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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:25 am 
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I might be reading too deeply into nothing here, but this line struck me as odd..

Quote:
"Stealing this one should put it under her command. She thought.

Well, she hoped..."


This sounds like even Jillian isn't 110% sure of all of Erfworld's mechanics, like maybe she wasn't positive of how ownership of boats works.

I'm trying to think of another example of an Erfworlder not understanding mechanics, and the only other example I remember is King Slately's double not knowing which unit (the double or the original) disappears when croaked.

So maybe everyone was being a bit harsh on Parson back in book 1 when he was questioning all the rules of Erfworld (albeit he was asking about some of the more fundamental things). Dunno.

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     Post Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:05 am 
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    Nnelg wrote:
    MarbitChow wrote:
    Housellama wrote:
    I can totally understand how it runs a paddlewheel. It grants Motion to Erf. It's the intangible things that it does (like game turns and unit loyalty) that I find interesting. I didn't think of those things as being on the Erf axis.
    We've seen hints that 'turning' a unit might involve torture (Jillian complaining that the Turnamancer didn't know how to 'play right', IIRC). Torture devices that involve turning? The rack, perhaps?

    Really, is it that hard to accept that the capabilities of a caster could be based on puns? :roll: :lol:
    Yes. The capabilities of a caster should be based on how cheaply it is made, and the weight of the furniture on top of it. ;)

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     Post Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:24 am 
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    kasimac wrote:
    Also, it would have made more sense for Jillian to use that ceramic to score the glass first, then punch her way out.


    In StupidWorld, sure. Who knows, maybe in Erf it's a bit like the falling rules- it didn't matter that that piece of ceramic wasn't an effective weapon by our terms, what mattered was that it counted as a weapon and thus was able to damage an object like her prison in a way that her unarmed fists wouldn't, like what effataigus was postulating earlier.

    Wanda's fears about Jillian croaking an army with chopsticks would seem to be well-founded. ;)

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    Obviously the mystery caster has no particular feelings one way or the other about Parson, he simply heard "cue the Benny Hill music" and gave chase, compelled to do so by forces outside his control.

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     Post Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:36 am 
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    I see some people complaining that Croakamancy is too much of a one-trick pony compared to Turnamancy. But take a moment to think about it. Croakamancy is capable of providing you with FREE units en-mass. Turnamancy speeds up the production of units that cost you upkeep, turns the occasional single unit at a high juice cost, and makes self-powered vehicles at also an apparently high juice cost (if they were cheap, why wouldn't there be more of them?). So yes, Turn does more things, but none of them are as powerful as croakamancy. It's a quality vs. quantity disparity.

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     Post Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:41 am 
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    TheMutant wrote:
    kasimac wrote:
    Also, it would have made more sense for Jillian to use that ceramic to score the glass first, then punch her way out.


    In StupidWorld, sure. Who knows, maybe in Erf it's a bit like the falling rules- it didn't matter that that piece of ceramic wasn't an effective weapon by our terms, what mattered was that it counted as a weapon and thus was able to damage an object like her prison in a way that her unarmed fists wouldn't, like what effataigus was postulating earlier.

    Wanda's fears about Jillian croaking an army with chopsticks would seem to be well-founded. ;)


    It's entirely possible that Jillian now counted as "armed" and therefore has feats, damage bonuses, etc. that means she could damage the glass and break out, but i think the fact that it was ceramic in particular means that this is a reference to the "urban legend/fact" that ceramic can destroy glass surprisingly effectively.

    as per http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z67DKJUgSa4 for example

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     Post Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:44 am 
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    kasimac wrote:
    Who wants to bet that that dagger was poisoned.
    Also, it would have made more sense for Jillian to use that ceramic to score the glass first, then punch her way out.

    Not for Jillian, it wouldn't. Scoring the glass would require forethought and patience, neither of which are her strongest attributes. Smashing directly through is much more her style. Her weapons of choice are all about over-the-top violence, directed force, and excessive amount of smackdowniness,, not precision or technique. A circle of dwagons over a lake? Punch through it. A line of twolls and uncroaked in the woods? Punch through it. Animate plants? Punch through it. Glass box holding you captive? Punch through it. She much prefers using simple violence to solve her problems than being bothered by such trivialities as technique.

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     Post Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:47 am 
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    Waaaaait a minute, this talk of Jillian and weapons made me realize something...where is the Triple-Edged Sword? She fled the hex without getting it (presumably because she doesn't know where it is), but we know she gets it back!

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     Post Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:05 am 
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    bladestorm wrote:
    kasimac wrote:
    Who wants to bet that that dagger was poisoned.
    Also, it would have made more sense for Jillian to use that ceramic to score the glass first, then punch her way out.

    Not for Jillian, it wouldn't. Scoring the glass would require forethought and patience, neither of which are her strongest attributes. Smashing directly through is much more her style. Her weapons of choice are all about over-the-top violence, directed force, and excessive amount of smackdowniness,, not precision or technique. A circle of dwagons over a lake? Punch through it. A line of twolls and uncroaked in the woods? Punch through it. Animate plants? Punch through it. Glass box holding you captive? Punch through it. She much prefers using simple violence to solve her problems than being bothered by such trivialities as technique.


    I think the entire story about Kiln Kenny was planned and executed purely to deliver some ceramic into her hands, because she knows that ceramic is harder than glass, and capable of shattering it. That's forethought and patience right there. Her first instincts are "stab", perhaps, but she can think. She's not my favourite character by any stretch, so this isn't fanboi apology either.

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     Post Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:13 am 
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    0beron wrote:
    I see some people complaining that Croakamancy is too much of a one-trick pony compared to Turnamancy. But take a moment to think about it. Croakamancy is capable of providing you with FREE units en-mass. Turnamancy speeds up the production of units that cost you upkeep, turns the occasional single unit at a high juice cost, and makes self-powered vehicles at also an apparently high juice cost (if they were cheap, why wouldn't there be more of them?). So yes, Turn does more things, but none of them are as powerful as croakamancy. It's a quality vs. quantity disparity.

    Other disciplines are also capable of giving you free units, en-masse. Dirtamancy can turn your crap into golems (combined with yellow dwagons, you get tons of free units), dollamancers make cloth golems, turmanancy can make other troops your own troops, dittomancy can double your troops.... casters making units is not limited to the uncroaked. And the argument wasn't just against Turnamancy, but against any other discipline that we have seen a decent amount of use of. There are a lot of disciplines that we haven't seen a lot of and have no idea what the extent of their capabilities are, but the disciplines we have seen tend to have a large amount of flexibility. Croakamancy pares down to "focus on one croaked unit to make a really good uncroaked unit that decays slower" and "mass uncroak poorly made units". Every time we see Wanda use something other than that, it is attributed to a different discipline. She sensory deprivation was attributed to Foolamancy. The pain touch was attributed to Shockamancy. The hunger/thirst was attributed to Foolamancy. No upkeep units are just a band-aid for your ranks. They fall apart even without enemy engagement, and require a constant source of freshly croaked to maintain your army. So Croakamancy's one trick has very specific needs. Basically, we have as much information about Croakamancy (which we have seen from the beginning of book 1 and in every book since then) as we do about Luckamancy (which we just have Clay's explanations to work from, so we know that's not the complete picture), and that's speculalted as the worst of all disciplines.

    Wanda is just a bad example of a Croakamancer, because she has talent in so many other disciplines that we have no idea what is Croakamancy and what is something else. We need a Sizemore version of a Croakamancer, so then we'd know that when it used a Headache spell, it was Croakamancy and not some other discipline.

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     Post Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:14 am 
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    BCCroaker wrote:
    So this is the way Wanda finds Faq. Classic really, let a prisoner think they have escaped by there own abilities, then trace or use them in some way. Remember how much control Wanda had over Jillian in Book 1. Also, the boat may be monitored in some way - left there for just that purpose. However, what Wanda does with the information will be interesting as she has to see to her revenge and escape herself.


    The old Death Star Gambit? Next she'll only send 4 TIE fighters against the Falcon.

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     Post Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:17 am 
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    Oberon wrote:
    Smoker wrote:
    Who's turn is it now? Shouldn't Jillian's move have reverted to 0 as soon as she entered a hex as a non-prisoner?
    Very interesting observation. We'll have to see how things resolve. There could never be any escape if captured units had no move once they escaped. Perhaps since this is a Halfaton area? Dunno.


    If I wanted to make the mechanics make sense, I'd say that she moves as a Haffaton unit on Haffaton's turn on the turn she escapes, but next turn if she's still free she reverts to moving on FAQ's turn.

    EDIT: By "next turn" I meant "the next day"

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     Post Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:29 am 
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    udat wrote:
    bladestorm wrote:
    kasimac wrote:
    Who wants to bet that that dagger was poisoned.
    Also, it would have made more sense for Jillian to use that ceramic to score the glass first, then punch her way out.

    Not for Jillian, it wouldn't. Scoring the glass would require forethought and patience, neither of which are her strongest attributes. Smashing directly through is much more her style. Her weapons of choice are all about over-the-top violence, directed force, and excessive amount of smackdowniness,, not precision or technique. A circle of dwagons over a lake? Punch through it. A line of twolls and uncroaked in the woods? Punch through it. Animate plants? Punch through it. Glass box holding you captive? Punch through it. She much prefers using simple violence to solve her problems than being bothered by such trivialities as technique.


    I think the entire story about Kiln Kenny was planned and executed purely to deliver some ceramic into her hands, because she knows that ceramic is harder than glass, and capable of shattering it. That's forethought and patience right there. Her first instincts are "stab", perhaps, but she can think. She's not my favourite character by any stretch, so this isn't fanboi apology either.

    "Not her strongest attributes" doesn't mean "you will never find any examples of". In these forums, some boophat will always dig up one example somewhere that is an exception, and that typical devolves into the next eight pages being a bickering contest over semantics. That's just the way things roll around here.

    There's typical Jillian behavior, and then there's behavior that Jillian is capable of. She's capable of distinguishing between the different forks used at a formal dinner, but typically it revolves around violence, such as plucking out eyeballs with said fork. Jillian exhibited strategy when she turned the Giants to her side and when she captured Duncan and Ansom without any further comflict -- that's not typical Jillian behavior though. 95% of what we have seen of her is erratic, impulsive, and reckless. 5% of the time she behaves in a manner that others would agrees makes sense. So I concur with you that there are a few glimmering moments when she has forethought, patience, tact, or discipline, but those few moments are not what have come to define Jillian.

    Speaking of fork use, I believe someone lost some quatloo since Bart's eye were not popped out with a fork, and he was dusted during Jillian's escape.

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     Post Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:37 am 
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    I still feel that Croakamancy is more powerful than any of the other unit-creation abilities. No other discipline gives you THAT many units at once, and in a world the is built around the idea of constant war, new corpses are not a hard commodity to come by. Also consider that none of those other unit-creation schools are so devastating in battle. In the heat of battle, when you need units the most, you're surrounded by corpses. Croakamancy is the "pinch" school that delivers a win even against difficult odds.

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     Post Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:34 pm 
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    0beron wrote:
    I still feel that Croakamancy is more powerful than any of the other unit-creation abilities. No other discipline gives you THAT many units at once, and in a world the is built around the idea of constant war, new corpses are not a hard commodity to come by. Also consider that none of those other unit-creation schools are so devastating in battle. In the heat of battle, when you need units the most, you're surrounded by corpses. Croakamancy is the "pinch" school that delivers a win even against difficult odds.

    Without seeing unit stats I would agree, though the croakamancer is at greater risk. And with time the other mancers might provide more army strength, but losing the uncroaked doesn't hurt, where as lkosing a lot of golems might.

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     Post Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:40 pm 
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    ShieldOfAthena wrote:
    "Famous?" Outside of one Klog entry by Parson...


    I mean "famous" on the forums, as in a number of people have had ideas for it (many relying on speculative tri-mancer links). Not so easy in real Erf though.

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     Post Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:42 pm 
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    TheMutant wrote:
    Wanda's fears about Jillian croaking an army with chopsticks would seem to be well-founded. ;)


    waait. Sushi... that sushi has a very different level of detail than the other elements of the scene. Is that a photo? Is sushi an artifact?

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     Post Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:48 pm 
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    0beron wrote:
    I still feel that Croakamancy is more powerful than any of the other unit-creation abilities. No other discipline gives you THAT many units at once, and in a world the is built around the idea of constant war, new corpses are not a hard commodity to come by. Also consider that none of those other unit-creation schools are so devastating in battle. In the heat of battle, when you need units the most, you're surrounded by corpses. Croakamancy is the "pinch" school that delivers a win even against difficult odds.

    It is a good pinch school, I'll give it that. But other schools can make lots of units en-masse via scrolls or items if they have prep time. And those don't decay. The hat snow golems are particularly nice for that since the hat can be removed so no upkeep to worry about. (Assuming most golems require upkeep?) But croakamancy does run on constant battles and winning them. It requires a very aggressive style. If you win a battle you have units that you need to use or lose. A dirtamancer or hatamancer can just stockpile items until their needed.

    Remember the problem that Goodmitten had? Wanda had a bunch of uncroaked, but unless they attacked quickly they were all going to decay away. Unless your enemy falls for a trap, you need to attack and attack constantly.But its a good force multiplier especially if the bonuses are in your favor.

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     Post Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:00 pm 
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    Under the circumstances, I'm surprised that she doesn't feel duty-bound to try to assassinate Haffaton's ruler. If the whole city is as much of a walk-in as what she's seen and there's no heirs outside the city, she'd have a very real shot... completing her mission and making her subsequent return home a lot safer.

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     Post Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:02 pm 
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    Raza wrote:
    Under the circumstances, I'm surprised that she doesn't feel duty-bound to try to assassinate Haffaton's ruler.

    A side as big as Haffaton must have an heir/heir-designate, and tons of capital sites. And that's even assuming the Ruler is in the Capital...they might not be. Heck, OLIVE might be the ruler by now, and therefore constantly afield or in the MK.

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     Post Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:05 pm 
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    TheMutant wrote:
    kasimac wrote:
    Also, it would have made more sense for Jillian to use that ceramic to score the glass first, then punch her way out.


    In StupidWorld, sure. Who knows, maybe in Erf it's a bit like the falling rules- it didn't matter that that piece of ceramic wasn't an effective weapon by our terms, what mattered was that it counted as a weapon and thus was able to damage an object like her prison in a way that her unarmed fists wouldn't, like what effataigus was postulating earlier.


    Actually, ceramic is astoundingly good at shattering glass in the real world. Try it some time if you have a pane of glass you are ok with shattering and chuck a bit of ceramic at it with a toss. The results are really surprising. I've seen someone take out an entire car window by accidentally hitting it with a used spark plug they were tossing at someone nearby.

    Here's a vid of tossing small bit of ceramic to punch a hole through the tempered glass of a rear windshield
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RXBxeXU ... ata_player

    And even better, someone throwing a small bit of ceramic at a glass pane and the glass just explodes
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z67DKJUg ... ata_player

    Insulating ceramic is commonly used as a light and easily portable B&E tool.

    I think Rob was on the money the way he had her escape.


    Last edited by DoctorJest on Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:37 pm, edited 8 times in total.
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