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 Post Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:22 pm 
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We don't KNOW that Jillian didn't contact Wanda, by the way. She could have contacted Wanda either before or after sending the note to King Banhammer.

Either way, whether she does it now or later, we know that Jillian DOES join forces with Wanda. And perhaps was thus averted the future in which ALL Jillian's loved ones died. This way at the very least Jack and Wanda survived, and Marie (if Jillian cares).

It's strange, obviously. All we know is that FAQ did not end up with a city outside of its bubble, let alone moving capitals to the site of Haffaton, and yet it did acquire Wanda. That would suggest that the decapitation strike succeeds (quite possibly with the help of Wanda the Betrayer) but that they chose to sack Haffaton instead of seizing it - perhaps in the belief that with the Haffaton threat ended, FAQ was no long at risk? Or due to another prediction by Marie that if they didn't move the capital, Queen Jillian would rule FAQ in 500 turns' time or something like that which conveniently misleads the FAQians....

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     Post Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:32 pm 
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    cheeseaholic wrote:
    StClair wrote:
    Consider this paradox, then: if Parson ends the dominion of Fate over the world by breaking it, that is an action - the last action - that was Fated to happen. Fate brings about its own end.


    Firstly that isn't a paradox, secondly even if Parson destroys fate that doesn't mean that he was fated to do so, and thirdly Erfworld's fate may not affect Parson.


    1. Point; perhaps I misspoke. However see 3., below.
    2. Don't all the portents already point that way?
    3. Ah, here's the paradox: he's the only one who can, because he's from outside and not subject to Fate. And yet, the actions of everyone else - bringing him here, putting him in the right place at the right time to actually do it - may well be Fated. :) Which would make that moment, and that choice, the one that cannot be foreseen or seen beyond (as in the Matrix trilogy).

    I don't know if that's true or not. We'll find out. :)

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     Post Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:44 pm 
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    Despite the fact that Jillian has Delphie's prediction in hand, we still don't know if Jillian is taking the easy way or hard way. Which choice is which, is often only apparent in hindsight, but I suspect that in successfully resisting Wanda's interrogations, Jillian has already chosen the hard way (and it will accelerate FAQ's doom).

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:03 am 
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    StClair wrote:
    2. Don't all the portents already point that way?


    No. Not everything is fated, as has been pointed out already by the predictamancers. Only certain points are fated. The destruction of fate may not be one of those points.


    StClair wrote:
    3. Ah, here's the paradox: he's the only one who can, because he's from outside and not subject to Fate. And yet, the actions of everyone else - bringing him here, putting him in the right place at the right time to actually do it - may well be Fated. :) Which would make that moment, and that choice, the one that cannot be foreseen or seen beyond (as in the Matrix trilogy).

    I don't know if that's true or not. We'll find out. :)


    Who's to say that he is the only one who can? Granted, it's possible that fate is an intelligent thing (or at least somewhat) and protects itself. But that's not a given. If there's a way of doing it and fate doesn't stop it, it could happen anyway without Parson. If Parson is fated to destroy fate, well ok then. But you can't simply say that it is so.

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:23 am 
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    Magothys wrote:
    My memory is foggy; did Faq have a turnamancer? If they didn't, I see a possible grammar mistake in the update.

    Quote:
    1. Immediately hire a Turnamancer from the Magic Kingdom. Use them to accelerate production for six turns.


    The words "they" and "them" have neologistic use as genderless singular third person pronouns. Per the OED:

    They. [ singular ] used to refer to a person of unspecified sex: ask someone if they could help.

    Them. [ singular ] referring to a person of unspecified sex: how well do you have to know someone before you call them a friend?

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:27 am 
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    Guys, this is starting to sound kinda profound... I'm too hung over to debate free will right now, especially in the context of the collapsing structure of Erfworld's reality... so sticking to simpler fare...

    Whispri wrote:
    Visible, well any Warlord or scout they fly over will have dozens of chances to pierce the veil, if not hundreds.

    Recall that with a predictamancer and a lookamancer on staff, something will have gone seriously wrong if they ever fly over a single scout or warlord before the capital strike. Jack has been skilled enough to keep people who blundered into entire cities from noticing, but with a small mobile strike force like this one they don't have to leave that up to chance.

    Whispri wrote:
    effataigus wrote:
    As a card carrying member of the "Charlie behind every bush" club, I approve of this speculation. Flying units appearing as if from nowhere in a capital strike sounds like his MO to me. I'm just curious, if he was there, whether he was getting paid to be.

    What would he gain from such an attack? When has he ever done so? Did he even exist back then?

    Now Faq? Their whole thing is secretive airstrikes and they have a motive, the same motive behind Gillian's unprovoked attacks on Haffaton. The Lady Wanda Firebaugh, the girl destined to end them, was of Goodminton. If you're planning to fight Fate, destroying Goodminton woulld be the obvious way to do so.

    1. I agree that there is no solid evidence that this is Charlie... just that my mathamancy bracer gives him the plurality of the votes on this one.
    2. Did you just imply that Faq was behind the fall of Goodminton?

    splexis wrote:
    They. [ singular ] used to refer to a person of unspecified sex: ask someone if they could help.

    Them. [ singular ] referring to a person of unspecified sex: how well do you have to know someone before you call them a friend?
    Sure beats "him/her."

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:47 am 
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    technojunkie wrote:
    On a more intelligent note... Assuming Jillian does contact wanda; Who want's to bet the note says "easy way or hard way?"


    When the veil on the decapitation fleet is dropped over Haffaton, Jillian should send Wanda Delphie's note and add, "Her Prediction implies that one of us will turn to the other's Side. You know my loyalty is strong; how's yours? You would be happier with Faq and you owe Haffaton vengeance. Practice what you preach and take the easy way."

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:53 am 
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    Y'know, i kinda wish that Rob had not told us this was good mitten right from the get go, and instead avoided giving us the cities name until after this part where Jillian finds out that this was Wanda's city. Might have made the surprise that jillian had stumbled across goodminton a bit more potent.

    Arky wrote:
    It's strange, obviously. All we know is that FAQ did not end up with a city outside of its bubble, let alone moving capitals to the site of Haffaton, and yet it did acquire Wanda. That would suggest that the decapitation strike succeeds (quite possibly with the help of Wanda the Betrayer) but that they chose to sack Haffaton instead of seizing it - perhaps in the belief that with the Haffaton threat ended, FAQ was no long at risk? Or due to another prediction by Marie that if they didn't move the capital, Queen Jillian would rule FAQ in 500 turns' time or something like that which conveniently misleads the FAQians....


    Its not really strange. When Jillian first came up with the idea of a decapitation strike it was one of the possible outcomes. Either they would take many of haffaton's cities and become a large powerful side, or they would raze haffaton's cities too provide a huge boost to the treasury and go back to their little bubble. When it comes down to it, before the expansionist haffaton came along, Faq was doing fairly well in its bubble.

    Thoke wrote:
    I suspect that the unforeseen force that destroyed Goodminton might have some importance later on... Maybe it's an another trick Haffaton has up on it's sleeves, it could even be the reason why Haffaton is so successfull, if that force really is good to hide and sack unsuspecting enemy cities. Or it may be Charlie, or an Arkentool at work... Or something else.
    I wonder what Wanda will think when she hears about (Jillian) razing Goodminton the City. If that had any sentimental value to her.


    Well the most likely option was that the flying forces came from Goodminton's former allies who had joined up with haffaton after... Wanda's garden is enough to let us suspect that at least frenemy, if not both sides were ended by haffaton. However the point about the tannenbaums sneaking up on the city is a bit more perplexing as that might have required foolamancy. Archon's could help there, though this could also mean that haffaton itself has a foolamancer.

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:10 am 
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    MonteCristo wrote:
    Well the most likely option was that the flying forces came from Goodminton's former allies who had joined up with haffaton after... Wanda's garden is enough to let us suspect that at least frenemy, if not both sides were ended by haffaton. However the point about the tannenbaums sneaking up on the city is a bit more perplexing as that might have required foolamancy. Archon's could help there, though this could also mean that haffaton itself has a foolamancer.

    Or, since they are a plant unit type, they could have been placed there after Goodminton fell, the same way the peashooter plants were placed in Diecast. Haffaton uses a Florist, so staging plantlife in barely defended cities is not unusual. No sneaking involved.

    Or, they could have been wild tannenbaums, and made their way in from the surrounding forest well after the city fell. Jillian made the assumption that they had ripped the gates down, and she could have been wrong.

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:20 am 
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    MonteCristo wrote:
    Y'know, i kinda wish that Rob had not told us this was good mitten right from the get go, and instead avoided giving us the cities name until after this part where Jillian finds out that this was Wanda's city. Might have made the surprise that jillian had stumbled across goodminton a bit more potent.

    Arky wrote:
    It's strange, obviously. All we know is that FAQ did not end up with a city outside of its bubble, let alone moving capitals to the site of Haffaton, and yet it did acquire Wanda. That would suggest that the decapitation strike succeeds (quite possibly with the help of Wanda the Betrayer) but that they chose to sack Haffaton instead of seizing it - perhaps in the belief that with the Haffaton threat ended, FAQ was no long at risk? Or due to another prediction by Marie that if they didn't move the capital, Queen Jillian would rule FAQ in 500 turns' time or something like that which conveniently misleads the FAQians....


    Its not really strange. When Jillian first came up with the idea of a decapitation strike it was one of the possible outcomes. Either they would take many of haffaton's cities and become a large powerful side, or they would raze haffaton's cities too provide a huge boost to the treasury and go back to their little bubble. When it comes down to it, before the expansionist haffaton came along, Faq was doing fairly well in its bubble.


    Sure, but their plans are currently based on a prediction that the city of FAQ will fall and that they need a new capital site pronto. It's strange that, if they succeed on taking a capital site, they would go back on the plan and sack the site instead. At least without another prediction.

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:35 am 
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    0beron wrote:
    I have no idea why people are so pissed off at Delphi and calling her crap. She made a perfect prediction! It doesn't hinge on every other side being inept, it hinges on PREDICTAMANCY. Are you all ignoring the crucial nature of that element? She doesn't have to "bet" on certain things happening, she KNOWS they'll happen.


    It's not about the accuracy of the prediction. I have no doubt the prediction was accurate.

    It's about the NOTE she left. Where she basically says "I know stuff. Do what I say, or else!" It's entirely arrogant. DELPHIE knew the future; but she assumed that all she would have to do to communicate this is say "yep, I know it, so follow my instructions." She completely forgot - didn't even consider! - the part where somebody coming across the note might think it's a trap, or might not believe it, or might have doubts about its veracity, or might have doubts about the intentions of the author!

    "Trust me, I know better than you, so do as I say" is not a way to actually get a person to do what you want; it's a way to all but guarantee they'll ignore your instructions so you can point and say "I told you so" afterwards.

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:45 am 
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    So, FAQ does not conquer Haffaton. FAQ still has its three-city bubble kingdom at the time it is overwhelmed by Stanley. FAQ might have an instrumental role to play, but I don't think a huge side like that will simply exchange hands... After all, in the time of Parson, there is no hugely massive side to contend with.

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:06 am 
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    effataigus wrote:
    Thoke wrote:
    I suspect that the unforeseen force that destroyed Goodminton might have some importance later on... Maybe it's an another trick Haffaton has up on it's sleeves, it could even be the reason why Haffaton is so successfull, if that force really is good to hide and sack unsuspecting enemy cities. Or it may be Charlie, or an Arkentool at work... Or something else.
    I wonder what Wanda will think when she hears about (Jillian) razing Goodminton the City. If that had any sentimental value to her.

    As a card carrying member of the "Charlie behind every bush" club, I approve of this speculation. Flying units appearing as if from nowhere in a capital strike sounds like his MO to me. I'm just curious, if he was there, whether he was getting paid to be.


    Oh, I hope it's not Charlie. I'd prefer Charlie to stay in the background in Book 0, as he has so far. The Book 0 is clearly centered around Jillian and Wanda and how their Fates are intertwined (and of course love, fate and free will), and I wouldn't like Charlie as a moving force of Book 0. But that's just my personal preference. I do think we need more background info about Charlie, though. I bet we get some when (if?) Parson gets to have that nice long discussion with Isaac.

    MonteCristo wrote:
    Well the most likely option was that the flying forces came from Goodminton's former allies who had joined up with haffaton after... Wanda's garden is enough to let us suspect that at least frenemy, if not both sides were ended by haffaton. However the point about the tannenbaums sneaking up on the city is a bit more perplexing as that might have required foolamancy. Archon's could help there, though this could also mean that haffaton itself has a foolamancer.


    Inner Peace 22 says that the tower might not have any spells (after the Frenemy shootdown) and Clay didn't hang the newly-bought spells on it. And that means it might not have been flyers which attacked Goodminton.
    "She [Wanda] had left him [Clay] with orders to boost three scouts and then hang spells on the tower again" (From Inner Peace 22). So the attacking force might have been anything...

    EDIT: After further reading it seems the tower did have some spells in it, as it was mentioned in Inner Peace 20 that Delphie was ready to cast at Quisling after shooting at Frenemy, meaning not all spells from the tower were spent. So nevermind. There was flyers in the attacking group.


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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:44 am 
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    I wonder if Rob put Jillian's full name in Jillian's post to answer the speculation from the last page. We know now that Jillian used her surname while she was a princess in Faq.

    I wonder if we're going to switch away from Faq soon. We're almost at the third leg of this journey.

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:22 am 
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    Direcoyote wrote:
    I wonder if Rob put Jillian's full name in Jillian's post to answer the speculation from the last page. We know now that Jillian used her surname while she was a princess in Faq.
    It's possible. I for one have noticed that he often clarifies things for us as quickly as possible as long as it's just a small detail that doesn't affect the story. So this definitely points to proving that the Zamussles name was not just a lie she told to other sides, it was a name she held as her own. This could mean she popped with the surname Zamussles, or that as the Natural Signamancy of her defiance to Banhammer, her named changed to what she wanted it to be.

    I have a speculation about how a few ways this could all work out with Wanda coming to FAQ. Obviously Haffaton will know the city has been lost to them. So they have a few ways of responding:
    1. They let Wanda go, because it's her home, and they want to keep her angry so that she continues to view Haffaton as her rightful home. Once she arrives, something happens between Jillian and Wanda that leads her to turn, possibly taking all her Uncroaked everywhere with her. Fighting breaks out across Haffaton, and they are left weakened and slowly crumble to strikes from outside parties not mentioned.
    2. Olive is the Ruler of Haffaton as I suspected, and she specifically does NOT want Wanda to know Goodminton has fallen because it would negatively affect her loyalty. So instead, she goes herself to Goodminton, confident that she can easily best a single Warlord with her Chillaxe. She arrives and takes Jillian prisoner again, but has no idea the hidden FAQ force is nearby. She ends turn, and is then caught outside the ruins by FAQ's force, and killed. Haffaton falls because she couldn't afford an heir's upkeep.
    3. A combination of the above, Olive prepares to go herself but Jillian does as advised and contacts Wanda. Wanda arrives without Olive's knowledge, and kills Olive now that she finally has the chance before turning to FAQ. Even if Olive isn't the Ruler, the loss of both their Croakamancer and Florist causes Haffaton to quickly crumble under economic duress.

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:15 am 
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    cheeseaholic wrote:
    Considering they're fated to fall I'd call this a feature not a bug. Let someone take the deserted capital. Everyone max out your purse and turn all schmuckers into gems and hope it happens. Better than letting fate take its course and losing the capital some other time when it's full of people and you got nowhere to go. If you can't defeat fate, use it. Of course I doubt that Jillian thought that far ahead.

    If 'they' means Faq, the King is Fated to fall with the Kingdom, having him flee the Capital changes nothing.

    effataigus wrote:
    Recall that with a predictamancer and a lookamancer on staff, something will have gone seriously wrong if they ever fly over a single scout or warlord before the capital strike. Jack has been skilled enough to keep people who blundered into entire cities from noticing, but with a small mobile strike force like this one they don't have to leave that up to chance.

    1. I agree that there is no solid evidence that this is Charlie... just that my mathamancy bracer gives him the plurality of the votes on this one.
    2. Did you just imply that Faq was behind the fall of Goodminton?

    Hundreds of guys in the open sky ain't small in terms of search profile. Even if the Megawhatevers only count as a single 'ping' regardless of the number of passengers, it's not like that Foolamancer was expected to hide Stanley and his Dwagons from the Translyvito ambush. It should be remembered that Scouts can hide themselves from sight and that patrols can sweeep a wide area. It's much more serious a problem than having to hide an isolated City from time to time.

    1. Why? What would he gain from it? An empty treasury and a City he didn't manage to raze?
    2. No, I stated it outright and not for the first time in this thread, let alone all the others. Here I'll do it again: Faq had means, motive and opportunity with regards to the murder of the Side of Goodminton.

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:26 am 
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    Whispri wrote:
    [I think that FAQ is what killed the original Goodminton]

    Why do you say that? When Goodminton fell, FAQ had no mobile force. It was in response to first meeting Wanda that Marie called for the heir to be popped. Which means that when Goodminton fell a dozen or so turns later, Jillian wasn't even popped yet, which means FAq was a bubble kingdom that wasn't using the mercenary tactic.

    What I think more likely is that Haffaton somehow hot Frenemy or Quisling to attack (both of them had fliers). Then the hooves that Wanda heard approaching on the road was Haffaton, with Olive there to act innocent and deliver the news that it was another side that killed Firebaugh. She angers Wanda, and gets her to join Haffaton out of rage. They double back, and easily retake Goodminton a few turns later. That would explain why the air defenses have been spent AND the buildings damaged by Siege. Air defenses were fired against Frenemy/Quisling, and buildings were damaged by Haffaton.

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:27 am 
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    ftl wrote:
    Man, predictamancers are arrogant.

    Really, Delphie? Why would she think for even one second that whoever found the note would believe it and would follow the instructions?

    I completely don't blame Jillian for ignoring it entirely. For all she knows it could be another Haffaton trap.
    Of course, it's also possible Delphie Predicted how Jillian would react and counted on it.

    (But unlikely.)

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:33 am 
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    Aquillion wrote:
    Of course, it's also possible Delphie Predicted how Jillian would react and counted on it.
    (But unlikely.)

    Ah, but that's the beauty of it, she didn't HAVE to Predict the reaction. Her experience with Wanda may have taught her to count on that reaction from other people too.

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:30 am 
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    Whispri wrote:
    Hundreds of guys in the open sky ain't small in terms of search profile. Even if the Megawhatevers only count as a single 'ping' regardless of the number of passengers, it's not like that Foolamancer was expected to hide Stanley and his Dwagons from the Translyvito ambush. It should be remembered that Scouts can hide themselves from sight and that patrols can sweeep a wide area. It's much more serious a problem than having to hide an isolated City from time to time.

    Not sure why I'm still arguing this...

    You're saying they have a good shot of failing their hide check. I'm saying that, with a predictamancer and a lookamancer, they don't have to make one. Unlike the path to Faq from GK, there is more than one route to Haffaton... they can pick the one that doesn't go over any warlords or scouts (or pick the on that the predictamancer never predicts their turn order updating to reflect an engagement).

    Whispri wrote:
    1. Why? What would he gain from it? An empty treasury and a City he didn't manage to raze?

    mer·ce·nar·y/ˈmərsəˌnerē/
    Adjective:
    (of a person or their behavior) Primarily concerned with making money at the expense of ethics.
    Noun:
    A professional soldier hired to serve in a foreign army.
    Whispri wrote:
    2. No, I stated it outright and not for the first time in this thread, let alone all the others. Here I'll do it again: Faq had means, motive and opportunity with regards to the murder of the Side of Goodminton.

    Jillian didn't even know that Goodminton the side existed until this update.

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