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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 79
 Post Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:51 am 
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Interesting possibilities here.

First off, I think the clone spell, especially one meant for combat, would work much like any of the super hero duplication powers(Multiple man for example). As long as at least one copy survives then that copy becomes the original and we move on. Any surviving duplicates fade with time.

Even more interesting is the idea that both are permanent and both survive the battle. What does a side do with two rulers. Is one the nice one and the other evil. Or passive/aggressive. It would be really funny if one of the Slatelys left and restarted the side at the old capital and the other remained in Slaterock and won the battle. Confusing as hell but hilarious.

Also I don't think Ossomer is dead. Since he's not chief warlord and wont affect every units bonus their is no way for Ace to know whether or not Ossomer survived the fall. We could see a family reunion down on the ground assuming the titans allow Slately to survive his fall as well.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 79
     Post Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:55 am 
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    Ossomer is DEAD, CROAKED, DECEASED, NO MORE OF THIS WORLD, GONE TO MEET THE TITANS, GOODNIGHT MY SWEET PRINCE-ED. No possibility to the contrary. We saw him DUST. The only distant chance of his "survival" was if Lloyd had duplicated him, and we now very clearly see that was not the case.

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    Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
    There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 79
     Post Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:57 am 
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    0beron wrote:
    Ossomer is DEAD, CROAKED, DECEASED, NO MORE OF THIS WORLD, GONE TO MEET THE TITANS, GOODNIGHT MY SWEET PRINCE-ED. No possibility to the contrary. We saw him DUST. The only distant chance of his "survival" was if Lloyd had duplicated him, and we now very clearly see that was not the case.


    THIS IS AN EX-PRINCE.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 79
     Post Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:34 am 
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    The "wait" and the apparent unhappiness of dittomancer in last frame after suggest to me more likely the copy will only last to end of turn. Not actually a big deal as King's goal is only to win battle to make Trem king, who he sees as more worthy than him and able to provide worthy leadership to actually save Jetstone.

    I think the king would be happy to die in this battle as a hero with Trem surviving him. A ruler is more powerful then chief warlord with natural thinkomancy to all units... Parson would be much more dangerous if he had those sorts of powers rather than having to rely on everyone else.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 79
     Post Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:12 pm 
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    Spleenlord wrote:
    Interesting possibilities here.

    First off, I think the clone spell, especially one meant for combat, would work much like any of the super hero duplication powers(Multiple man for example). As long as at least one copy survives then that copy becomes the original and we move on. Any surviving duplicates fade with time.

    Even more interesting is the idea that both are permanent and both survive the battle. What does a side do with two rulers. Is one the nice one and the other evil. Or passive/aggressive. It would be really funny if one of the Slatelys left and restarted the side at the old capital and the other remained in Slaterock and won the battle. Confusing as hell but hilarious.

    Also don't forget the possibility that the dead king can be decrypted, and the surviving duplicate still is sustained. Oh my what if matter (non-unit) is easier to duplicate? Could you set up a corpse production line? And then an uncroaking production line? Or with Wanda a decryption production line? Parson must capture this dittomancer!

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 79
     Post Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:31 pm 
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    If the king will only live until either lloyd runs out of juice or the end of turn, we should find out soon...

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 79
     Post Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:19 pm 
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    I suspect that having your fall cushioned by landing on someone else improves the survival chances. That would help the warlords and casters who harvested their dwagons, but not Ossomer or Slately.

    TheMutant wrote:
    My Shmuckers are placed on the theory that Slately's duplicate counts in every single way- including that it'll hold the side if the real Slately croaks in the fall- but that it IS a finite spell (it'd be a bit broken if not!), so maybe we'll get a dramatic scene where dupe!Slately manages to promote Tramennis just before he fades away or something of the sort.


    Schmuckers? Try quatloos.
    viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2815
    I'm sure you'll get a taker. You might want to lay long odds on it.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 79
     Post Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:37 pm 
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    I don't think Slately's line is that awkward. I think it depends on how you read it.
    Due to my recent love of the Jetstone characters and my dislike of Gobwin Knob, which only reminds me that protagonist and antagonist have nothing to do with good and bad. I've started to view them differently, which is hard for me being on the Locke side of the fence and all. But they've had a lot of character growth
    But we have a king who remembers what it means to be a king, that the kingdom is greater than him. I never got the impression that he fully intended to survive this battle, just that he fully intended for Jetstone to.

    I admit in my first reading I thought he was the real Slately at the end but looking at it, something seems off about the "Duplicating me this way." I just read emphasis on the this way part. Like there's meaning in that. Like he's different in some way or it was abnormal. It just seems like that is more than just bonus words.
    The tone of voice I imagine him saying the line in now is one of someone who realizes they're already dead. The half sigh of the condemned. I see him as being honestly thankful as he foolishly almost failed his kingdom, and the quick work of his dittomancer gives them their chance.

    It's not a perfect line that way but it fits a lot better than my first reading where it was the whole thumbs up with a sparkling smile routine.


    Also, on a side note I'm going to have to agree with Slately on the matter of Archons I have to say mocking someone about the son you just killed kind of deserves a righteous anger response. Granted I imagine that was their strategy. Just not cool.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 79
     Post Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:46 pm 
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    Salem wrote:
    I admit in my first reading I thought he was the real Slately at the end but looking at it, something seems off about the "Duplicating me this way." I just read emphasis on the this way part. Like there's meaning in that. Like he's different in some way or it was abnormal. It just seems like that is more than just bonus words.
    The tone of voice I imagine him saying the line in now is one of someone who realizes they're already dead. The half sigh of the condemned. I see him as being honestly thankful as he foolishly almost failed his kingdom, and the quick work of his dittomancer gives them their chance.

    Agreed. It seems that Dittomancers can duplicate stats, and physical things. So given the choice between a stat bonus and creating a copy, Slately realized a (probably temporary) copy is better for the side's survival than a stat bonus that would have made him feel safer but ultimately not saved him anyhow.

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    "I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
    GJC wrote:
    Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
    There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 79
     Post Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:36 pm 
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    Slately could have been duplicated at any point in time. We don't know erything every item he carries does, so anything he's wearing could have obscured the real Slately. And since Dittomancers create real copies, not hologram fakes like Foolamancy, the copy does real damage and can more readily fool others during combat. (Of course, it can't make you invisile or make your copy look like acloud of bats.) The real Slately can avoid the fight and stay obfuscated until he needs to step back in and fight. Remember, his goal is killing/capturing Archons, not surviving the long term fight. He's maximizing his kills at the cost of his continued existence.

    Oh, and I think he's having a LOT of fun for maybe the first time in his existence.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 79
     Post Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:55 pm 
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    How much juice can the dittomancer have left? He quadrupled arrows, doubled unipegitaurs and now doubled the king. He should be running on low or out at this point or he is grossly overpowered as a caster.

    Michael

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 79
     Post Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:03 pm 
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    effataigus wrote:
    Thus far we've seen 4 injuries (Ansom, Ansom, Sylvia, Jack), 1-2 deaths (Ossomer, and maybe Ansom... if he wasn't just choked by a troll), and 2 incapacitations (Wanda, Wanda), that I can recall off the top of my head (neglecting the other dragon riders since the story focusing on the living would constitute a substantial bias).


    6 injuries, Parson and Banana both fell as a result of Parsons experiment.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 79
     Post Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:17 pm 
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    mortissimus wrote:
    effataigus wrote:
    Thus far we've seen 4 injuries (Ansom, Ansom, Sylvia, Jack), 1-2 deaths (Ossomer, and maybe Ansom... if he wasn't just choked by a troll), and 2 incapacitations (Wanda, Wanda), that I can recall off the top of my head (neglecting the other dragon riders since the story focusing on the living would constitute a substantial bias).


    6 injuries, Parson and Banana both fell as a result of Parsons experiment.

    Or did they? We aren't sure of the actual mechanics of Parson, or dwagons who get overloaded.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 79
     Post Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:14 pm 
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    MichaelR138 wrote:
    How much juice can the dittomancer have left? He quadrupled arrows, doubled unipegitaurs and now doubled the king. He should be running on low or out at this point or he is grossly overpowered as a caster.


    Didn't the arrow quadrupling happen before Kingworld gave Jetstone a new turn?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 79
     Post Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:15 pm 
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    "The real Slately can avoid the fight and stay obfuscated until he needs to step back in and fight."

    Archons are immune to foolomancy, and could see spell on Jill. So they may also be able to tell the clone from the real Stately if there is a difference.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 79
     Post Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:18 pm 
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    Chit Rule Railroad wrote:
    MichaelR138 wrote:
    How much juice can the dittomancer have left? He quadrupled arrows, doubled unipegitaurs and now doubled the king. He should be running on low or out at this point or he is grossly overpowered as a caster.


    Didn't the arrow quadrupling happen before Kingworld gave Jetstone a new turn?


    I thought GK went before Jetstone? And since Juice is restored at the start of the day, that means that all this was going off of the same reserves.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 79
     Post Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:13 pm 
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    GJC wrote:
    Chit Rule Railroad wrote:
    MichaelR138 wrote:
    How much juice can the dittomancer have left? He quadrupled arrows, doubled unipegitaurs and now doubled the king. He should be running on low or out at this point or he is grossly overpowered as a caster.


    Didn't the arrow quadrupling happen before Kingworld gave Jetstone a new turn?


    I thought GK went before Jetstone? And since Juice is restored at the start of the day, that means that all this was going off of the same reserves.

    Juice restores on the new turn, not the new day. "She’d awakened when the bugle called start of day, but drifted back into a catnap. Nothing had changed; the turn had not started and she had no juice yet."

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 79
     Post Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:52 pm 
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    GJC wrote:
    Quote:
    There are tons of spells on fantasy games wich generate duplicates that allow the last surviving clone to become the original if any of the other existing ones dies, wether they were the original or not.

    This seems possible, but... no, it doesn't seem right. The dittomancer copies things. That's how he rolls. Clones are either permanent, or they aren't. WIt doesn't make sense for a clone to be permanent only if there's no original. Why would the existence of the original effect the permanence of the clone? I could see some sort of necromancy spell do that, "there can be only one" style, but dittomancy seems more clinical than that. I don't think it can create life. Mostly because dittomancy is focused solely on the element of matter. It's numbers-aligned stuffamancy, and stuffamancy is composed solely of matter, no life or motion. He created a copy that acts like the original and has the same stats and ability, but it's not alive. It's not the original, and doesn't have the ability to replace the original. That would require life. It's a fake. A very good fake, but one that will decay nonetheless. Probably at the end of the turn, though it could concievably last for longer.

    I was going to propose a Dittomancer-Croakamancer link up to make full copies, but I'm not so sure that would work. A Dollamancy-Dittomancer linkup might be able to create long-lasting but imperfect copies. Still a pretty powerful way to produce new units though.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 79
     Post Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:34 pm 
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    Note that there is a chance you croak, a chance you get incap. and a chance for damage (which can be small). Not a chance that nothing at all happens. The king was said to be rather fragile and then he got blasted by two archons (which by itself may have been enough to croak him, we can clearly tell whether he is falling and alive or already dead). So even if he is still alive he is probably rather badly injured and the fall at best will deal more damage to him. So him croaking does not seem that unlikely to me.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 79
     Post Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:55 pm 
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    Chit Rule Railroad wrote:
    MichaelR138 wrote:
    How much juice can the dittomancer have left? He quadrupled arrows, doubled unipegitaurs and now doubled the king. He should be running on low or out at this point or he is grossly overpowered as a caster.


    Didn't the arrow quadrupling happen before Kingworld gave Jetstone a new turn?

    Yes! But I didn't see any rations pop, and the arrows didn't recover either. Nor did Vanna's juice recover. I'm betting the dittomancer's juice didn't recover from the arrows either.

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