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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 88
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:00 am 
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Biostar wrote:
Lamech wrote:
Otherwise why would Charlie need to call?

Charlie is probably just calling now because he knows Clonely collected the bounty or is trying to be quick to collect his Archon before the double fades.


Or because he sees now is the right time. The decrypted archons are all gone, so the rationale for the bounty is fullfilled and the prince is healed, so there is a use for the bounty. (Why give them money as long as the prince is not yet healed and would have died with the end of the turn?)

Also the next action is to reclaim the garrison. As long as their is no heir, they have two important units they cannot use for that. Once the newly promoted heir flees the city, Slately can take an effective role in there (as he has shown he can in the air battle). As he is expendable now anyway, why not give him the chance to earn a place in the city of Heros (two tickets better than one).

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 88
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 12:05 pm 
    E is for Erfworld Supporter Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter This user was a Tool before it was cool This user is a Tool! Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
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    0beron wrote:
    I don't believe so, at least it has never been mentioned. Either you're up, or you're croaked. Incapacitation is a special label that applies to a variety of special cases.


    Things became Incapacitated when they reach exactly 0 hits. It happens rarely because it's a thin threshold to fall under.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 88
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 12:25 pm 
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    Hmm...why can the archon cast while in that net?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 88
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 1:05 pm 
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    Zeroberon wrote:
    Well it has already been stated that falling has essentially random outcomes. Height factors in marginally, but the chance of being croaked, incapacitated, or 100% ok are the same for any fall.
    That second sentence of yours is rather interesting, Zero. So, height factors in, but the chances are still the same, you say? :lol:
    asparagus wrote:
    MarbitChow wrote:
    asparagus wrote:
    There's also the problem that with a King's double, a chief warlord, and several casters why is Cubbins needed for leadership?
    He's not. But as one of the few remaining units left in the garrison (the main force is in the city right now), if he dies, the garrison falls, and if the garrison falls, all remaining units in the city are auto-captured.
    Thanks. That's actually a lot clearer. I seem to be a bit slower now than I used to be.
    No, you're not slow. The premise is just flawed. Let's see, Cubbins is alive and if he dies the garrison may fall. Let's go rescue Cubbins! Or perhaps, the garrison is about to fall, so let's just go keep that from happening. Because that's the important thing, right? Rescuing Cubbins becomes quite moot once you shove enough troops into the garrison to prevent it from falling, no? And, if you "rescue" Cubbins and remove him from the garrison, what was the point of the rescue again? To keep a living Jetstone unit in the garrison? Which you accomplished by shoving those units into the garrison, and not by rescuing Cubbins.

    At least Tremm only says "I need to organize a charge" and not "I need to rescue Cubbins." Because shoving strength into the garrison needs to be the goal, not rescuing an unconscious and out of juice caster. That would be a waste of time which could cost the very existence of the side.
    sheepfly wrote:
    But an alliance? When Parson has a hard enough time controlling people within his OWN side who already trust him & recognize him as the Perfect Warlord? No booping way.
    I'm not sure I understand why this is such a topic for discussion.

    Alliance is what GK is actively seeking. It's only because other sides refuse that they are conquering. Both Unaroyal and Jetstone have been offered alliance by GK, so why is it hard to understand that GK still wants and will actively seek alliances?
    Salem wrote:
    I'm not sure exactly how hits work but isn't there a number of hits a unit can take that makes them incapacitated rather than dead?
    Zeroberon wrote:
    I don't believe so, at least it has never been mentioned. Either you're up, or you're croaked. Incapacitation is a special label that applies to a variety of special cases.
    C'mon? Really? So Zero, all the images of injured characters are just fluff, and they are still 100% healthy and in no way actually injured? You really believe that?
    Lamech wrote:
    Also I do believe that Ansom is king already. Otherwise why would Charlie need to call?
    And again....Really? You actually believe this? Did you somehow miss King Slately using the natural thinkamancy that comes only with being the king of a side to determine that Cubbins was the only warlord/commander in the garrison?
    wrecan wrote:
    Stanley is pompous and egocentric, but he doesn't think Tool-attunement replaces Nobility.
    Aaaaaand yet again... Really? Yes, he does believe exactly that. He believes that attunement to a Tool of the Titans demonstrates a direct mandate from the Titans and is a far superior mandate than simply being popped as royalty can claim. Re-read Book 1 page 32 and page 33.
    Kaed wrote:
    Things became Incapacitated when they reach exactly 0 hits. It happens rarely because it's a thin threshold to fall under.
    There are other cases. Incapacitated due to dwagon bubblegum. Incapacitated due to having a dead dwagon pin you beneath it. Incapacitation due to being in a net. Probably a number of other ways to be incapacitated that we simply haven't seen yet. All of those do not have to involve being at zero health.
    Spiky wrote:
    Hmm...why can the archon cast while in that net?
    Why do you think that the archon cast while in that net?

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    Zeroberon wrote:
    So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 88
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 1:37 pm 
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    Oberon wrote:
    Lamech wrote:
    Also I do believe that Ansom is king already. Otherwise why would Charlie need to call?
    And again....Really? You actually believe this? Did you somehow miss King Slately using the natural thinkamancy that comes only with being the king of a side to determine that Cubbins was the only warlord/commander in the garrison?
    He had that while the actual king was still alive. (Otherwise it would have been obvious he was a dupe.) So obviously the dupe can have it while their is an actual king. More to the point the archon believes that they have won. That isn't the case if Clonely can still declare a heir.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 88
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 3:30 pm 
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    Lamech wrote:
    Oberon wrote:
    Lamech wrote:
    Also I do believe that Ansom is king already. Otherwise why would Charlie need to call?
    And again....Really? You actually believe this? Did you somehow miss King Slately using the natural thinkamancy that comes only with being the king of a side to determine that Cubbins was the only warlord/commander in the garrison?
    He had that while the actual king was still alive. (Otherwise it would have been obvious he was a dupe.) So obviously the dupe can have it while their is an actual king. More to the point the archon believes that they have won. That isn't the case if Clonely can still declare a heir.
    Did you actually read the latest comic? Take a closer look at panels 1-3, and then panel 10. If you pay attention, you'll see the clone-king using the natural thinkamancy of a king to determine that Cubbins is alive and present in the garrison, buried under debris and incapacitated. How else would panel 3 even make sense? And then in panel 10 you'll see that the actual king is dead, as described by both the archon and confirmed by Tremm. So yeah, the clone king had that ability while the actual king was alive. But he still has it now. Quite obviously, in fact. But perhaps I shouldn't use the word "obviously" in the face of your capability to misinterpret events clearly demonstrated.

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    Zeroberon wrote:
    So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 88
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 4:25 pm 
    This user was a Tool before it was cool This user is a Tool! Here for the 10th Anniversary
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    I move that we not use the term 'obvious' or any of its derivations. Forum proves time and again that nothing is truly obvious until it is spelled out explicitly in a way that offers no interpretations. Even then, someone is going to make an argument otherwise.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 88
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 4:51 pm 
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    Oberon wrote:
    So yeah, the clone king had that ability while the actual king was alive. But he still has it now. Quite obviously, in fact. But perhaps I shouldn't use the word "obviously" in the face of your capability to misinterpret events clearly demonstrated.

    ...Would you mind pointing to the place where I argued he lacked natural thinkamancy? Please quote it. Pro-tip: This request is impossible.

    Okay as I understand your logic your arguing that because Clonely has natural thinkamancy there is no other king. Right? That argument is faulty. See this rough proof:
    Assumption: Clonely having natural thinkamancy means there is no other king.
    Clonely had natural thinkamancy when there was an other king. This contradicts the assumption.
    Therefore the assumption is wrong. QED. A clone can have natural thinkamancy while not being the only king.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 88
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 6:05 pm 
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    Oberon wrote:
    Incapacitation due to being in a net.


    If putting someone in a net causes the "croak at end of turn" special effect, it would be a terrible choice for moving captured units around.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 88
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 6:10 pm 
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    Jinren wrote:
    Oberon wrote:
    Incapacitation due to being in a net.
    If putting someone in a net causes the "croak at end of turn" special effect, it would be a terrible choice for moving captured units around.
    There are a number of different types of incapacitation, only some of which result in croaking at the end of turn.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 88
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:14 pm 
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    Owww... this last page and a half of this forum made me facepalm so many times that now I'm concussed and can't remember who was right and wrong. I'm going with you're all wrong. By way of evidence I cite Europe and Jello-shots. They aren't a strong argument for you all being wrong, but they are difficult to refute.

    I think I mostly agree with Oberon here... though I can't claim I understand the counter arguments well enough to comment on them... not for lack of trying, mind you.

    Re: incapacitation. Blanket assertions about how the rules work with no citations aren't helpful, peeps. Everyone seems to have their own opinions about what exactly the term incapacitation means. I'm pretty sure we only know that the terms applies to falling victims. We have also seen other people get KO'd in various ways (such as Trammenis goo and Jillian getting facepunched by a dwagon), but we don't know whether the term incapacitated can be correctly applied to them (to my knowledge, but please enlighten me).

    Rob, be afraid... even the people that obsess about your comic can't tell what is going on D:

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 88
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:38 pm 
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    Oberon wrote:
    Zeroberon wrote:
    Well it has already been stated that falling has essentially random outcomes. Height factors in marginally, but the chance of being croaked, incapacitated, or 100% ok are the same for any fall.
    That second sentence of yours is rather interesting, Zero. So, height factors in, but the chances are still the same, you say? :lol:
    You're nit-picking semantics when you know what I meant, so I'll indulge you and rephrase "The chance of the 3 outcomes is largely the same for any fall, marginally influenced by height but not much". And in either case, I was since corrected that the 3 outcomes are "Damaged" "Instantly Croaked" or "Incapacitated".

    Oberon wrote:
    Zeroberon wrote:
    I don't believe so, at least it has never been mentioned. Either you're up, or you're croaked. Incapacitation is a special label that applies to a variety of special cases.
    C'mon? Really? So Zero, all the images of injured characters are just fluff, and they are still 100% healthy and in no way actually injured? You really believe that?
    And once again you take my comment out of it's proper context. I meant "When it comes to hits, either you have them and are up (which means you can still be injured yes) or your are down." A unit with only 1 Hit remaining would look very injured, but they are still "up". Kaed contradicts me on this, as he believes incapacitation occurs at 0 hits exactly, and croaking only happens when they take negative hits, but I do not see this in the text where incapacitation is mentioned.

    Like I said in brief before, "Incapacitated" is a lump label that can occur from a variety of sources, the text explicitly states in various locations that there is nearly no uniform set of attributes that follow it. Sometimes the unit has 0 hits, sometimes not. But like I said above, I do not recall a reference that states being reduced to exactly 0 hits from normal damage CAUSES incapacitation.

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    Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
    There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 88
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 9:05 pm 
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    Oberon wrote:
    Spiky wrote:
    Hmm...why can the archon cast while in that net?
    Why do you think that the archon cast while in that net?

    Picture of dead king hovering in the air for all to see.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 88
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 9:18 pm 
    E is for Erfworld Supporter Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter Year of the Dwagon Supporter Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
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    Spiky wrote:
    Oberon wrote:
    Spiky wrote:
    Hmm...why can the archon cast while in that net?
    Why do you think that the archon cast while in that net?
    Picture of dead king hovering in the air for all to see.

    That would be an inset panel.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 88
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 9:36 pm 
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    Guess so.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 88
     Post Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:17 am 
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    I'm getting a pretty sickening 9/11 vibe from all this tower business. Of course there's no connection... I don't know, I just somehow can't help but connect the imagery. Sorry if that makes me the resident downer... :(

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 88
     Post Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:21 am 
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    Lamech wrote:
    Clonely had natural thinkamancy when there was an other king. This contradicts the assumption.


    I fail to see the evidence behind this. Care to explain?

    This still doesn't explain why Ansom isn't taking advantage of being king.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 88
     Post Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:31 am 
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    effataigus wrote:
    Owww... this last page and a half of this forum made me facepalm so many times that now I'm concussed and can't remember who was right and wrong. I'm going with you're all wrong. By way of evidence I cite Europe and Jello-shots. They aren't a strong argument for you all being wrong, but they are difficult to refute.


    Oh dear. You mean that

    Spoiler: show
    Image


    But surely a better approach would be

    Spoiler: show
    Image


    or maybe

    Spoiler: show
    Image


    What can I say, I think that

    Spoiler: show
    Image

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 88
     Post Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:37 pm 
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    Biostar wrote:
    Lamech wrote:
    Clonely had natural thinkamancy when there was an other king. This contradicts the assumption.


    I fail to see the evidence behind this. Care to explain?

    This still doesn't explain why Ansom isn't taking advantage of being king.

    Well Clonely popped, but never realized he wasn't king. It would have been pretty obvious if lacked the natural thinkamancy.

    As to your second question: Why would Ansom start disbanding important Jetstone units at random? So far exactly one other warlord has shown any initiative (Sylvia) and she actually has info on the ground. Plus if Ansom disbands them, Gk doesn't get anything back. Also disbanding the units to win the war will seal the portal; right now, the second Maggie calls Ansom he can "hire" the whole pack of GK casters and get them out of the MK.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 88
     Post Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:40 pm 
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    Lamech wrote:
    ...Would you mind pointing to the place where I argued he lacked natural thinkamancy? Please quote it. Pro-tip: This request is impossible.
    Fine, you wriggle off on a technicality. You didn't come out and say that cloney didn't have natural thinkamancy.

    You said you believed that Ansom was the king. If Ansom is the king, cloney isn't. Cloney used the rulers only ability to locate Cubbins. Thus, cloney is the king and Ansom is not.

    And please, if you even try to claim that cloney would retain all of the abilities of a duplicate king when somehow the rulership has passed to Ansom, just don't. By your own argument, cloney had to have the natural thinkamancy while Slately was alive in order to pass as the king. For cloney to retain rulership only capabilities while Ansom is king would just as obviously identify him as a duplicate.

    And thus, by your own arguments, Ansom is not the king.
    Lamech wrote:
    Okay as I understand your logic your arguing that because Clonely has natural thinkamancy there is no other king. Right? That argument is faulty. See this rough proof:
    Assumption: Clonely having natural thinkamancy means there is no other king.
    Clonely had natural thinkamancy when there was an other king. This contradicts the assumption.
    Therefore the assumption is wrong. QED. A clone can have natural thinkamancy while not being the only king.
    Your proof is flawed in that is is internally inconstant. You want the "must have rulership abilities to pass for real" at the same time as you want those same abilities, if they continue on past the passing of the rulership to Ansom, to reveal the duplication. And before you say it, no you didn't say the second sentence. It is inherent in your argument that Ansom is now the king.
    You start with a flawed assumption, therefore you arrive at a flawed conclusion.

    I do make a couple assumptions here and could be proven wrong. But I like my odds better than the chances that a decrypted unit in thrall to Wanda and the GK side who is also a captured unit of a third side can suddenly become king of Jetstone. Or of anything at all.

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    Zeroberon wrote:
    So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.

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