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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 80
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 1:58 pm 
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MarbitChow wrote:
j_scheibel wrote:
It actually begs the question why would any side ever end turn if they knew they were dead the next turn.

We know from the summer updates that time is relative in the hexes. If a turn never ends, only the units in the same hex as the ruler would perceive time stretching on infinitely. In that hex only, no wounds would ever heal, no juice would ever be restored, no new rations would ever pop. No one outside that hex would see anything amiss. Boredom and starvation eventually set in. First the mounts are eaten (but not nicely harvested - there's no next turn for the rations to pop in on), but when that runs out, cannibalism is next.


Says who? Erfworld units have no internal fluids or internal cavities. Conservation of mass and energy are jokes from Stupidworld at best. Nobody grows old. Wanda herself gives her rations to Jillian and is never penalized for it, despite the fact the only way she can get food is suposedly by ration pop ups. Twolls can regenerate in an extreme situation. But point is, altough we have several examples of celeratory feasts and snacks, we have none of units ever starving.


Then there's the much more simple proof that when Hamster claims he doesn't know anything about Erfworld but could learn it, Stanley explains they don't have time and ends turn shortly after. Why would he do that if he could extend the turn for some a bunch of hours just in return for a little hunger among his force at worst? If, again, Erfworld units can feel hunger at all whitout a turn actually passing.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 80
     Post Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 2:44 pm 
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    0beron wrote:
    drachefly wrote:
    Even without the crowd, when he tries to bring the captive BACK [through the MK], she'd croak and dust.

    I've actually been wondering about that myself....because Archons are lesser casters, could they pass through a Portal safely? Because I seriously doubt Charlie will venture into the MK, especially in these circumstances (and of course, assuming he even is a Caster, or stupid-worlder) but if any Decrypted Archons survive this battle I wonder if Parson will try this...

    Actually, archon's ability to enter MK might be the very secret Charlie wants to hide from everyone, since noone (neither MK casters nor other sides) will be happy to learn that. And we know war is coming to MK soon anyway...

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 80
     Post Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 4:29 pm 
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    elecampane wrote:
    0beron wrote:
    drachefly wrote:
    Even without the crowd, when he tries to bring the captive BACK [through the MK], she'd croak and dust.

    I've actually been wondering about that myself....because Archons are lesser casters, could they pass through a Portal safely? Because I seriously doubt Charlie will venture into the MK, especially in these circumstances (and of course, assuming he even is a Caster, or stupid-worlder) but if any Decrypted Archons survive this battle I wonder if Parson will try this...

    Actually, archon's ability to enter MK might be the very secret Charlie wants to hide from everyone, since noone (neither MK casters nor other sides) will be happy to learn that. And we know war is coming to MK soon anyway...

    They would probably just seal the portal from to Charlie's local. Also I doubt that would be a huge secret, people other than Charlie have archons, and there are tons of similar units: Goyles, Lofty Elves, High Elves, Witches.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 80
     Post Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 4:36 pm 
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    oslecamo2_temp wrote:
    Says who? Erfworld units have no internal fluids or internal cavities. Conservation of mass and energy are jokes from Stupidworld at best. Nobody grows old. Wanda herself gives her rations to Jillian and is never penalized for it, despite the fact the only way she can get food is suposedly by ration pop ups. Twolls can regenerate in an extreme situation. But point is, altough we have several examples of celeratory feasts and snacks, we have none of units ever starving.

    Says common sense. The idea that they lack internal fluids is nonsense, blood cannot circulate if it doesn't exist, note also Wanda's tears. Erfworlds obviously have internal cavities else they wouldn't be able to breath or eat. If Wanda (or some other girl) was somehow able to avoid the start of Turn resets (perhaps by being passed from Side to Side three or four times a day) there's no reason to think she wouldn't start to cycle.

    It's true that Magic kicks Science in the balls in Erfworld, but that does not mean Science doesn't exist to be so kicked. As far as aging goes, I will point out that ten thousand Turns would be less than thirty years and we have no Units confirmed to be even that old. It's true that Wanda has skipped the occasional meal on screen, but one missed meal does not result in instant starvation. And the idea that she felt no hunger as a result or indeed, failed to hit the larder (seriously, how on Erf can you claim she can only get food by popping it?) are entirely your inventions.

    Twolls do not regenerate, that special has long since been Retconjured away. And as for the lack of starvation, when have we ever seen Units run out of food? It's never happened and it may be impossilbe for it to happen. But why would they be provided with food if they didn't need it? And why would people eat at any other time, as they so often have, if they only hungered at the start of Turn? What reason is there to think that Erfworlders (leaving aside the Twolls and Vampires and so on) aren't biologically human (size aside assuming Stupidworlders like Parson aren't giants)?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 80
     Post Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 5:13 pm 
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    Whispri wrote:
    oslecamo2_temp wrote:
    Says who? Erfworld units have no internal fluids or internal cavities. Conservation of mass and energy are jokes from Stupidworld at best. Nobody grows old. Wanda herself gives her rations to Jillian and is never penalized for it, despite the fact the only way she can get food is suposedly by ration pop ups. Twolls can regenerate in an extreme situation. But point is, altough we have several examples of celeratory feasts and snacks, we have none of units ever starving.

    Says common sense.

    Common sense is for the weak in Erfworld, otherwise Hamster wouldnt have turned an utter defeat of his forces into an air assault by harvesting his own army.

    Whispri wrote:
    The idea that they lack internal fluids is nonsense, blood cannot circulate if it doesn't exist, note also Wanda's tears. Erfworlds obviously have internal cavities else they wouldn't be able to breath or eat. If Wanda (or some other girl) was somehow able to avoid the start of Turn resets (perhaps by being passed from Side to Side three or four times a day) there's no reason to think she wouldn't start to cycle.

    There's something Erfworlders call "blood" I'll admit that. But considering it doesn't flow out when you cut/impale someone multiple times, then it isn't anything even remotely close to our notion of blood. Eating is no reason for cavities, since they live in a world where stuff just pops in and out of existence all the time. Plus when they're cut in half, we don't see empty cavities on them.

    Whispri wrote:
    It's true that Magic kicks Science in the balls in Erfworld, but that does not mean Science doesn't exist to be so kicked.

    Again it's not only magic. Food pops in your table while upkeep and wastes disintegrate whitout a trace. Lost an eye? All healed up by morning, whitout any need of extra nutrients to replace lost stuff.

    Whispri wrote:
    As far as aging goes, I will point out that ten thousand Turns would be less than thirty years and we have no Units confirmed to be even that old. It's true that Wanda has skipped the occasional meal on screen, but one missed meal does not result in instant starvation. And the idea that she felt no hunger as a result or indeed, failed to hit the larder (seriously, how on Erf can you claim she can only get food by popping it?) are entirely your inventions.

    Where else are they geting the larder food again? Anyone actually working those fields? No farmers, no merchants, only soldiers and rulers and mages and monsters. Even wildlife literally pops out of nowhere.

    Whispri wrote:
    Twolls do not regenerate, that special has long since been Retconjured away. And as for the lack of starvation, when have we ever seen Units run out of food? It's never happened and it may be impossilbe for it to happen. But why would they be provided with food if they didn't need it? And why would people eat at any other time, as they so often have, if they only hungered at the start of Turn?

    For the same reason they have sex despite being unable to produce children. It gives them pleasure. But thanks for pointing out that retcon.

    Whispri wrote:
    What reason is there to think that Erfworlders (leaving aside the Twolls and Vampires and so on) aren't biologically human (size aside assuming Stupidworlders like Parson aren't giants)?

    They can't reproduce naturally, when they're cut they don't bleed, they don't age, they're basically animated toys with wills of their own (in diferent degrees, with basic troopers being almost single-minded and the rulers and top units being able for human-level philosophy and conspiration).

    EDIT:Main point is, there's no correlation to the energy and matter you expend in a day and the food you consume in Erfworld. Wheterver you were just lazing around or fought a series of massive battles and lost half your body, a base meal will get you trough for the whole turn, regardless of whatever you did that turn.

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    Last edited by oslecamo2 temp on Sat Jul 14, 2012 5:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 80
     Post Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 5:19 pm 
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    fractal wrote:
    Nnelg wrote:
    Oh, and about ranged units being overpowered? You just need to adjust your strategy. At the very least pit ranged against ranged so you can be on even footing.
    I don't know the game he's talking about, but if the best answer to ranged units is "more ranged units" then I think it's safe to say that they are overpowered.


    Don't be silly. There are four basic kinds of units here -

    Flying ranged
    Flying nonranged
    Grounded ranged
    Grounded nonranged

    The first of these is very very effective against the last.
    The second and third of these are very effective against the first.
    The last is effective against the second and third (especially the third)

    This is not a 'ranged > nonranged' situation, here.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 80
     Post Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 5:53 pm 
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    oslecamo2_temp wrote:
    EDIT:Main point is, there's no correlation to the energy and matter you expend in a day and the food you consume in Erfworld. Wheterver you were just lazing around or fought a series of massive battles and lost half your body, a base meal will get you trough for the whole turn, regardless of whatever you did that turn.

    If we absolutely grant your point that they won't starve, boredom and insanity become the main dangers. Units in that hex can never go anywhere new again. They will never meet anyone new, since no new units will ever pop. Any fight that creates any injury whatsoever will never heal, and note that Erfworlders assume that they can inflict all sorts of horrible body damage because it will be completely healed next turn.

    In this little pocket hex dimension, time stretches forever, until all of the inhabitants ultimately kill each other or themselves, or the ruler has enough and ends the turn. From the outside world's perspective, time passes normally, and no one ever finds out about this.

    The Magic Kingdom portals provide an escape clause for this; but then, maybe Kingworld isn't so unknown after all. Maybe the spell exists so that the Magic Kingdom (or even just a small conspiracy of predictamancers and turnamancers) ends the turn by force for those kingdoms that try to fight their fate in this manner. The only sides that ever see it happen, though, are the ones that are about to fall anyway, and dead men tell no tales...

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 80
     Post Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 7:34 pm 
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    MarbitChow wrote:
    oslecamo2_temp wrote:
    EDIT:Main point is, there's no correlation to the energy and matter you expend in a day and the food you consume in Erfworld. Wheterver you were just lazing around or fought a series of massive battles and lost half your body, a base meal will get you trough for the whole turn, regardless of whatever you did that turn.

    If we absolutely grant your point that they won't starve, boredom and insanity become the main dangers. Units in that hex can never go anywhere new again. They will never meet anyone new, since no new units will ever pop. Any fight that creates any injury whatsoever will never heal, and note that Erfworlders assume that they can inflict all sorts of horrible body damage because it will be completely healed next turn.

    In this little pocket hex dimension, time stretches forever, until all of the inhabitants ultimately kill each other or themselves, or the ruler has enough and ends the turn. From the outside world's perspective, time passes normally, and no one ever finds out about this.

    The Magic Kingdom portals provide an escape clause for this; but then, maybe Kingworld isn't so unknown after all. Maybe the spell exists so that the Magic Kingdom (or even just a small conspiracy of predictamancers and turnamancers) ends the turn by force for those kingdoms that try to fight their fate in this manner. The only sides that ever see it happen, though, are the ones that are about to fall anyway, and dead men tell no tales...
    Once again, a day is 24 hours. This cannot happen. Unless hex changing happens there is a mere 24 hours per hex. If you want to get more time you need to burn up a move. Since each side will have a limited number of move that can be used by any one unit each side only has a limited amount of time.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 80
     Post Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 7:43 pm 
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    This idea of time still confuses me immensely because there seems to be an impossible disconnect between the 12 hours of daylight and the fact that Rulers decide when to end turn. Assuming all units involved stay in a single hex, so we don't have to deal with the relativity issue, you can't tell me that a Ruler could do a multitude of things, and massive battles could take place in the hex that would take a WEEK in stupidworld....but still there are somehow only 12 hours that pass.

    I know that's what the text update SAYS....but it just can't be. By the very nature of the fact that a day does not end until all sides in the battlespace have taken and ended their respective turns, the day cannot consist of a finite time period. I really don't think that Rob has thought this out, because these two ideas that are stated as fact are mutually exclusive.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 80
     Post Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:07 pm 
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    0beron wrote:
    This idea of time still confuses me immensely because there seems to be an impossible disconnect between the 12 hours of daylight and the fact that Rulers decide when to end turn. Assuming all units involved stay in a single hex, so we don't have to deal with the relativity issue, you can't tell me that a Ruler could do a multitude of things, and massive battles could take place in the hex that would take a WEEK in stupidworld....but still there are somehow only 12 hours that pass.

    I know that's what the text update SAYS....but it just can't be. By the very nature of the fact that a day does not end until all sides in the battlespace have taken and ended their respective turns, the day cannot consist of a finite time period. I really don't think that Rob has thought this out, because these two ideas that are stated as fact are mutually exclusive.

    What battle that would have taken a week? What makes you say that night is twelve hours no more no less? Again, what makes you think that a side is allowed to draw out a turn for as long as possible? Can you give a specific scenario that you think is impossible?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 80
     Post Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:10 pm 
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    Lamech wrote:
    Once again, a day is 24 hours. This cannot happen. Unless hex changing happens there is a mere 24 hours per hex. If you want to get more time you need to burn up a move. Since each side will have a limited number of move that can be used by any one unit each side only has a limited amount of time.
    Sure, a day is 24 hours. But a turns and days are not equivalent. You may only get one turn per day, but each side in a battlespace gets a turn that day. Night appears when the last side ends it's turn, but that doesn't mean that that is the only condition in which night falls.

    A full night appears to pass, and the next day dawns, but GK doesn't get to start their turn. It's Charlie's turn next, so he goes; yet GK still perceives time passing. The sun moves forwards and backwards between hexes depending on the relative times of the observers.

    I don't think there is as strong a link between days and turns as many are assuming.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 80
     Post Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:28 pm 
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    MarbitChow wrote:
    Lamech wrote:
    Once again, a day is 24 hours. This cannot happen. Unless hex changing happens there is a mere 24 hours per hex. If you want to get more time you need to burn up a move. Since each side will have a limited number of move that can be used by any one unit each side only has a limited amount of time.
    Sure, a day is 24 hours. But a turns and days are not equivalent. You may only get one turn per day, but each side in a battlespace gets a turn that day. Night appears when the last side ends it's turn, but that doesn't mean that that is the only condition in which night falls.

    A full night appears to pass, and the next day dawns, but GK doesn't get to start their turn. It's Charlie's turn next, so he goes; yet GK still perceives time passing. The sun moves forwards and backwards between hexes depending on the relative times of the observers.

    I don't think there is as strong a link between days and turns as many are assuming.
    The a turn doesn't span multiple days. So no matter what you can't get more than a days worth of time in a turn. And a day has a finite amount of time.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 80
     Post Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 10:21 pm 
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    My point is that we know every side in a battlespace takes a turn over the course of a day, and those turns last an indeterminate amount of time. So what I'm saying is that by the very nature of the fact that turns take an INFINITE period of time, it is impossible for a day to be a consisent, FINITE period of time. If turns are as short or long as the Ruler desires, then days must be the sum length of time sides take for their turns. Conversely if days are set to 24 hours, then each side's turn would only last 1/x of the day and Rulers wouldn't decide when turn ends, it would just "happen". The concepts are mutually exclusive. Does that make more sense?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 80
     Post Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 10:47 pm 
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    Lamech wrote:
    The a turn doesn't span multiple days. So no matter what you can't get more than a days worth of time in a turn. And a day has a finite amount of time.

    A day consists of 24 hours. A turn ends when a ruler says it ends. Time is relative within each hex, and a unit can experience more than 24 hours worth of personal relative time in a single turn. These are all established facts.

    We don't know that a turn can't span multiple "days" - a day being 24 hours. The position of the sun is variable in relative time - the sun can appear to turn back in the sky for any given unit's perception of local time. Why can't it just hang in the sky in the same position, just before sunset, for 1,000s of perceived local hours?

    We know that every turn we have seen so far has been completed within a single day, and that a single day can contain multiple turns. We have seen that the amount of perceived time that a turn can take is variable. We don't know if that variable length can exceed 24 perceived local hours. We CAN conclude that, IF a turn were to be extended indefinitely, anyone outside of that side's capital hex (or whatever hex their overlord is in) would not perceive anything amiss - time would progress normally for them.

    But we just don't know what would happen in a side's overlord's hex if they chose to never end the turn, and we won't unless Rob chooses to show us. (Queen Bea's demise would have been a perfect time to do so in retrospect - we could have seen her agonize over the decision for 'local' days before she finally walked into the portal; now we'll probably never know.)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 80
     Post Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 11:09 pm 
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    I agree with Marbit's IDEA of how things work, because that's what seems realistic. But if I'm reading it right, that's not what the comic SAYS.
    Erfworlders, Parson found, understood days, hours, minutes and seconds. A second was "one-thousand-one." A minute was sixty of those. An hour was sixty minutes, and a day was twenty-four hours.
    At least, within a given hex.

    To me that reads as saying a day is in a given hex a maximum of 24 hours (with presumably half of that being night). That makes no sense given everything else we know about sides ending turn as Marbit describes. Everything else we've read leads to the conclusion that Marbit said (if a ruler drastically delayed ending turn, all units outside of the Ruler's hex would notice nothing amiss, but units in the hex would experience hundreds of hours pass) But this text update throws a monkey wrench on that idea. Either I'm reading it wrong, or Rob really didn't think the issue through before writing that.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 80
     Post Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 11:25 pm 
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    0beron wrote:
    Either I'm reading it wrong, or Rob really didn't think the issue through before writing that.

    To be fair, Rob did hedge his bets in that comic by having all the participants be drinking. :) We didn't get the EXACT quotes from Sizemore and Maggie which allowed Parson to draw that conclusion, so it's possible that Parson may have misinterpreted something, or missed a conditional; it's also possible that Sizemore and Maggie aren't even aware of the possibility that a ruler can extend relative time by not ending a turn. Maybe only rulers know it, or maybe Erfworlders don't even consider the possibility of not ending the turn (much like they didn't consider the possibility of promoting units to heavy while mounted on fliers).

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 80
     Post Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 11:40 pm 
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    This is true, but keep in mind it also works the opposite way....a Ruler with basically nothing to do could end turn after five apparent minutes...making for a REALLY short day haha.
    The drinking involved by the characters makes me take this less seriously than all our other evidence, I just hope it gets clarified at some point

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 80
     Post Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:25 am 
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    oslecamo2_temp wrote:
    Common sense is for the weak in Erfworld, otherwise Hamster wouldnt have turned an utter defeat of his forces into an air assault by harvesting his own army.

    There's something Erfworlders call "blood" I'll admit that. But considering it doesn't flow out when you cut/impale someone multiple times, then it isn't anything even remotely close to our notion of blood. Eating is no reason for cavities, since they live in a world where stuff just pops in and out of existence all the time. Plus when they're cut in half, we don't see empty cavities on them.

    Again it's not only magic. Food pops in your table while upkeep and wastes disintegrate whitout a trace. Lost an eye? All healed up by morning, whitout any need of extra nutrients to replace lost stuff.

    Where else are they geting the larder food again? Anyone actually working those fields? No farmers, no merchants, only soldiers and rulers and mages and monsters. Even wildlife literally pops out of nowhere.

    For the same reason they have sex despite being unable to produce children. It gives them pleasure. But thanks for pointing out that retcon.

    They can't reproduce naturally, when they're cut they don't bleed, they don't age, they're basically animated toys with wills of their own (in diferent degrees, with basic troopers being almost single-minded and the rulers and top units being able for human-level philosophy and conspiration).

    EDIT:Main point is, there's no correlation to the energy and matter you expend in a day and the food you consume in Erfworld. Wheterver you were just lazing around or fought a series of massive battles and lost half your body, a base meal will get you trough for the whole turn, regardless of whatever you did that turn.

    Attackng instead of waiting to be destroyed? How is that not common sense?

    They don't bleed because of the magic, the same magic that stops them swearing. Also, check back a few updates to see Jillian talking about bladders.

    ... You do realise you are describing effects of the magic, right? And that Parson pops rations and heals/cleanses at dawn just like everyone else?

    What of it? Point is, Wanda has sources of food other than her morning ration pack.

    As I said, there is no reason to believe that Wanda would be unable to concieve a child if not for the ultimate contraceptive that is the start of turn resets. As for your food related arguments, the eighth panel of this page renders them moot.

    As I've already mentioned, they don't breed because they're reset everyturn by magic, magic stops them from leeking blood and we haven't knowingly met a Unit for whom age would be an issue.

    And you base this on what pray tell?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 80
     Post Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:34 am 
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    MarbitChow wrote:
    The Magic Kingdom portals provide an escape clause for this; but then, maybe Kingworld isn't so unknown after all. Maybe the spell exists so that the Magic Kingdom (or even just a small conspiracy of predictamancers and turnamancers) ends the turn by force for those kingdoms that try to fight their fate in this manner. The only sides that ever see it happen, though, are the ones that are about to fall anyway, and dead men tell no tales...


    You just countered your own argument. If a side could abuse the time rule to extend a turn into a million years of relative time, somebody at sometime would've done so. And then their mancers would've eventually called it quits and run away to the MK trough the portal, and told the tale of how their court descended into madness or made peace with their own destiny or reached enlightment or something.

    Whispri wrote:
    And you base this on what pray tell?


    No, you shows your bases first. Every single of your justifications has been "magic lol!". Food, bleeding, reproduction, cleaning, combat, time, talking, movement (invisible indestructible selective barriers!), everything in Erfworld runs by magic acording to you. So by your own words, there's no space left for stupidworld science. Even Sizemore complaining about being hungry happens in the Magic Kingdom.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 80
     Post Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:48 am 
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    oslecamo2_temp wrote:
    MarbitChow wrote:
    The Magic Kingdom portals provide an escape clause for this; but then, maybe Kingworld isn't so unknown after all. Maybe the spell exists so that the Magic Kingdom (or even just a small conspiracy of predictamancers and turnamancers) ends the turn by force for those kingdoms that try to fight their fate in this manner. The only sides that ever see it happen, though, are the ones that are about to fall anyway, and dead men tell no tales...


    You just countered your own argument. If a side could abuse the time rule to extend a turn into a million years of relative time, somebody at sometime would've done so. And then their mancers would've eventually called it quits and run away to the MK trough the portal, and told the tale of how their court descended into madness or made peace with their own destiny or reached enlightment or something.


    "Somebody would have done so" is not proof that it's not possible. No side would voluntarily choose not to prolong their turn under normal conditions. Food pops and people heal at the start of the turn: if you have just one hungry or injured unit, it's cruel not to. The only rational scenario in which a turn doesn't end is when we know the side will be destroyed right after they end turn. There are a number of simple conditions in which a side would prolong the inevitable and leave no witnesses:

    1) The side has no casters. If they're about to be destroyed, this is plausible; they're already weakened.
    2) The casters are sent to the MK *before* the decision not to end the turn is made. Queen Bea sent hers away before she killed herself; it's plausible that other rulers would do the same if they're trying something crazy like not ending the turn. Once the casters are in the MK, time passes differently for them, and they'd see the turn end for them in their new relative time frame just like everyone else.
    3) The casters remain and are slain with the side.

    The point is, we know that turn lengths are variable. We know that time is relative to a hex. We know that night arrives when all turns are over. We DON'T know what happens if a side tries to never end the turn. If I understand your position correctly, you believe that it terminates automatically, because the length of the day acts as an upper limit. That's a valid guess, but it's nothing more than a guess, and we have no solid evidence one way or another as to what really occurs.

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