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 Post Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:48 pm 
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I thought love trap too. Also if Wanda is the one who comes in once the trap is in *ahem* effect, that would be an appropriate starting place for the special relationship those two share.

It also would fit in with Haffaton's MO and explain how they manage this. Maybe the aim is always just to incapacitate the enemy long enough to deploy whatever tricks they'll use to defeat it, a city changing hands is basically free instantaneous information on enemy positioning _providing_ you have some method of keeping them occupied before the city is raised.

I think the trap might not as quickly turn in her favour as has been suggested here though. Haffaton are a side who'd want to get information out of a target and try to turn a powerful warlord, at the very least understand the position fully and manipulate them into a place where there's no longer a favourable alternative. So they could either go for the peace trick like before or kill the squad and capture Jill for turning. Then Wanda has time to meet, get her sexy on, maybe a little captive/captor relations and then be turned (from the low loyalty) and strike Haffatons capital who've been relying on Wanda's forces too much or something

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     Post Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:39 pm 
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    We were shown an archon veiling herself just recently. The doll might be Wanda (it would be an easy veil because the illusion is almost identical to the real thing, except that the doll is dead, but Wanda is a croakamancer), or not. Maybe it'd be a little too straightforward for a story like this, though.

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     Post Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:24 pm 
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    I don't think it could be an elaborate foolamancy trap.

    1) They'd have to know FAQ's banner to fake it waving from the tower. How would they know that in advance?
    2) The door has to open when Jillian COMMANDS it to open. And she commands by natural thinkamancy. Somebody would have to be watching every thought of Jillian's to see when exactly she commands the door to open and make it open or appear to open at just the right time. If it were that sort of trap, all the doors would probably be naturally unlocked so as not to raise suspicion.
    3) I bet that Haffaton did NOT get to be a dominant side by leaving casters alone and unprotected and captured in cities that were taken by forces of unknown sides and unknown strength. Remember, whoever's in that city is now a prisoner. Maybe they have shackles like those in bohica.

    If there is a trap, it'll be a trap where, true to form, Haffaton wins by not fighting. I think the Love Trap (baby, Love Trap) fits the bill.

    Leave a token force to protect against lone barbarians.
    If a real force invades, they'll take the city but get romantically bogged down and end turn there.
    This allows Haffaton to come up next turn with a large uncroaked army and politely tell them that they should surrender because they're so outnumbered, and how they'll be gently treated and returned to their side in exchange for a non-aggression pact and a large ransom and whatever else.

    Net result - the only casualties are plants and zombies, Haffaton gains whatever they can negotiate for in exchange for the return of the army. So perfectly Haffaton style.

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     Post Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:15 pm 
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    ftl wrote:
    If there is a trap, it'll be a trap where, true to form, Haffaton wins by not fighting. I think the Love Trap (baby, Love Trap) fits the bill.

    Yaaaaay, you said it right!


    Also this update raises a new area of speculation. Jillian orders her troops to go hunting for spoils in the castle before they (plan to) raze it to the ground for the Schmuckers. Makes me wonder what kind of spoils there might be! Obviously provisions, so that's a bonus, but there's also the thought of possible weapons and armour in the armoury. Cities no doubt spawn basic gear, ammunition for ranged fighters, and whatnot. I wonder, is there also a chance that a randomly spawned item will be magical, possibly even an Artifact? We know of course that Dollamancers and Hat Magicians can make magical items, but can a randomly-spawned piece of gear have bonuses, in much the same way that a randomly-popped Warlord can be a Caster?

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     Post Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:16 am 
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    drachefly wrote:
    Oh, we could do that. It just turns out that no one wants a door that opens when you say 'open'. People might want a door that opens when you say 'open' to it, but that's a much harder problem.

    Exactly.

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     Post Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:20 am 
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    ftl wrote:
    1) They'd have to know FAQ's banner to fake it waving from the tower. How would they know that in advance?
    2) The door has to open when Jillian COMMANDS it to open. And she commands by natural thinkamancy. Somebody would have to be watching every thought of Jillian's to see when exactly she commands the door to open and make it open or appear to open at just the right time. If it were that sort of trap, all the doors would probably be naturally unlocked so as not to raise suspicion.
    3) I bet that Haffaton did NOT get to be a dominant side by leaving casters alone and unprotected and captured in cities that were taken by forces of unknown sides and unknown strength. Remember, whoever's in that city is now a prisoner. Maybe they have shackles like those in bohica.


    1) One is totally all you need to say that it's got to be impossible, unless they somehow knew about FAQ which would bring so many questions. So this eliminates the theory by the rule of ockham's razor I would say.

    2) The idea would be that the foolamancy gives them the mental view of controling the place, all the doors are open and they make themsleves see it opening through the foolamancy. I have noooo idea if that's possible at all, but it makes me think of illusions as used in popular fiction and table top games. Not necessarily war games mind.

    3) True that would be a bad idea, though I don't think for foolamancy to be part of the trap that a caster is required. Foolamancy would really help the love-love trap by getting everyone's guard down. But due to 1, I don't really think that is likely anymore.

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     Post Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:12 pm 
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    ftl wrote:
    1) They'd have to know FAQ's banner to fake it waving from the tower. How would they know that in advance?
    2) The door has to open when Jillian COMMANDS it to open. And she commands by natural thinkamancy. Somebody would have to be watching every thought of Jillian's to see when exactly she commands the door to open and make it open or appear to open at just the right time. If it were that sort of trap, all the doors would probably be naturally unlocked so as not to raise suspicion.
    3) I bet that Haffaton did NOT get to be a dominant side by leaving casters alone and unprotected and captured in cities that were taken by forces of unknown sides and unknown strength. Remember, whoever's in that city is now a prisoner. Maybe they have shackles like those in bohica.

    1) That is the real sticking point I think, still, it's not impossible for Haffaton have prior knowledge of Faq, I do recall Jillian worrying about that due to Haffaton's size and age.

    2) The door opened when Jillian turned the doorknob, the lights came on when she said 'lights'. Not exactly the hardest of things to arrange.

    3) We don't know what Level Wanda is at this point, she could be overwhelming considering the amount of conquering she's done. The wiki says she's Level Eight (Future Era) based on the bonus she gives to Decrypted, but if, as seems likely, that's an Artifact bonus, then all we can do is say 'high'. If there is a Haffaton Unit in the Garrison the City simply cannot have fallen, Haffaton will hold it until the last defender is Croaked or captured.

    All that said, I don't believe there are any Haffaton Units in the Garrison, I just think it could have been done.

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     Post Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:47 pm 
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    Whispri wrote:
    1) That is the real sticking point I think, still, it's not impossible for Haffaton have prior knowledge of Faq, I do recall Jillian worrying about that due to Haffaton's size and age.

    2) The door opened when Jillian turned the doorknob, the lights came on when she said 'lights'. Not exactly the hardest of things to arrange.

    3) We don't know what Level Wanda is at this point, she could be overwhelming considering the amount of conquering she's done. The wiki says she's Level Eight (Future Era) based on the bonus she gives to Decrypted, but if, as seems likely, that's an Artifact bonus, then all we can do is say 'high'. If there is a Haffaton Unit in the Garrison the City simply cannot have fallen, Haffaton will hold it until the last defender is Croaked or captured.

    All that said, I don't believe there are any Haffaton Units in the Garrison, I just think it could have been done.


    1) Aye, it's definetly possible they know of FAQ as a mercenary and have seen its livery that way. And they know faq is attacking through some mancy.

    2)Oh no I was agreeing, especially if a lot of it was just foolamancy, like illusions, most worlds that have illusions give the more powerful ones some form of interaction, whether responding in some way to their words or something so that they're not easily dispelleed. Considering that all that exists in their head, thinking and saying are the same thing essentially if the world allows illusions like that. And I imagine it does, so I definetly agree.

    Yeah I think it's possible depending on how thing goes, but I as well think it's unlikely.

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     Post Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 12:10 am 
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    Headdesk: Hey guys, if this was trapped wouldn't Haffaton style be poison? The love trap would work too, but poison would kill them outright. They could probably even make it a sleep poison to knock them out, but not kill. Then they can capture, harvest or croak at their leisure. That would be both simple and effective.

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     Post Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:34 am 
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    If so, the poison would more like be something subtle, most likely airborne, and delivered by something relatively innocuous appearing - like plants in little pots placed in the stairwell . . . Also, if they burned the plants outside (which would be the easiest way of clearing 'weeds', especially weeds that are shooting at you), the smoke could carry the poison, and if nothing else get the invaders so stoned they go rampaging through the city looking for the pantry. And, of course, since nothing there requires food, they could poison / drug the food with impunity, knowing that only an invader would consume it.

    I think the mannequin is actually a surveillance device feeding info to Haffaton, who are even now dispatching forces. The Love Trap (love trap, baby) is actually a Honey Pot trap, much like Pitcher Plants. They exude a sweet nectar on tendrils inside a chamber within the plant, and when an insect flies in to feast, it discovers that it can't get back out, and eventually winds up in the bottom of the chamber where it is dissolved and consumed.

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     Post Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:44 am 
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    I think everyone assumes the love trap because it's a lot more insidious. Being a war-game odds are any poison effect will not be 100% absolute, so a sleep trap, might leave enough people aware/awake to know what was going on and *maybe* do something about it. Conversely with a love trap people might think they're just high on victory over an easy picking against what they thought was the most powerful nation in their area.

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     Post Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 12:42 pm 
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    Lamech wrote:
    Headdesk: Hey guys, if this was trapped wouldn't Haffaton style be poison? The love trap would work too, but poison would kill them outright. They could probably even make it a sleep poison to knock them out, but not kill. Then they can capture, harvest or croak at their leisure. That would be both simple and effective.

    Oh sure, like I said on page one, Chip may be for the Chop (along with anyone he brings to the kitchens). Of course the thing about poison is, it doesn't require a strong army close at hand. That said, there's no reason they can't deploy poisoned food at the same time as the shag trap. Or any number of other traps, there could be weapons in the armoury straight out of Grimtooth's Traps. There could be buckets of unpleasent liquid poised above half open doors. Easily triggered spells that croak and uncroak. The sky's the limit.

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     Post Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 7:41 pm 
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    ftl wrote:
    I don't think it could be an elaborate foolamancy trap.


    Probably not.

    Quote:
    1) They'd have to know FAQ's banner to fake it waving from the tower. How would they know that in advance?


    Suggestion: You now see YOUR faction flag.

    Quote:
    2) The door has to open when Jillian COMMANDS it to open. And she commands by natural thinkamancy. Somebody would have to be watching every thought of Jillian's to see when exactly she commands the door to open and make it open or appear to open at just the right time. If it were that sort of trap, all the doors would probably be naturally unlocked so as not to raise suspicion.


    Suggestion: Doors may be attuned to be open by anyone, not just the owners.

    Quote:
    If there is a trap, it'll be a trap where, true to form, Haffaton wins by not fighting. I think the Love Trap (baby, Love Trap) fits the bill.


    Better. Though I was thinking...poisoned provisions myself. Or delayed poison from the plants.

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     Post Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 5:26 pm 
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    I still can't buy the trap idea. I couldn't buy it when they were outside the city, and I can't buy it now.

    There's an idea in astronomy and cosmology called the "principle of mediocrity". Stated simply, Earth is not special. We are not the center of the universe, we are not somehow unique. Earth is a normal planet orbiting a normal Main Sequence star in a normal part of a normal galaxy. It was first stated by Copernicus, and has been carried forward since that time. The primary reason for believing the principle of mediocrity is the sheer size of the universe. Out of something so vastly huge that we really can't even correctly conceptualize it, why are we something more than average?

    That's why I can't buy into the idea that this city is specially trapped. It's a random city in back-boop swamp country in the oft stated huge Side of Haffaton. Why would it be trapped? Either all Haffaton's cities are trapped like this, in which case it's not special, or the overwhelming size of Haffaton dictates that the most likely city when selected at random is normal, and therefore not specially trapped.

    Traps require effort. The traps that we have seen previously in the comic were specially set up and took time and energy to do. Both the Volcano and Kingworld were made such a big deal of that it's obvious that they are not typical. The other traps we've heard about were specifically targeted: The one Caesar fell into was prepared by a Shockamancer just for that occasion, and the one at Megaton was designed to draw Goodminton's forces in so they could negotiate. Both required quite a bit of preparation by a skilled 'mancer. If we assume that all Haffaton's cities are trapped this way, that would require Olive to visit every city and spend time setting it up. Given that this is a random Level 2 in difficult terrain in the middle of nowhere, does it make sense to assume that she went that far out of her way to set up a trap in a city with little strategic value? Not to mention every other city in Haffaton's very large territory. I believe that Haffaton, like most Sides, would have better uses for their 'mancers.

    If then, all cities aren't trapped, why this one in particular? We have seen no evidence that they were spotted. We know Jillian could have sex with Chip. We've already seen that she needs no special motivation to fall into bed with someone. The reason she hasn't "convert[ed] her new warlord into a temporary mount unit" is a lack of opportunity to do it without trail drama. Now she's exploring a tower that she has a legitimate reason to explore and a legitimate reason to have backup that happens to have bedrooms in it. Means, motive, opportunity.

    If we consider metaplot, sure it might be trapped. However, given what we know about Jillian, she doesn't need anything special to get into trouble. She practically carries trouble with her. So there's really no additional metaplot reason for the city to be trapped. Sometimes a Dollamancer's mannequin is just a Dollamancer's mannequin.

    tl;dr: Why trap a random city? We've had no indication that this is special, or that there is motivation to trap it.

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     Post Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 6:42 pm 
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    Housellama wrote:
    tl;dr: Why trap a random city? We've had no indication that this is special, or that there is motivation to trap it.

    Because it's a cheap and effective method of defending the City, Haffaton have no reason not to have covered Diecast, or indeed any other City the possess in traps. You vastly overestimate the amount of effort involved. And if they have a Dwagon relay equivalent...

    And that before considering simple bad luck on the part of the WRECD.

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     Post Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:02 pm 
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    Whispri wrote:
    Housellama wrote:
    tl;dr: Why trap a random city? We've had no indication that this is special, or that there is motivation to trap it.

    Because it's a cheap and effective method of defending the City, Haffaton have no reason not to have covered Diecast, or indeed any other City the possess in traps. You vastly overestimate the amount of effort involved. And if they have a Dwagon relay equivalent...

    And that before considering simple bad luck on the part of the WRECD.


    Methinks your definition of "cheap and effective" is different than mine.

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     Post Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:16 pm 
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    Housellama wrote:
    Out of something so vastly huge that we really can't even correctly conceptualize it, why are we something more than average?

    The Anthropic Principle. The odds of intelligent life existing here, given that intelligent life is here to ask this question, is 100%. That tells us nothing of the odds of intelligent life on a terrestrial planet in general.


    Housellama wrote:
    That's why I can't buy into the idea that this city is specially trapped. It's a random city in back-boop swamp country in the oft stated huge Side of Haffaton. Why would it be trapped? Either all Haffaton's cities are trapped like this, in which case it's not special, or the overwhelming size of Haffaton dictates that the most likely city when selected at random is normal, and therefore not specially trapped.

    Agreed unequivocally. The presumed case is that, if this city is trapped, it would be only because such traps are standard on Haffaton backwaters.

    Quote:
    The traps that we have seen previously in the comic were specially set up and took time and energy to do. [...] If we assume that all Haffaton's cities are trapped this way, that would require Olive to visit every city and spend time setting it up.

    Well "seen previously in the comic" is kinda biased. We can assume that any trap on Diecast would have been practical to set up, because it wouldn't have been put there if it wasn't. In a way, this is the anthropic principle at work again.


    Quote:
    Given that this is a random Level 2 in difficult terrain in the middle of nowhere, does it make sense to assume that she went that far out of her way to set up a trap in a city with little strategic value?

    Every city had to be the center of attention at least once, when it was conquered. Installing traps could be just be part of usual consolidation for Haffaton. And any time Olive and/or Wanda isn't needed at the front, she can tour the country renewing/buffing up the traps on cities.


    Quote:
    I believe that Haffaton, like most Sides, would have better uses for their 'mancers.

    Well, when short-turn gains are needed, yeah there's a lot better things they could do. But I can't think of much that would have as great a long-term effect as this.



    Housellama wrote:
    Whispri wrote:
    Housellama wrote:
    tl;dr: Why trap a random city? We've had no indication that this is special, or that there is motivation to trap it.

    Because it's a cheap and effective method of defending the City, Haffaton have no reason not to have covered Diecast, or indeed any other City the possess in traps. You vastly overestimate the amount of effort involved. And if they have a Dwagon relay equivalent...

    And that before considering simple bad luck on the part of the WRECD.

    Methinks your definition of "cheap and effective" is different than mine.

    A simple alarm and reconnaissance device, maybe something to mire them up a bit, combined with a mobile reserve to counterattack invaders is all that is needed for an effective trap in this case. You can save the flashiness for later, there are plenty of practical (and economical) ways to trap a thing that don't involve blowing up a mountain or altering the natural order of things.

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     Post Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:29 pm 
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    Housellama wrote:
    Whispri wrote:
    Housellama wrote:
    tl;dr: Why trap a random city? We've had no indication that this is special, or that there is motivation to trap it.

    Because it's a cheap and effective method of defending the City, Haffaton have no reason not to have covered Diecast, or indeed any other City the possess in traps. You vastly overestimate the amount of effort involved. And if they have a Dwagon relay equivalent...

    And that before considering simple bad luck on the part of the WRECD.

    Methinks your definition of "cheap and effective" is different than mine.

    It's a moot point now, but the trouble was you were thinking in terms of drastic Erf shaking traps of doom (DESToD), when you should have been thinking of pit traps.

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