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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 89
 Post Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:22 pm 
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Well, if we assume that he was taken right about the time that the comic started (and I think the Hamstard comics end), then I'm wrong and there's not an ongoing connection between the worlds, but the joker reference is something that hasn't happened yet in Stupidworld. Which sort of goes towards the idea that Erfworld made Stupidworld. But since time isn't exactly easy to determine in Erfworld that's not necessarily the case. Or any number of other possible explanations. But still it's interesting.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 89
     Post Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:43 pm 
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    Again, I blame the Arkendish. It could be picking up signals from Stupidworld, projecting them all on a wall of screens for Charlie to watch.... ALL AT ONCE. The Arkendish also opens up a lot of other possibilities that may or may not have been exhibited before. If Thinkamancy is somewhat analogous to telepathy, his unmatched Thinkamancy could be on par with Xavier. Which means he could be capable of far more than just thinkspace image manipulations that defy chronology tied to Parson's arrival.

    Stun bolts
    controlling another's actions via direct hijacking of the part of their mind controlling their body
    mentally holding someone in place
    forcing someone's mind to accept a notion as reality (of course I have all of the correct credentials right here)
    mental invisibility
    locating a specific mind at a distance

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 89
     Post Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 10:27 pm 
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    cheeseaholic wrote:
    That joker image is from after Parson went to Erfworld, which suggests a really weird ongoing connection between the worlds.
    Nice. Now we've got people using the dates of pop-culture references to try to draw some conclusions in the comic...
    bladestorm wrote:
    Maggie is the main proponent for getting Parson through that portal. More evidence that Maggie is Charlie. Or at least a part of him.
    BwAAAA-haaaHAAAhaaa. Ha. Evidence, you say. Hee hee, ha. BwAAAA-haaaHAAAhaaa.
    drachefly wrote:
    The Tlielaxians could bring someone back over and over and over again, not just once. They... stuck around. And their trade secrets were kept for an absurdly long period of time.
    When you're offering eternal life, it's pretty easy to discourage espionage by simply saying "We will accept no customer of whom we suspect espionage." Only spice as a geriatric drug held a similar promise, and look how easy it was for a threat to spice production to make everyone toe the line.
    bladestorm wrote:
    Again, I blame the Arkendish. It could be picking up signals from Stupidworld, projecting them all on a wall of screens for Charlie to watch.... ALL AT ONCE.
    Shades of both Doc Savage and Ozymandias!

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 89
     Post Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 10:53 pm 
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    Oberon wrote:
    cheeseaholic wrote:
    That joker image is from after Parson went to Erfworld, which suggests a really weird ongoing connection between the worlds.
    Nice. Now we've got people using the dates of pop-culture references to try to draw some conclusions in the comic...
    bladestorm wrote:
    Maggie is the main proponent for getting Parson through that portal. More evidence that Maggie is Charlie. Or at least a part of him.
    BwAAAA-haaaHAAAhaaa. Ha. Evidence, you say. Hee hee, ha. BwAAAA-haaaHAAAhaaa.


    Scorn all you like, philistine! Obviously you are too uneducated to understand how evidence works!

    Fact - There is a crack on the window.
    Supporting Evidence - It was not there yesterday
    Conclusion - It was placed there overnight by aliens who broke in to monitor you in your sleep.

    Absolutely unrefuteable.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 89
     Post Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:13 am 
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    Kaed wrote:
    Oberon wrote:
    cheeseaholic wrote:
    That joker image is from after Parson went to Erfworld, which suggests a really weird ongoing connection between the worlds.
    Nice. Now we've got people using the dates of pop-culture references to try to draw some conclusions in the comic...
    bladestorm wrote:
    Maggie is the main proponent for getting Parson through that portal. More evidence that Maggie is Charlie. Or at least a part of him.
    BwAAAA-haaaHAAAhaaa. Ha. Evidence, you say. Hee hee, ha. BwAAAA-haaaHAAAhaaa.


    Scorn all you like, philistine! Obviously you are too uneducated to understand how evidence works!

    Fact - There is a crack on the window.
    Supporting Evidence - It was not there yesterday
    Conclusion - It was placed there overnight by aliens who broke in to monitor you in your sleep.

    Absolutely unrefuteable.

    I'd rather not be mean to someone about it but I do have to disagree. Maggie being pro parson going through actually seems to be COUNTER to Charlie. Fair enough him going through at first did allow him to meet Jojo, but she was always for him going all the way with portal, ahhhhh. Where as I doubt Charlie was.

    Also, when it comes to the arken dish and charlie's references, ALL his references are TV based, it really does seem like someone who is active in thier pop culture SOMEHOW.

    2 Things all the characteres Charlie portrayed had in common.
    They were either insane or REALLY insane. Even from what I know of the Matrix Agent Smith was to the robots, not to mention all of them from standard human are pretty insane.
    Also, all have appeared on television, in the form he takes.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 89
     Post Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:43 am 
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    AllPurposeNerd wrote:
    LTDave wrote:
    But surely there is no specific date for his summoning?


    July 2006.

    http://hamstard.com/ Last update February 20th 2006. Beginning of book 1, Parson said he had been working on the game they were about to play 'for a solid five months,' and they explicitly stated it was July.

    So either there's some indeterminate whole number of years between the cessation of Hamstard and the beginning of Parson's game development during which he did... something else... or there's a deliberate continuity there and him referencing anything less than six years old is a plot hole.


    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WebcomicTime

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 89
     Post Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:34 am 
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    Parson isn't making these references himself, however.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 89
     Post Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:54 am 
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    Beeskee wrote:
    Parson isn't making these references himself, however.

    Which begs the question... what is?

    Not just 'Charlie', but let's go a bit deeper than that.

    If we look at Erfworld as a simulator, there's got to be at least one more intelligent being around to MAKE said references. I could see a really creepy conversation between Parson and Charlie...

    "Cute Joker face, but he never had scars at the corners of his lips. This world must be slipping."

    "Oh sure, it's just Heath Leger's Joker from Batman: Dark Knight."

    "What? No, Mark Hamil was Joker, and there was never a Dark Knight movie."

    "Well, you never did get a chance to see it. It was... what... July of '06 when you got popped here? It didn't show until 2010"

    "Okay... I know you love playing headgames, Charlie, but that's quite a reach, doncha think?"

    "What, did you really think time wouldn't march on? But you know what? Heath Leger killed himself after finishing the movie. Kinda makes it even more creepy, don't it?"

    "Is there a point to this, Charlie?"

    "You were the one questioning my avatar, Parson. I was just answering your question. Free of charge, even."

    "Then why... what is it about Erfworld that makes it meme central?"

    "Oh, that's quite an expensive question to answer. A better question might be: what meme are YOU? Are you Ender? Or just some fat kid singing 'Numa Numa'?"

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 89
     Post Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:26 am 
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    Beeskee wrote:
    Parson isn't making these references himself, however.

    No, Rob is, for your enjoyment and delight, not to mention plot development. Sometimes a joke is just a joke . . .

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 89
     Post Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:36 am 
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    shneekeythelost wrote:
    If we look at Erfworld as a simulator, there's got to be at least one more intelligent being around to MAKE said references.


    I'm going with Rob.

    As for my own epilleptic twee, I'm beginning to wonder if Charlie had very ambitious plans that he put a bit too much faith in. He had earlier expressed interest in killing an attuned, and now has clearly revealed that he wants Parson gone as well. If he didn't anticipate Parson's actions, then he might have thought that Wanda would be taken care of with Kingworld, and (speculation) Stanley and Parson would be taken care of with a natural ally-uprising.

    Jojo would then have only been in place to ensure that Parson didn't escape into TMK like so many casters before him. If the rest of GK were gone, then Parson would almost certainly have taken a chance with that scroll, having nobody to stick around for.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 89
     Post Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:46 pm 
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    I guess that depends if you think the Hamstard website is completely canon or not, including dates, or just a neat little tie in for people to come across. Either way I think limiting references to before 2006/7 because Parson wasn't there is too minor.

    Or if you prefer the Watsonian explanation and need some Fan Wank to cover it, when Wanda was looking for a world in which there was a Perfect Warlord who would find things safe and familiar, she wasn't limited by time - so she saw the past, future etc of our world both before and after.

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    MarbitChow wrote:
    Don't you get it yet? WE ARE THE MAGIC KINGDOM.
    We're the people sitting around discussing our pet theories based on nomenclature, citing references, discussing ad nauseum while Parson finds out how it works.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 89
     Post Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:14 pm 
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    Wait.... So if Charlie was wanting to get Parson and the Mathemancy Bracer on his side, what happened to make him want to kill Parson now?

    This reeks of a ploy to manipulate Parson into a position that benefits Charlie. I doubt that the Archons had access most of Charlie's really good secrets, so Charlie just lost a few minor trade secrets that could easily be campaigned away. Having Parson working for Charlescomm would be a literal goose that lays golden eggs. Charlescomm would be able to maximize how much to charge customers, determine ahead of time which side to back in any given situation, and calculate which strategy would provide the maximum gain. And now Charlie is just gonna give that up over a few trade secrets that may at some point get out?

    If Charlie managed to get Parson AND the 'pliers? 0 upkeep Archons and Superarchons? Collect your army from the fallen of any given side of a conflict, allowing you to pick and choose the best combination of free units?

    This seems more like Charlie knows that Spacerock is doomed and cannot beat Parson. But he also needs a way to pry Parson away from tGMtTA, which means he needs to get through that portal before any more bad news for Charlie can enter his mind. Manipulate Slately into getting Parson through the portal through whatever manipulation of the laws of Erfworld is needed to maintain MK's neutrality. Given Parson's outburst concerning the Sword of Ruthlessness, it seems the best carrot for him would be to set him up where it's a free trade of services -- Parson perform calculations for Charlie, and Charlie gives Parson whatever it is that he wants.... knowledge of Erfworld mechanics, a Foolamancer to run simulations, a surprise visit from a willing Archon after turn's end, freedom to come and go as he chooses (so long as he is still reachable via thinkagrams in case a calculation is needed), a magick item that blocks thinkamancy so that Parson knows that he is not under anyone's 'control', etc.

    Whatever the case, having Slately 'kill the fat man' is way too direct for what we have seen of Charlie so far. Especially if Slately has a sudden brilliant idea to win this battle shortly after that thinkspace with Charlie. Plus, Charlie has been doing a lot of stuff free of charge recently. Even a wounded tiger doesn't act that contrary to its nature. He's probably manipulating Jillian, Don, Ceasar, Bunny, half of MK, and now Slately, into some longterm plan to have Parson on his side.

    Charlie already knows that Parson is too dangerous to try to coerce by force. Send in twice as many Archons as is needed to take GK's airspace, and you lose all of them in one move. Instead, start setting up a lot of pressure from multiple sides all trying to force Parson into some grand destiny, and then offer him a much more pleasant alternative where he has a sense of control over his actions.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 89
     Post Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:16 pm 
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    AllPurposeNerd wrote:
    TheTuna wrote:
    Erfworlders don't say "kill".


    Eh. I think the use of kill is less a clue about who he is and more in service of the reference joke. Further, him referencing shapes and names from our world doesn't mean he's consciously stealing them. Erfworld itself is made of reference humor that its inhabitants don't get.

    What's more interesting to me is the number of references to things that occurred after Parson was summoned.


    Na. Every time there is a reference, it is adapted either by censoring or cuteified. This time it was not adapted to erfworld parlance when all other references were, ergo there must be a reason, either deliberate or accidental on the author's part. I'm going to assume it is deliberate unless I see a retcon in a few days. It could still be stylistic, but I doubt it.

    Since everyone always uses insights to justify existing theories, I'm going to throw a twist out instead.

    The reference to kill is not a Charlie-is-from-stupid-world reference, or just a leftover reference joke. It is an acknowledgement from Charlie that Parson is a player even if he doesn't have his own side yet.

    Units croak, Players die. Parson already declared himself a player. And in theory the world was recognizing him as such when his personal censor filter was lifted. This is the first reference of another Player recognizing Parson as a player.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 89
     Post Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:19 pm 
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    cheeseaholic wrote:
    Well, if we assume that he was taken right about the time that the comic started (and I think the Hamstard comics end), then I'm wrong and there's not an ongoing connection between the worlds, but the joker reference is something that hasn't happened yet in Stupidworld. Which sort of goes towards the idea that Erfworld made Stupidworld. But since time isn't exactly easy to determine in Erfworld that's not necessarily the case. Or any number of other possible explanations. But still it's interesting.

    Stupidworld only has ordered time if you have a point in space to measure it from. There is no reason to believe that a stupid world event is "before" or "after" a Erfworld event in any meaningful way.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 89
     Post Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:01 pm 
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    Charlie knows the word "kill". It was in Klog #13 seen here: http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F116a.jpg

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 89
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:45 am 
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    shneekeythelost wrote:
    "Oh, that's quite an expensive question to answer. A better question might be: what meme are YOU? Are you Ender? Or just some fat kid singing 'Numa Numa'?"
    I like this. Regardless of whether Parson turns out to be either Ender or the Numa Numa guy. :lol:

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 89
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:09 pm 
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    Lamech wrote:
    Stupidworld only has ordered time if you have a point in space to measure it from. There is no reason to believe that a stupid world event is "before" or "after" a Erfworld event in any meaningful way.


    The second is true. The first... what? Timelike separation of events is possible in a fully relativistic framework. You do not need to restrict yourself to a particular reference frame. Unless you're noting that you need to exist to perform measurements, in which case... yeah, so? Parson existed. Things after him couldn't well seem safe and familiar. Memory breaks time reversal symmetry.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 89
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:01 pm 
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    As the king, can Slately invite Parson through the portal?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 89
     Post Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 1:04 am 
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    This may be the first time anyone other than Parson has used the word kill, but Wanda certainly seemed to understand it. And while she may have learned it from him off screen or when seeing into his mind, the same could just as easily be true of Charlie.

    If it wasn't for Charlie's help, Ansom would still be alive. Think about it, if not for Charlie's intervention, Parson wouldn't have been forced to use the Bogroll gambit or to press the button marked 'death'. And while I think it's safe to say that Ansom would have defeated without Charlie's help, fact is, he couldn't have been defeated more completely than he ultimately was and Gobwin Knob could not have hoped to have been strengthened more. Similarly, Ossomer and Slately would still be alive if not for Charlie's bounty.

    Going back to the 'twice' thing, the trouble with blackmailing Haggard being the save, is that he did it in such a way as to make the fight against Gobwin Knob harder. That is to say, that as a result of Ansom's capture Jetstone were tempted into wasting forces they desperately needed (probably including a Warlord or two) against the column. And worse (the promotion of a Chief Warlord within the hex) was only avoided as a result of Maggie's treachery. The first may be passed off as Jetstone's mistake, but the latter... Perhaps he means the delay in the Magick Kingdom, it's possible that Parson would have beat the Thinkawitches to the portal if not for Charlie's agent.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 89
     Post Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 5:01 am 
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    oslecamo2_temp wrote:
    Good to see Trems back into "herp What have you done saving the side from my family's own stupidity? derp"


    I took Trem's statement as obviously "Why were you idiot casters buffing Father for an engagement instead of getting him the heck out of there like I ordered?" Hence Lloyd's comment, backed up by Ace, that the King insisted on fighting no matter what.

    Under normal circumstances King Slately would not fight, so Trem would naturally think that if it hadn't been for the buffing, and perhaps even a plan suggested by the casters, the King would have run. He knows that Ace is always eager to show off uses for his toys, but expected better of Lloyd.

    That is how I read it, especially with the casters' defensive reactions. Trem isn't being dumb at all; he just didn't expect his father to act out of character and insist on standing and fighting with no encouragement and even some discouragement.

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