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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 76
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:26 pm 
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Here's hoping for a Text update of Slately and Ossomer's thoughts!

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 76
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:19 am 
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    Biostar wrote:
    0beron wrote:
    Possibly. There may be a mechanic the prevents this (ie. units can no longer be disbanded while captured). However, more importantly is the fact that we have NEVER seen a ruler disband a unit PERIOD, never mind while captured. Some have put up the theory that it's not actually possible, and rulers simply use it as a threat. (Because a ruler could still presumably take a sword and croak the unit anyway)

    That seems like too big of a secret to be kept between rulers of different sides. If it was just simply croaking them, I think they would just call it that. And it wouldn't have more threat than croaking them, since they "die" either way.

    DevilDan wrote:
    The crux of Ossomer's turning is his own shame, both at betraying Jetstone and at the "ignoble" actions of GK. And he probably also felt useless and unwanted up on that carpet.

    Makes me wonder why Ansom stayed so loyal as long as he has.



    Ansom took the fact that he lost with a superior force (in the act of WINNING no less) as a sign that the titanic mandate that put royalty atop the food chain was over, just as parson told him it was.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 76
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:13 am 
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    Yes, Ansom was still treated, still (mostly) respected, was made chief warlord. The Tool, despite his anti-royalist leanings (superficially), liked him and consulted him. And Ansom could justify or rationalize his new loyalties. Ossomer was not only frustrated and irritated but also disgusted.

    I have other comments on some of this here: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=6249

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 76
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:24 am 
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    Biostar wrote:
    Makes me wonder why Ansom stayed so loyal as long as he has.


    Because Ansom is incredibly, deeply religious. From what we've seen until now, the pliers really seems to make absolutely all decrypted units love Wanda and make them believe that what she is doing is the Titans will. For Ossomer, this did not matter at all since he wasnt religious, he already said it on that bridge with Ansom, if the Titans really decided to support a dishonorable side then whatever, he'd choose honor over the Titans. Ansom was honorable back when he was alive because he thought thats what made him better then regular units and thats what the Titans wanted. Ossomer is honorable for the sake of being honorable. He doesnt seems to believe (or care) if thats what the Titans wants him to do.

    Also, even once decrypted, Ossomer obviously still loved his family and his side more then he loved Wanda. I guess he isnt big on romance.


    Last edited by querzis on Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 76
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:24 am 
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    davesnothere wrote:
    Fabo wrote:
    Not exactly true. Stanley became an overlord by regicide, i.e. coup d etat. While technically hobgobwins killed the king, Stanley was the mastermind behind it.


    I'm sorry, but it's not established that Stanley was behind that action.


    Not only not established, but there's an awful lot of hints that he had nothing to do with it and that some other entity messed with the hobgobwins.

    Good to have Erfworld back!

    I must admit that I'm kind of all "can Ossomer just DIE already?". I'm happy for the Jetstones to kill enough Archons to promote Tram and keep him around, but otherwise the battle of Jetstone really needs to end and let all the major players move onto new events. Even after Wanda picked up the idiot ball before the hiatus and left the scene.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 76
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:07 am 
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    0beron wrote:
    we have NEVER seen a ruler disband a unit PERIOD, never mind while captured. Some have put up the theory that it's not actually possible, and rulers simply use it as a threat.

    Rulers need to be able to disband selected units, e.g. when short on cash.
    We have seen Jillian think about this:
    Quote:
    With a capital treasury again, she didn't have to do the brutal addition and subtraction.
    She didn't need to make a disbanding order in case she started going broke.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 76
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:37 am 
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    Personally, I think Oss was on the cusp of turning when he made the conscious deliberate choice to ignore the threat that Slately and the tower units posed to the Archons and himself and in fact deliberately moved closer to the parapet so that Slately would have a better shot at croaking him. Essentially, he seemed to have resolved his existential dilemma by choosing suicide. Then, Wanda and the pliers were removed from the equation and that was enough to allow his abysmally low Loyalty to permit turning. IOW, it was a combination of factors, the removal of the plier bonus and Wanda's leadership bonus merely being the last one to be applied.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 76
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:49 am 
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    0beron wrote:
    People who dislike him would say he was just babbling and wasting time like all Royals, but people who think he's more clever than he appears (like myself) will see he was actually gathering intell and learning about GK/Parson.


    There was a term I came up with years ago to explain the attitudes of certain USENET fans of Buffy the Vampire Slayer to the introduction of Riley Finn (and to a lesser extent the actions of the rest of the supporting cast): "Selective Suspension of Disbelief." Basically, for some posters, it seemed that if you disliked a character, then any bad actions by that character were proof of his or her essentially bad nature, while any good actions by that character were proof that the writers were treating the character as a Mary Sue to force the character down the audience's collective throat. OTOH, if you liked a character, then any good actions by that character were proof of his or her essentially good nature, while any bad actions were the result of bad writing and poor characterization. Few people seemed open to the idea that a given character might actually have complex motivations that allow him to be clever, brave and endearing in one scene and a dumbass in the next.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 76
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:10 am 
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    atalex wrote:
    There was a term I came up with years ago to explain the attitudes of certain USENET fans of Buffy the Vampire Slayer to the introduction of Riley Finn (and to a lesser extent the actions of the rest of the supporting cast): "Selective Suspension of Disbelief."


    I call it antipathy.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 76
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:20 am 
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    I am curious, does the de-crypted effect of mastery held by Wanda get lost upon side switch? Her ability to command, to the point of facial twitches, her de-crypted units hasn't been addressed after possession of the 'pliers. In fact, it simply seems the 'pliered units retain more of their original skillset -- only in dead form.

    So, could Wanda simply have Oss go to dust upon return to Jetstone? Are loyalty and de-crypted "ownership" independent properties?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 76
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:28 am 
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    No. Uncroaked are puppets, and have an extremely finite lifespan. Decrypted are fully-functioning and act independent of Wanda.

    Uncroaked are controlled; Decrypted are commanded - just like any other units. They just happen to have no upkeep and generally speaking a surprisingly high loyalty to the person of Wanda.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 76
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:58 am 
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    Is Ossomer still a decrypted unit? Could his turning to Jetstone have undecrypted him? His father is treating him like a former traitor, rather than a former/current abomination - Ossomer may have actually reverted to his former, full upkeep self, and may, therefore, be re-decryptable. In which case a clever perfect warlord could use decryption/turning cycling as a way of leveling warlords (such as Sylvia, who was "close to leveling" when she executed Ossomer).

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 76
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:28 am 
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    Ditto wrote:
    Decrypted are commanded - just like any other units. They just happen to have no upkeep and generally speaking a surprisingly high loyalty to the person of Wanda.


    If no upkeep, other than the moral implications, what would prevent a warlord from slaying all of their units and decrypting them? Same army, zero schmuckers.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 76
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:53 am 
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    forty3 wrote:
    Ditto wrote:
    Decrypted are commanded - just like any other units. They just happen to have no upkeep and generally speaking a surprisingly high loyalty to the person of Wanda.


    If no upkeep, other than the moral implications, what would prevent a warlord from slaying all of their units and decrypting them? Same army, zero schmuckers.


    The fact that once decrypted, they can't be decrypted again.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 76
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:06 pm 
    E is for Erfworld Supporter This user was a Tool before it was cool Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
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    forty3 wrote:
    Ditto wrote:
    Decrypted are commanded - just like any other units. They just happen to have no upkeep and generally speaking a surprisingly high loyalty to the person of Wanda.


    If no upkeep, other than the moral implications, what would prevent a warlord from slaying all of their units and decrypting them? Same army, zero schmuckers.



    Well, the fact that the only person that can decrypt anyone is Wanda, and she already has a decrypted army. And the only Warlord around who might order her to do like that is Parson, and he's just assumed command midway through this battle.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 76
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:35 pm 
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    splintermute wrote:
    Is Ossomer still a decrypted unit? Could his turning to Jetstone have undecrypted him? His father is treating him like a former traitor, rather than a former/current abomination - Ossomer may have actually reverted to his former, full upkeep self, and may, therefore, be re-decryptable. In which case a clever perfect warlord could use decryption/turning cycling as a way of leveling warlords (such as Sylvia, who was "close to leveling" when she executed Ossomer).


    On several levels I just can't see that. One, Decryption is itself a big [boop]ing deal, as our own Vice President would say. Its already a break of the normal rules, and that seems like an exploit too far, even for an Arkentool. It would mean the act of turning would literally resurrect a Decrypted, which just seems unlikely for Erfworld, both mechanically and philosophically. Finally it hasn't even been hinted at, and I don't see any mystery that the idea is need to explain.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 76
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:55 pm 
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    So, basically, the check on the power of the Arkentools is that they attune to people who can't use them well.

    The Arkenhammer has hinted at wild transformative powers, and it's in the hands of someone who is simply incapable of thinking creatively, or laterally.

    The Arkenpliers give every Decrypted the chance to rationalize their loyalty to their new side on their terms, which in the hands of a capable leader would make it a game ender--so it's in the hands of a Croakamancer who only knows, and only appreciates, magically coercive control. The moment she realizes that Ansom was loyal because he convinced himself to be loyal, she will freak out. She won't trust the pliers anymore.

    When we find out what the Arkendish does, we may marvel at how it ever wound up attuning to Charlie.

    The wild card here is Parson. If Parson can convince Stanley to try new things with the hammer, and if Parson can make Wanda seem like a good leader, then entools become world-changing again, instead of merely powerful.

    Also, badass Slately is badass.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 76
     Post Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:17 pm 
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    Am I the only one excited to see what kind of whoopass Ace is about to unleash on those poor unsuspecting Archons? I mean... I get the sense Hat Magic is intended as primarily a support-type magic. But you saw what Cubbins did... and Ace has that enormous crossbow that I don't think he's had much opportunity to use, ever...

    Aaaand they have a Healomancer and Dittomancer in the stack too. Casters... man. Casters.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 76
     Post Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:05 pm 
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    oslecamo2_temp wrote:
    querzis wrote:
    Anyway, calling it now, the King dies but they get enough archons before he die that hes able to make Tram the heir.


    Why would they need to do that? Ossomer was an heir before being decrypted, I bet he still is. However Jetstone still needs money badly. Their treasury is empty, and all their remaining casters and elite units aren't gonna pay themselves next upkeep. The leaderless archons are too much of a tempting target right now.

    On the other hand yes, this will totally be the king's last glorious stand. Finally some nice Erfworld action! :mrgreen:

    Sorry to bring back a first page comment, but I feel that firstly, Ossomer has a pretty good chance narratively of dying right now, so Tram's promotion is still important and on the motive side, I think the King sees himself and Ossomer now as relics who've done wrong by following the conservative noble path that they have, and that he sees both their purposes now as merely to break tradition and put the creative noble-reject in charge.

    I can't predict whats going to happen though. Taken individually, both Ossomer and the King should die at this point in the story. The King has said his farewells, seen his Kingdom brought to ruin and now has been given one last throw of the dice for redemption. Ossomer has betrayed his side and now he gets his chance at redemption by switching and dying the heroes death.

    But both at once? I don't know if that's too much. I can see one of them intending to die and failing. But then that leaves this awkward situation where Tram should be King but isn't. If the King survives he can parent Tram and let Tram make the decisions so that might work, but with Ossomer we could have this storyline where he struggles to understand his father's revelation and there's an odd power dynamic between the two of them.

    If I have to actually make a bet, both die, although that's going to be crushing for Tram, I think it's his time to shine and his interactions with Parson are going to be more interesting, especially whilst coping with the tragedy of all he's lost than focusing on Tram +1. If both don't die, I think Ossomer is slightly more likely to live because he's more of a character and it will keep the interesting questions of turning in everyone's mind

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 76
     Post Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:49 pm 
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    Wender wrote:
    So, basically, the check on the power of the Arkentools is that they attune to people who can't use them well.

    The Arkenhammer has hinted at wild transformative powers, and it's in the hands of someone who is simply incapable of thinking creatively, or laterally.

    The Arkenpliers give every Decrypted the chance to rationalize their loyalty to their new side on their terms, which in the hands of a capable leader would make it a game ender--so it's in the hands of a Croakamancer who only knows, and only appreciates, magically coercive control. The moment she realizes that Ansom was loyal because he convinced himself to be loyal, she will freak out. She won't trust the pliers anymore.

    When we find out what the Arkendish does, we may marvel at how it ever wound up attuning to Charlie.

    The wild card here is Parson. If Parson can convince Stanley to try new things with the hammer, and if Parson can make Wanda seem like a good leader, then entools become world-changing again, instead of merely powerful.

    Also, badass Slately is badass.


    Huh that's....actually a very good point.

    Oh hey, new here. Love the comic. Go Team Good!

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