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 Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:16 pm 
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Ugh. Goodminton was not razed/rebuilt after it was conquered and it was owned by Haffaton which strongly implies that Haffaton conquered it. Faq had not popped Jillian to send her out to do mercenary work at that point either. Ergo, I do not believe Faq conquered Goodminton.
I find it interesting that Goodminton was left in the same state as it was - neither razed or rebuilt. The reason was probably a lesson to Wanda, a lack of schmuckers or a combination of the two.
Re: the Tannenbaums, etc. I think that may be answered once we find out what other casters Haffaton has/had. I would guess Charlie, but I doubt that Haffaton had the schmuckers to spare since they didn't raze/rebuild the city. I would guess that Haffaton struck a deal wih Frenemy and/or Quisling to do it for them and then had them transfer the city in exchange for a non-aggression pact or something.

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:35 pm 
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    joosy wrote:
    I would guess that Haffaton struck a deal wih Frenemy and/or Quisling to [attack Goodminton] it for them and then had them transfer the city in exchange for a non-aggression pact or something.

    I theorized this earlier in the thread, slightly different. I think Frenemy/Quisling did it, probably at Haffaton's urging, so that Olive would have something to goad Wanda with. If she had an enemy she hated more than Haffaton, then it's easier to make her turn to Haffaton.
    So to clarify, I mean Frenemy/Quisling attacked the city initially and killed the side. Olive then got Wanda to join her for a counter-attack against it that same turn or the following turn. That would explain why both Air Defenses were fired AND Walls were damaged. Fre/Qui have fliers, while Haffaton has ground.

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:41 pm 
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    joosy wrote:
    I would guess Charlie, but I doubt that Haffaton had the schmuckers to spare since they didn't raze/rebuild the city. I would guess that Haffaton struck a deal wih Frenemy and/or Quisling to do it for them and then had them transfer the city in exchange for a non-aggression pact or something.


    I don't want to oversell this idea since I only put it at about 30% likely that Charlie had a role in this, but I'll point out that your argument could be turned around temporally... i.e. they didn't have the schmuckers to raze/rebuild because they hired Charlie.

    It is interesting that they let the city go fallow like this. I'm guessing that we're seeing that Haffaton just doesn't value its cities very highly... which probably had something to do with the diminishing returns mechanic that has been hinted at, but not revealed.

    People have argued that there is no diminishing returns mechanic beside geometry, but to make that argument correctly we first need to know how many schmuckers a side earns. If income is proportional to area (or proportional to cities, which are in turn proportional to area... or proportional to units spent "harvesting" which I would think would be proportional to cities), then there should be no need to stop growing. Likely mechanics are a "distance from capital" economy tax on schmuckers earned from a city, or that there is simply no relationship between income and territory. The only ways we've seen schmuckers gained so far that I know of are razing, finding gems, treaties, and mercenary work. I don't recall that we've yet seen schmuckers appear in the treasury at the start of turn (as is often the case in Civ-like games). Anyway, if income is independent of area/cities/units-not-doing-mercenary-work, then we can explain why Charlescomm is going with the 1-city approach and why Haffaton is so woefully underdefended (can't have units keep up with area that they're defending because units cost too much to support... also explains why they are abnormally over-harvested... if that is the correct reading into the forests being barren of food). Where I'm going with this is that we've seen a schmucker sink (upkeep) and we've seen schmucker transfers, but I don't recall a true schmucker source (though I should reread the city-management text update sometime soon)... yet there has to be one or else erfworld would be fueled purely by found gems, and would therefore be ultimately unsustainable (since we've seen gems be depleted).

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:48 pm 
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    0beron wrote:
    So to clarify, I mean Frenemy/Quisling attacked the city initially and killed the side. Olive then got Wanda to join her for a counter-attack against it that same turn or the following turn. That would explain why both Air Defenses were fired AND Walls were damaged. Fre/Qui have fliers, while Haffaton has ground.


    Maaybe, but that would mean Wanda would be overlooking Haffaton's poisoning of her brother. She didn't seem like she was likely to let that go. You might be right, but I'd put her motivations as equal parts revenge on Frenemy/Quisling, and jumping at the opportunity to be Haffaton's poison pill if that did happen.

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:49 pm 
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    A few points effataigus.
    As for why the city was left fallow like this, I suspect it is directly tied to Wanda. It's Signamancy, or perhaps some other natural mancy that leaves her more docile. Leaving it as a reminder of the price she paid for fighting Haffaton hopefully prevents her from doing so again. They left it for symbolic reasons, not necessarily monetary ones.

    As for the diminishing schmucker point, I was actually one of the people arguing that it didn't exist, and I was proven wrong. Parson and Jillian both speak of it in direct terms. Parson mentions GK has just hit that threshold when he is talking to Charlie during Summer Updates, and Jillian mentions in Book 0 that "each of Haffaton's cities must produce a very tiny amount of schmuckers each turn" or something to that effect. So we don't know the exact numeric mechanic, but you are right that it does indeed exist.

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    Last edited by 0beron on Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:51 pm 
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    0beron wrote:
    Why do you say that? When Goodminton fell, FAQ had no mobile force. It was in response to first meeting Wanda that Marie called for the heir to be popped. Which means that when Goodminton fell a dozen or so turns later, Jillian wasn't even popped yet, which means FAq was a bubble kingdom that wasn't using the mercenary tactic.

    What I think more likely is that Haffaton somehow hot Frenemy or Quisling to attack (both of them had fliers). Then the hooves that Wanda heard approaching on the road was Haffaton, with Olive there to act innocent and deliver the news that it was another side that killed Firebaugh. She angers Wanda, and gets her to join Haffaton out of rage. They double back, and easily retake Goodminton a few turns later. That would explain why the air defenses have been spent AND the buildings damaged by Siege. Air defenses were fired against Frenemy/Quisling, and buildings were damaged by Haffaton.

    They didn't have an heir. An army on the other hand... But that's neither here nor there, as you can rest assured that they had Garrison Units, they'd have had a few Turns to pop more and of course they'd have needed a small amount of fliers for their system to work. If they were even using that system at the time of course. Taking Goodminton's weakness and the absense of Wanda into account, how strong a force would they even need?

    Frenemy and Quisling had withdrawn from the area. Also, their last attack had been heavily defeated without Wanda having to do more than a bit of tactical construction.

    effataigus wrote:
    Not sure why I'm still arguing this...

    You're saying they have a good shot of failing their hide check. I'm saying that, with a predictamancer and a lookamancer, they don't have to make one. Unlike the path to Faq from GK, there is more than one route to Haffaton... they can pick the one that doesn't go over any warlords or scouts (or pick the on that the predictamancer never predicts their turn order updating to reflect an engagement).

    mer·ce·nar·y/ˈmərsəˌnerē/
    Adjective:
    (of a person or their behavior) Primarily concerned with making money at the expense of ethics.
    Noun:
    A professional soldier hired to serve in a foreign army.

    Jillian didn't even know that Goodminton the side existed until this update.

    In reverse order: Gillian didn't know about the Predicted destruction of her Side until shortly after the start of Book Zero: Part II. You expect her to conjure knowledge of such matters from thin air?

    Cute. You will of course explain, in detail, why you think Goodminton's neighbours would feel the need to waste money hiring an army at great expense to finish a broken Side that is weakening with every passing day. And what even gave you the impression that Charlescomm existed back in the Goodminton Era?

    And lastly... Yes, I realise you're claiming that Faq's Caster's are Godlike and infalliable. That is laughable. Veils can be pierced, Scouts can be hidden, choke points can be blocked and Predictamancy can tell you the exact speed and weight of the Rhino charging at you. Oh wait! It already did.

    joosy wrote:
    Ugh. Goodminton was not razed/rebuilt after it was conquered and it was owned by Haffaton which strongly implies that Haffaton conquered it. Faq had not popped Jillian to send her out to do mercenary work at that point either. Ergo, I do not believe Faq conquered Goodminton.
    I find it interesting that Goodminton was left in the same state as it was - neither razed or rebuilt. The reason was probably a lesson to Wanda, a lack of schmuckers or a combination of the two.
    Re: the Tannenbaums, etc. I think that may be answered once we find out what other casters Haffaton has/had. I would guess Charlie, but I doubt that Haffaton had the schmuckers to spare since they didn't raze/rebuild the city. I would guess that Haffaton struck a deal wih Frenemy and/or Quisling to do it for them and then had them transfer the city in exchange for a non-aggression pact or something.

    Well of course Haffaton conquered the City, they'd have had to, they own the boopin' place, the only alternative is for them to have bought the City from someone else, which is an odd thing to do if you're planning to leave the place to rot. But that's not the same thing as saying they took Goodminton the City from Goodminton the Side. As for Gill, I don't see why she'd be needed, it's akin to saying that Jetstone can't have formed a grand alliance at some point before Ansom was popped.

    As far as the state of the City goes, maybe Delphie left them a note? Or messaged them by hat.

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:53 pm 
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    Whispri wrote:
    Frenemy and Quisling had withdrawn from the area. Also, their last attack had been heavily defeated without Wanda having to do more than a bit of tactical construction.

    ONE of them was heavily defeated (I forget which). The other got away without a scratch...and we don't know how FAR they retreated.

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:02 pm 
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    0beron wrote:
    Parson mentions GK has just hit that threshold when he is talking to Charlie during Summer Updates, and Jillian mentions in Book 0 that "each of Haffaton's cities must produce a very tiny amount of schmuckers each turn" or something to that effect. So we don't know the exact numeric mechanic, but you are right that it does indeed exist.


    Oh indeed, I know it is real... when I said "but never revealed" I was referring to the specifics of the mechanic, not its existence. I'd love to reread that update where Jillian says that line about the number of schmuckers Haffaton produces. As always, I'm not doubting that it's there, just must have missed it and would love to know if anyone knows where this was said!

    As for Whispri's arguments, I think we've reached the end of our productive discussion on this topic. A younger me would have argued until sundown, but this iteration of me is comfortable with "we think differently." To save us both some time, I'll add you to the list of people that I only respond to when I agree with ya.

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:06 pm 
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    0beron wrote:
    joosy wrote:
    I would guess that Haffaton struck a deal wih Frenemy and/or Quisling to [attack Goodminton] it for them and then had them transfer the city in exchange for a non-aggression pact or something.

    I theorized this earlier in the thread, slightly different. I think Frenemy/Quisling did it, probably at Haffaton's urging, so that Olive would have something to goad Wanda with. If she had an enemy she hated more than Haffaton, then it's easier to make her turn to Haffaton.
    So to clarify, I mean Frenemy/Quisling attacked the city initially and killed the side. Olive then got Wanda to join her for a counter-attack against it that same turn or the following turn. That would explain why both Air Defenses were fired AND Walls were damaged. Fre/Qui have fliers, while Haffaton has ground.


    The only issue is that Goodminton is left in the exact state that it was when it fell - no indication of anyone else coming in and taking over. Its like the city was conquered once and then just left alone. Not razed/rebuilt, etc.

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:08 pm 
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    So? Just because Frenemy/Quisling took it first means it couldn't have stayed damaged? If Olive recruited Wanda to strike back with her on that same turn or the next one, there may not have been time/money to rebuild the city yet before Haffaton arrived.

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:17 pm 
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    Wait, are we being dumb?

    Jillian is assuming that there might have been flyers based upon the tower defenses having been spent, but they were spent here:
    http://www.erfworld.com/2012/01/inner-p ... isode-020/

    Is it possible they were just never recharged, and that it really was just the Tannenbaums that wrecked the place? Tannenbaums might be hard to sneak in, but a caster to animate the tannenbaums with a foolmancy scroll might be easier.

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:24 pm 
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    *facepalm* yuuuuuuup, thanks Eff, I forgot about that.
    HOWEVER.....When Wanda was made Ruler for a split second, she felt Delphi was in the Tower, firing spells.

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:24 pm 
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    0beron wrote:
    *facepalm* yuuuuuuup, thanks Eff, I forgot about that.
    HOWEVER.....When Wanda was made Ruler for a split second, she felt Delphi was in the Tower, firing spells.


    Ah, kk, nice catch!

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:29 pm 
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    effataigus wrote:
    Ah, kk, nice catch!

    *correction....I just checked and it only says "Delphi was there, in the Tower, Wounded." Now, I for one would assume that the only reason she SHOULD have been there is to fire spells into the Airspace, otherwise she should have retreated into the MK, or croaked in the Courtyard firing spells instead. But we don't actually have confirmation she was attacking Fliers when she croaked.

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:51 pm 
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    No, as I explained in page 3, the tower had some spells in it. It was a late edit though, so you might have missed it.

    Inner Peace 20 wrote:
    [...] boosted spells were already flying from the newly powerful tower, and Delphie...dottering, vain Delphie, was commanding all of the magic Goodminton could bring to bear. [...] Frenemy units fell by twos and threes, the victims of outrageously high damage outcomes and critical hit rates. Their remaining single warlord, badly burned by a lightning blast to his sword arm, looked up at Quisling's forces. They were hanging there, untouched and unmoving, offering no help. He must have made a very easy decision. Frenemy escaped Goodminton's airspace with more than half their total units still alive; the battle was decisive mainly for the high-value targets they had lost. Fritz stood atop the tall new tower, leaving his sword in its sheath. He signaled to Quisling by pointing to the horizon, with Delphie standing at his back, ready to cast. Before ten minutes had passed, they too had withdrawn from Goodminton's airspace.


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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:53 pm 
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    Also, the hat was last used by Overlord Firebaugh before he was croaked. That meant Delphi would have had to grab the hat, wrap up the wand and hide them both before beginning her last stand.

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:14 pm 
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    Quote:
    [...] Something they never knew about hit this city—the tannenbaums, and maybe some air forces, judging by how the tower spells had been spent.

    Huh. That didn’t click. Haffaton didn’t really do flyers. And how would you sneak in tannenbaums that close without detection? Their move was crap. Minimal scouting would’ve seen them coming turns away.


    Fliers that can avoid detection... sound like anyone we know?

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:36 pm 
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    effataigus wrote:
    Oh indeed, I know it is real... when I said "but never revealed" I was referring to the specifics of the mechanic, not its existence. I'd love to reread that update where Jillian says that line about the number of schmuckers Haffaton produces. As always, I'm not doubting that it's there, just must have missed it and would love to know if anyone knows where this was said!


    here's the full update
    http://www.erfworld.com/2012/03/inner-p ... isode-028/

    Quote:
    Despite the perils of the situation and the impossibility of working for Haffaton, Jillian couldn't help but be interested at the whiff of money. She had always assumed Haffaton was financially strapped. If they did have so many cities, then each one must only contribute the barest few Shmuckers to their treasury. After a certain number of city levels per side, the Shmuckers each city produced would begin to decline. Very large sides were hard to maintain, and had a habit of splitting off into new sides for the efficiency of it.

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:48 pm 
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    joosy wrote:
    Ugh. Goodminton was not razed/rebuilt after it was conquered and it was owned by Haffaton which strongly implies that Haffaton conquered it. Faq had not popped Jillian to send her out to do mercenary work at that point either. Ergo, I do not believe Faq conquered Goodminton.
    I find it interesting that Goodminton was left in the same state as it was - neither razed or rebuilt. The reason was probably a lesson to Wanda, a lack of schmuckers or a combination of the two.
    Re: the Tannenbaums, etc. I think that may be answered once we find out what other casters Haffaton has/had. I would guess Charlie, but I doubt that Haffaton had the schmuckers to spare since they didn't raze/rebuild the city. I would guess that Haffaton struck a deal wih Frenemy and/or Quisling to do it for them and then had them transfer the city in exchange for a non-aggression pact or something.
    The problem with this is the rule of narrative detail: Jillian specifically noted that the fact that the city was apparently crushed from the air and the presence of the Tennenbaums were weird.

    The narrative wouldn't have bothered to cover that if it weren't important in some way, and your explanations (while they technically satisfy) are boring. I mean, so what? Why waste a paragraph or two to have Jillian wonder at how odd it was for the city to be smashed from the sky if that doesn't have any narrative significance?

    Conservation of detail says that there's at least some story worth telling here.

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:23 pm 
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    Morni wrote:

    Well spank me red, that is a very direct answer to something I've been wondering about Erfworld for a long time... I wonder how I read over it without picking that up! Reading comprehension fail.

    Ok, so it sounds like we understand the diminishing returns mechanic reasonably well!

    Thanks, Morni!

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