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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 91
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:02 am 
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Text 49 wrote:
Maggie bristled. "Not if I have anything to say in the matter, Lord!" she snapped. "Please. My juice is quite low, and I was monitoring his situation when you interrupted. And something was going awry. May I go?"

That's where she said she was very low. And as I read it in context, this even suggests that she's probably got one more thinkagram in her. Definitely not enough to let Parson run a battle. (Also, sorry is my caps-lock in places made me seem hostile, I wasn't arguing with you, just explaining, sorry.)

Thanks for clarifying the GK column status for me. So that's one less thing Parson has to worry about going forward...but conversely it provides yet another reason I feel he needs to be in the fray. Wanda lost the bulk of her army by losing the column, so she needs to win Spacerock with minimal losses now in order to replenish the army.

So all in all, I still disagree with Lamech, having Parson in Spacerock is still a sound choice.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 91
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:44 pm 
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    Kreistor wrote:
    It doesn't matter if Parson wins GK this turn or loses. Parson is dead if he loses.

    He faces Charlescomm if he wins. Charlie's Turn order is before GK. And we know Charlie has overwhelming forces he can bring to bear. Parson cannot escape Spacerock, except through the MK.

    There is now only one way out.

    1) Parson needs to win Spacerock.
    2) Stanley needs to make Spacerock the Capital.
    3) Wanda and the other casters need to re-enter Spacerock.
    4) Wanda decrypts EVERYTHING!
    5) Parson must defend Spacerock against Charlie.

    Every other future winds up with Parson dead or captured. I do not see any other way for the story to go forward, without the entire paradigm shifting. I do not believe Rob has any intention of that, since Parson as Perfect Warlord fails to be proven.


    Another option:

    1) Parson and Wanda enter Spacerock.
    2) Parson wins
    3) Wanda makes Spacerock the Capital of Goodminton

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 91
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:10 pm 
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    rlc wrote:
    Kreistor wrote:
    It doesn't matter if Parson wins GK this turn or loses. Parson is dead if he loses.

    He faces Charlescomm if he wins. Charlie's Turn order is before GK. And we know Charlie has overwhelming forces he can bring to bear. Parson cannot escape Spacerock, except through the MK.

    There is now only one way out.

    1) Parson needs to win Spacerock.
    2) Stanley needs to make Spacerock the Capital.
    3) Wanda and the other casters need to re-enter Spacerock.
    4) Wanda decrypts EVERYTHING!
    5) Parson must defend Spacerock against Charlie.

    Every other future winds up with Parson dead or captured. I do not see any other way for the story to go forward, without the entire paradigm shifting. I do not believe Rob has any intention of that, since Parson as Perfect Warlord fails to be proven.


    Another option:

    1) Parson and Wanda enter Spacerock.
    2) Parson wins
    3) Wanda makes Spacerock the Capital of Goodminton

    Another option:
    1) Isaac is still an ass and refuses to let Parson enter the portal. Maybe he was monitoring that thinkspace Slately was in.
    2) Sylvia burns Spacerock to the ground, burning Cubbins, and forcing end of turn.
    3) GK collects all of the corpses for transport out of the hex so that Mistress Wanda can replenish the army.
    4) Isaac and tGMtTA give Parson much needed info to neuter Charlie when the need arises.
    5) Parson has Maggie inform the Tool that the army needs to reconvene at GK (and drop off several new casters and prisoners) while Parson is getting mind mumbo jumbo'd.
    6) Charlie spends an entire turn outside Spacerock waiting for Parson to come through, then heads to GK.
    7) Battle for GK part 2 starts.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 91
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:11 pm 
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    rlc wrote:
    Kreistor wrote:
    It doesn't matter if Parson wins GK this turn or loses. Parson is dead if he loses.

    He faces Charlescomm if he wins. Charlie's Turn order is before GK. And we know Charlie has overwhelming forces he can bring to bear. Parson cannot escape Spacerock, except through the MK.

    There is now only one way out.

    1) Parson needs to win Spacerock.
    2) Stanley needs to make Spacerock the Capital.
    3) Wanda and the other casters need to re-enter Spacerock.
    4) Wanda decrypts EVERYTHING!
    5) Parson must defend Spacerock against Charlie.

    Every other future winds up with Parson dead or captured. I do not see any other way for the story to go forward, without the entire paradigm shifting. I do not believe Rob has any intention of that, since Parson as Perfect Warlord fails to be proven.




    Another option:

    1) Parson and Wanda enter Spacerock.
    2) Parson wins
    3) Wanda makes Spacerock the Capital of Goodminton

    Wanda getting her own side sets up another book where Parson (provided he is a part of any side other than hers) is pitted against her and an ever growing army of decrypted.

    [/edit]Had to edit to have my statement outside of the quote.


    Last edited by bladestorm on Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 91
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:24 pm 
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    rlc wrote:
    Kreistor wrote:
    It doesn't matter if Parson wins GK this turn or loses. Parson is dead if he loses.

    He faces Charlescomm if he wins. Charlie's Turn order is before GK. And we know Charlie has overwhelming forces he can bring to bear. Parson cannot escape Spacerock, except through the MK.

    There is now only one way out.

    1) Parson needs to win Spacerock.
    2) Stanley needs to make Spacerock the Capital.
    3) Wanda and the other casters need to re-enter Spacerock.
    4) Wanda decrypts EVERYTHING!
    5) Parson must defend Spacerock against Charlie.

    Every other future winds up with Parson dead or captured. I do not see any other way for the story to go forward, without the entire paradigm shifting. I do not believe Rob has any intention of that, since Parson as Perfect Warlord fails to be proven.


    Another option:

    1) Parson and Wanda enter Spacerock.
    2) Parson wins
    3) Wanda makes Spacerock the Capital of Goodminton

    Actually this is probably a good plan for a variety of reasons:
    1) Eliminates diminishing shmuckers
    2) Increases unit flavor variety
    3) Pop more casters.
    4) Portal Transit

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 91
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:26 pm 
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    bladestorm wrote:
    rlc wrote:
    Kreistor wrote:
    It doesn't matter if Parson wins GK this turn or loses. Parson is dead if he loses.

    He faces Charlescomm if he wins. Charlie's Turn order is before GK. And we know Charlie has overwhelming forces he can bring to bear. Parson cannot escape Spacerock, except through the MK.

    There is now only one way out.

    1) Parson needs to win Spacerock.
    2) Stanley needs to make Spacerock the Capital.
    3) Wanda and the other casters need to re-enter Spacerock.
    4) Wanda decrypts EVERYTHING!
    5) Parson must defend Spacerock against Charlie.

    Every other future winds up with Parson dead or captured. I do not see any other way for the story to go forward, without the entire paradigm shifting. I do not believe Rob has any intention of that, since Parson as Perfect Warlord fails to be proven.


    Another option:

    1) Parson and Wanda enter Spacerock.
    2) Parson wins
    3) Wanda makes Spacerock the Capital of Goodminton

    Another option:
    1) Isaac is still an ass and refuses to let Parson enter the portal. Maybe he was monitoring that thinkspace Slately was in.
    2) Sylvia burns Spacerock to the ground, burning Cubbins, and forcing end of turn.
    3) GK collects all of the corpses for transport out of the hex so that Mistress Wanda can replenish the army.
    4) Isaac and tGMtTA give Parson much needed info to neuter Charlie when the need arises.
    5) Parson has Maggie inform the Tool that the army needs to reconvene at GK (and drop off several new casters and prisoners) while Parson is getting mind mumbo jumbo'd.
    6) Charlie spends an entire turn outside Spacerock waiting for Parson to come through, then heads to GK.
    7) Battle for GK part 2 starts.

    Another option:
    1) Tramennis changes the plan, does not croak Parson
    2) Parson is captured
    3) Parson either defects or is put through some Turnamancy
    4) Parson must now figure out how to stop GK

    And if we really want to get crazy, we have Stanley force Wanda to cast the Summon Perfect Counter Spell or something, and get Parson's gaming group in on this, finally. :P

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 91
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:33 pm 
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    Lamech wrote:
    Actually [having Wanda recreate Goodminton] is probably a good plan for a variety of reasons:
    1) Eliminates diminishing shmuckers
    2) Increases unit flavor variety
    3) Pop more casters.
    4) Portal Transit

    I agree totally, plus it makes plot sense for several reasons. 1) Wanda is becoming at odds with Stanley, and becoming a split-off side to GK might be a good way to resolve this issue without totally abandoning Stanely. 2) alternatively, Wanda could turn back around and take out Stanley, if she comes to the conclusion that what she has been "doing wrong by fate" has been staying with Stanley just because he has a 'Tool.

    I do however want to point out that your "diminishing schmuckers" point may not be true. That is a concept we have just come up with on the forums, it's never appeared in-comic (other than the revelation that cities seem to cost more to build than they are worth when razed). Haffaton's economic problem may very well be a result of how massive their perimeter is and the amount of units needed at the perimeter.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 91
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:50 pm 
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    0beron wrote:
    I do however want to point out that your "diminishing schmuckers" point may not be true. That is a concept we have just come up with on the forums, it's never appeared in-comic (other than the revelation that cities seem to cost more to build than they are worth when razed). Haffaton's economic problem may very well be a result of how massive their perimeter is and the amount of units needed at the perimeter.


    Here's summer update 48 http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2 ... ration.png
    summer update 48 wrote:
    CharlsNChrg: What I am saying is, your Chief Warlord Ansom has ceased to conquer, and has been looking for allies.
    CharlsNChrg: It seems he is trying to drive a wedge in the Coalition.
    LordHamster: That would be smart, but no.
    CharlsNChrg: No?
    LordHamster: I mean yeah we're up against the diminishing Shmuckers point, so it's a good time to pause and do diplomacy. But Ansom's not about that.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 91
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:56 pm 
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    0beron wrote:

    I do however want to point out that your "diminishing schmuckers" point may not be true. That is a concept we have just come up with on the forums, it's never appeared in-comic (other than the revelation that cities seem to cost more to build than they are worth when razed). Haffaton's economic problem may very well be a result of how massive their perimeter is and the amount of units needed at the perimeter.

    It was in book 0 IIRC, Haffaton's cities only produce a tiny amount a piece. If it was just the perimeter issues it would be easier to maintain their side not harder. Basic geometry. The perimeter increases linearly with radius, area increases quadratically.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 91
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:58 pm 
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    0beron wrote:
    I do however want to point out that your "diminishing schmuckers" point may not be true. That is a concept we have just come up with on the forums, it's never appeared in-comic (other than the revelation that cities seem to cost more to build than they are worth when razed). Haffaton's economic problem may very well be a result of how massive their perimeter is and the amount of units needed at the perimeter.


    Ahem. Intermission 48
    Quote:
    LordHamster: I mean yeah we're up against the diminishing Shmuckers point, so it's a good time to pause and do diplomacy.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 91
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 2:01 pm 
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    Ah thanks for that references Morni and Lamech. I was about to argue that Morni's reference still only suggests that the diminishing returns was more figurative that a literal reduction in the number of schmuckers cities produced, but Lamech's reference shows that is indeed the case.

    As for No-one, pay attention, Morni beat you to that reference yet you felt the need to post it anyway. Classy.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 91
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 2:20 pm 
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    Hey, normally the board lets me know when someone else posted while I was typing a response! If I'd seen it, I wouldn't have said anything.

    We all make mistakes sometimes. *shrugs*

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 91
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 2:43 pm 
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    Lamech wrote:
    0beron wrote:

    I do however want to point out that your "diminishing schmuckers" point may not be true. That is a concept we have just come up with on the forums, it's never appeared in-comic (other than the revelation that cities seem to cost more to build than they are worth when razed). Haffaton's economic problem may very well be a result of how massive their perimeter is and the amount of units needed at the perimeter.

    It was in book 0 IIRC, Haffaton's cities only produce a tiny amount a piece. If it was just the perimeter issues it would be easier to maintain their side not harder. Basic geometry. The perimeter increases linearly with radius, area increases quadratically.

    Same update also give credence to Wanda splitting off and forming her own side.
    "Very large sides were hard to maintain, and had a habit of splitting off into new sides for the efficiency of it."

    Wanda splits off and takes the decrypted with her, Stanley stays behind and still has his level 5(+) capitol, all the dwaons he can tame, and the hobgobwins.
    Jack would likely split off with Wanda (his talents are too subtle for Stanley to employ correctly), Maggie stays, Sizemore stays.
    If GK captures the Spacerock casters, Pierce would probably be better served in GK. Stanley would probably like Ace's accessories. The other two go with Wanda.

    That brings up an eerie option- Pliers plus dittomancy. For every living unit that croaks, two stand up, and join Wanda's forces.

    I also wonder if Croakamancy can be set up into a trap. Lace the garrison with Croakamancy traps so that any body that falls there instantly gets reanimated.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 91
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:03 pm 
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    bladestorm wrote:
    Jack would likely split off with Wanda (his talents are too subtle for Stanley to employ correctly), Maggie stays, Sizemore stays.
    If GK captures the Spacerock casters, Pierce would probably be better served in GK. Stanley would probably like Ace's accessories. The other two go with Wanda.

    Well because I suspect the units would technically have to turn if they wanted to join Wanda's new Goodminton, I suspect the redistribution of casters would really depend on the individual's decision. As for the Jetstone casters, if they're captured alive then sure they would be assigned to whichever side...but if they croak and have to be Decrypted, I'm not sure Wanda could actually order them onto GK's side.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 91
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:06 pm 
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    Some of the speculation on this thread makes sense, but doesn't jive with my concept of Stanley:

    He has some redeeming qualities, but he's definitely at the center of his own world. Consider he had Misty killed in order to drag Jack out of a link so that he could run away after a bout of paranoia. He had lots of space on dwagonback that he could evacuate people with, and he left them all behind.

    I don't see him giving permission to start a new side, or even thinking to appoint someone else as an heir. If Wanda reforms Goodminton, she'll do it because Stanley can't stop her.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 91
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:23 pm 
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    effataigus wrote:
    Some of the speculation on this thread makes sense, but doesn't jive with my concept of Stanley:

    He has some redeeming qualities, but he's definitely at the center of his own world. Consider he had Misty killed in order to drag Jack out of a link so that he could run away after a bout of paranoia. He had lots of space on dwagonback that he could evacuate people with, and he left them all behind.

    I don't see him giving permission to start a new side, or even thinking to appoint someone else as an heir. If Wanda reforms Goodminton, she'll do it because Stanley can't stop her.


    He didn't have Misty killed to spare Jack, he would have ordered Maggie to pull all backlash onto herself and Misty if he was aware of it.
    As it was, he just ordered them to break their link, Maggie dumped her backlash on the others, Jack went insane and Misty croaked.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 91
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:38 pm 
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    bladestorm wrote:

    I also wonder if Croakamancy can be set up into a trap. Lace the garrison with Croakamancy traps so that any body that falls there instantly gets reanimated.


    Probably! You need to croak one unit and then when it dies, it stands up and croaks its neighbor, and so on. Could be pretty devastating. Might require a bi-link with a thinkamancer, but probably not a trilink unless you really want to superpower the trap.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 91
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:50 pm 
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    effataigus wrote:
    He had lots of space on dwagonback that he could evacuate people with, and he left them all behind.


    Could easily be that if he brought more, his purse would run out and he wouldn't be able to establish the new capital properly.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 91
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:01 pm 
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    Yes, he didn't order misty killed per se. However, he gave an order that had a high likelihood of resulting in misty's (and Jack's) death, and I think you'd have a hard time making a good argument that he was thinking about anything other than his own hide there.

    drachefly wrote:
    effataigus wrote:
    He had lots of space on dwagonback that he could evacuate people with, and he left them all behind.


    Could easily be that if he brought more, his purse would run out and he wouldn't be able to establish the new capital properly.


    Could make sense... I think we have enough information on purse sizes, level, and approximate distance between GK and Faq to get a good idea, but I'm too lazy to go through the math if it even can be done. Mostly, I'm tempted to agree with you only because pure selfishness would suggest that he should take as much firepower as possible if *something* weren't stopping him, and Stanley is, in my mind, a selfish dood. Nothing about Stanley has suggested to me that he is overly concerned with the fate of those under him (other than his recent attempts to learn Zhoppa's name, and his vaguely apologetic tone when talking to Jack).

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 91
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:09 pm 
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    Kreistor wrote:
    It doesn't matter if Parson wins GK this turn or loses. Parson is dead if he loses.

    He faces Charlescomm if he wins. Charlie's Turn order is before GK. And we know Charlie has overwhelming forces he can bring to bear. Parson cannot escape Spacerock, except through the MK.

    There is now only one way out.

    1) Parson needs to win Spacerock.
    2) Stanley needs to make Spacerock the Capital.
    3) Wanda and the other casters need to re-enter Spacerock.
    4) Wanda decrypts EVERYTHING!
    5) Parson must defend Spacerock against Charlie.

    Every other future winds up with Parson dead or captured. I do not see any other way for the story to go forward, without the entire paradigm shifting. I do not believe Rob has any intention of that, since Parson as Perfect Warlord fails to be proven.

    Just curious, does anyone think that Parson has thought as far ahead as step (2) in this plan? I'd like to think so, but I would also have liked to see some indication of it.


    If Stanley had more trust in Wanda or Parson, he would probably prefer that one of them found a new, allied Side at Spacerock. Some indication that Parson was thinking about this would also have been good.

    The safest way to use this tactic would be
    • GK troops position themselves to defend Spacerock. Many remain in the Garrison to be in a position to take the city back for GK from the new Side, if necessary.
    • One warlord is ordered to found a new Side. This might need to be Parson, but ideally it would be someone less important. I am assuming that the presence of non-hostile allied units does not prevent the capture of a city by a warlord.
    • Only the units that really need the freedom to move between zones off-turn are ordered to turn to the new Side. Wanda is definitely not included.
    • GK indefinitely keeps a strong force in Spacerock's Garrison to maintain the vassal status.


    Another plan Parson could have made (which depends on Slately not making it to the throne room), would be to keep some Jetstone units trapped in a room in the Garrison, blocking the door to prevent them from auto-attacking. Meanwhile, Wanda would decrypt Jetstone troops left and right. When the trapped units are the only Jetstone units left, Parson and the casters he/Stanley wants at GK would retreat to the MK before letting the remaining GK units formally take Spacerock. Left behind would be a new decrypted army to hold Spacerock against the RCC2. Even if Charlescomm had a lot of archons nearby, I don't see why he would attack Spacerock if Parson and Wanda weren't there.

    Of course, even if Slately doesn't make it to the throne room, Charlie could disrupt this plan by providing the thinkamancy to convey Tram's disband order to the trapped units...though Cubbins's incapacitation could throw a monkey wrench into that if only a conscious unit can disband.

    I'm not suggesting that Parson actually did make this plan, since he should have communicated it already if it was what he had in mind. Also, he should have been anticipating that Slately would find a way to appoint an Heir and switch the capital to Jetstone city.

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