalty, is something that stays with the unit no matter what. Once an Heir, always an Heir. That would mean that Wanda is still an Heir. I have no evidence to back that up, making it just an unsubstantiated believe at this point.

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     Post Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:46 am 
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    0beron wrote:
    Okay, simple answer to a few points that have been raised. All units require upkeep.

    Except, of course, the decrypted. That's why I brought this whole thing up. :P


    Quote:
    Rulers are the only ones that can independently survive the ending of their side (it losing it's capital). This is made explicitly clear (with the exception of casters in the MK). Thus, when a Side falls, the only possible source of upkeep it's units have is their former Ruler. This is why only units stacked with the former ruler survive the disbanding.


    It isn't made nowhere near explicitly clear. No-one ever mentioned it directly. Relevant erfworld links.

    Though, now I do lean to think that only rulers survive when the capital falls...

    I think it all depends on whether a ruler was in a capital or not. If they were in, they would be captured when the garrison zones were taken. We know this from here. So was King Saline IV first captured (because the garrison fell) and then croaked, or croaked before the capital fell? Former would mean Stanley survived because he was an heir designate and latter that he survived because he was a ruler for a brief moment. For Faq's fall, I think Banhammer was croaked before captured, meaning Jillian was a ruler before Faq fell (as Radagast said). And we know Wanda was a ruler before Goodminton fell.


    ---

    So... What would happen when a stack of decrypted common infantry turned barbarian, assuming it's possible? Could they command themselves in any way?

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     Post Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:47 am 
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    It IS made explicitly clear that only Rulers can survive the ending of the Side. Queen Bea's suicide, and the Fall of Goodminton prove it, without a doubt.
    • Queen Bea sent EVERY unit (including about a dozen warlords) into the field, specifically knowing that when the side ended, they would disband
    • Every "former" Goodminton unit that was not stacked with Wanda instantly disbanded when the side fell as well.
    Combined, the 2 above examples leave no room for doubt that nobody survives their side falling, with the exception of it's Ruler if they're lucky enough to escape.

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     Post Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:59 am 
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    Yes, it is made explicitly clear that rulers survive their capital's fall. I wasn't arguing that.

    I was arguing that it isn't made explicitly clear that only rulers survive their capital's fall (and casters). See my former post.
    EDIT: I'm still leaning to agree with that, though.
    With decrypted, I'm leaning to think they won't disband due to them being more attached to Wanda, who is a former ruler herself. That is not a fact, though, so any opinion is as true :p


    Last edited by Thoke on Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:07 am 
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    ...yuuuup, I did prove that. The only possible exception is Heirs, if their side somehow falls before the Ruler dies. We don't have an example known to offer evidence about that. But my post specifically DIS-PROVES that all other Warlords and units disband when the side falls.

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     Post Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:12 am 
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    So where does it say that heirs disband when their capital falls? Bea's case only proved she didn't have an heir, and Goodminton didn't have an heir when their capital fell.


    Last edited by Thoke on Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:14 am 
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    *facepalm* you seriously don't even read my posts do you!? I JUST SAID that Heirs may be the possible exception. We don't have a case where we KNOW the side ended before the Heir became Ruler, so that's the only possible loophole left. Every other kind of unit HAS been proven to not survive.

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     Post Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:19 am 
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    Well first you claimed that [only] rulers survive when their capital falls, and I didn't notice you changed you stance on that.
    We agree then, it seems.

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     Post Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:20 am 
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    Yes we do technically agree. My OPINION is that even an Heir would disband in such a rare situation, but I acknowledge there is no proof of it, so that's just my prediction.

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     Post Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:05 pm 
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    I don't suspect there is a mechanism for a side falling without the ruler dying (or being captured), and that would moot this point...

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     Post Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:08 pm 
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    drachefly wrote:
    I don't suspect there is a mechanism for a side falling without the ruler dying (or being captured), and that would moot this point...

    If Parson had lost tBfGK, the side would have ended and Stanley would have been a Barbarian, that's why he booked it for old FAQ (with a max stack, so they wouldn't disband). So the only question is whether this is something that occurs when a Ruler loses ALL their cities, or just when they lose their Capital.

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