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 Post Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:34 am 
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New One is up.

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     Post Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:46 am 
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    And gentlemen, we have a geographic placement of Haffaton! Since we've heard nothing of them in the present age, I suspect they're going to be wiped out spectacularly after discovering Faq.

    Loving the names, and the high elves. Presumably a report from the high elves isn't going to be taken too seriously by Haffaton.

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     Post Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:01 am 
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    Wanda and Jillian must be ancient come the Future Era.

    Almost certain Wanda isn't with Faq at this point I'd say.

    vintermann wrote:
    And gentlemen, we have a geographic placement of Haffaton! Since we've heard nothing of them in the present age, I suspect they're going to be wiped out spectacularly after discovering Faq.

    Maybe not, they could still exist in a reduced state or have won the game, triggering a new one.

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     Post Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:13 am 
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    Finally!

    Jillian is old, over 200 turns. Ok that's less than a year, but this is Erfworld.

    The other side that went first was obviously Wanda, she has even less standing forces than Faq.

    Turn order is natural predictamancy and not turnamancy or something else. Did we know this already?

    Heddasplode
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    Earl of Otoh? What is this one?

    Haffaton now has awareness of some flying mercenaries, but it's not really clear where there are in the battlespace.

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     Post Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:20 am 
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    Zeku wrote:
    Earl of Otoh? What is this one?

    Obviously, he is a noble administrating Otoh, one of three Faq cities. (Erfwiki is there for a reason, you know.)

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     Post Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:25 am 
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    Zeku wrote:
    Finally!
    The other side that went first was obviously Wanda, she has even less standing forces than Faq.


    Wait, who says natural turn order is based on standing forces? From what's been said so far, it seems every side has an invariant "initiative number" which decides their place in the turn order.

    Since the (one!) other side in the hex take their turn before Faq, and Jillian is convinced it is the large side Haffaton, this idea that fewer forces => earlier in the turn order can't be correct for Erfworld (sensible as it might have been as a game mechanic). If small sides acted before large, Jillian would have known that the side taking their turn before Faq couldn't have been Haffaton.

    Zeku wrote:
    Turn order is natural predictamancy and not turnamancy or something else. Did we know this already?


    Turn order gives information about the other sides present in the hex, that is natural predictamancy in the eyes of a native Erfworlder, just like a monocle would probably be considered natural eyemancy. It does not preclude turnamancy or anything else being a factor in the turn order mechanic.

    Zeku wrote:
    Haffaton now has awareness of some flying mercenaries, but it's not really clear where there are in the battlespace.


    It's worth noting that Haffaton's elves did not know someone was out there before they saw them. The inference Jillian drew ("Hey, our turn isn't starting when it's supposed to, must be a higher-initiative side in the hex") was not available to them, since their turn did start when they thought it would. So for a side favoring sneaky/stealthy approaches, a naturally late turn order would be an advantage.

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     Post Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:04 am 
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    I like Haffaton growing slowly, like vegetation. It suits them. Flower power.

    Also, I suspect that at this point in the story, Haffaton has long since acquired Wanda already. It is supposed to be a jump forward.

    Too bad we don't get to see Wanda under Haffaton. Yet.

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     Post Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:45 am 
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    vintermann wrote:
    Loving the names, and the high elves. Presumably a report from the high elves isn't going to be taken too seriously by Haffaton.


    Either Haffaton is seriously hurting for scout units, or the High Elves highness doesn't affect their abilities as much as you'd think (i.e. maybe they report in high style, but the content is accurate when one parses through the digressions and verbal commas).

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     Post Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:51 am 
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    Jillian really is contemptible. This update is a fine example of that fact. The part about stabbing people and honest money... She is vile.

    Zeku wrote:
    The other side that went first was obviously Wanda, she has even less standing forces than Faq.

    Haffaton's Elves say otherwise. That said, if Wanda is still a tiny independant at this point, she's a Barbarian, thus moving first by default. She's probably allied to a Capital Side by now though.

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     Post Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:09 am 
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    Muzzafar wrote:
    Obviously, he is a noble administrating Otoh, one of three Faq cities. (Erfwiki is there for a reason, you know.)


    The question was whether it was a joke of some kind?

    vintermann wrote:
    Jillian would have known that the side taking their turn before Faq couldn't have been Haffaton.


    The text doesn't specifically state that Jillian believes that Haffaton is the side going first. I think this is important.

    Whispri wrote:
    Haffaton's Elves say otherwise. That said, if Wanda is still a tiny independant at this point, she's a Barbarian, thus moving first by default. She's probably allied to a Capital Side by now though.


    The way I'm understanding this, Jillian is in danger of being discovered because she didn't get to go first, and thus couldn't leave enemy (Haffaton) territory at the start of the turn. Does that necessarily mean that Haffaton is the one that is going first? Couldn't there be an engagement between her and Haffaton forces that are also stuck in that particular hex? Forces that just happened to not notice her until now? Chronology within the hex is much more liberal, and I don't assume that all possible battle events are resolved as soon as they possibly can be.

    Remember that the only real threat to Jillian is discovery of Faq itself, and not discovery of Jillian, or battle against Jillian. So being detected is much worse than the fight itself, as far as her objectives go. This would mean her ability to move first is something that allows her mercenary work to safely continue.

    Now that I read it more carefully, it's saying that 'battlespace determinations' are natural predictamancy, which is not necessarily the same as 'turn order.' That whole paragraph (7) is quite confusing, because if I understand Erf at all, there is a "battlespace" on every turn that you are in enemy territory, and the only thing different about today is that she's still in enemy territory, a place that she intentionally entered the day before, when all the same risks would be present.

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     Post Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:48 am 
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    Zeku wrote:
    Earl of Otoh? What is this one?


    tea? earl (grey) hot

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     Post Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:57 am 
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    Zeku wrote:
    The question was whether it was a joke of some kind?

    The text doesn't specifically state that Jillian believes that Haffaton is the side going first. I think this is important.

    The way I'm understanding this, Jillian is in danger of being discovered because she didn't get to go first, and thus couldn't leave enemy (Haffaton) territory at the start of the turn. Does that necessarily mean that Haffaton is the one that is going first? Couldn't there be an engagement between her and Haffaton forces that are also stuck in that particular hex? Forces that just happened to not notice her until now? Chronology within the hex is much more liberal, and I don't assume that all possible battle events are resolved as soon as they possibly can be.

    Remember that the only real threat to Jillian is discovery of Faq itself, and not discovery of Jillian, or battle against Jillian. So being detected is much worse than the fight itself, as far as her objectives go. This would mean her ability to move first is something that allows her mercenary work to safely continue.

    Now that I read it more carefully, it's saying that 'battlespace determinations' are natural predictamancy, which is not necessarily the same as 'turn order.' That whole paragraph (7) is quite confusing, because if I understand Erf at all, there is a "battlespace" on every turn that you are in enemy territory, and the only thing different about today is that she's still in enemy territory, a place that she intentionally entered the day before, when all the same risks would be present.

    Otoh.

    It does however, state that she believes that it was 'almost certainly' Haffaton.

    Seeing as Haffaton's Elves fled the hex, signs point to: No.

    It shouldn't make a difference. If she moves first, the Turn starting well after dawn tips Haffaton off. If she moves later, dusk not coming with the end of Turn tips Haffaton off. The alert is raised either way.

    She's moved into range of Haffaton's forces. The previous day, she started Turn out of range. The determinations/Predictamancy thing indicates that the Battlespace kicked in because they would encounter Haffaton. That suggests that Side's can share Turns if they just aren't going to fight. Presumably Cities within a day's march of each other share Battlespace regardless, as the choice to attack is always there.

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     Post Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:42 am 
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    ftl wrote:
    I like Haffaton growing slowly, like vegetation. It suits them. Flower power.



    Speculation: Haffaton splits off a side, and the livery for that side prominently features a root vegetable.

    I was hoping that a real-world reference connecting "half a ton" with vegetables would corroborate this speculation, but the closest I found was in the lyrics to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice%27s_Restaurant

    Go!

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     Post Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:19 am 
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    Amado wrote:
    Speculation: Haffaton splits off a side, and the livery for that side prominently features a root vegetable.

    Wanda seemed to think that Haffaton was Ruled by an Overlord though. Maybe Haffaton falls as a result of a terrible act of Changemancy spawning Kings all over the place?

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     Post Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:42 am 
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    The "Battlespace Determinations" being Natural Predictamancy is (in my opinion) a very simple concept, I'm not sure why people seem confused by it.

    Multiple Turns happen in a day when 2 or more sides share a Battlespace.
    We have previously not known what defines a "Battlespace". Many of us assumed it just meant that 2 sides have units within enough Move of each other that they COULD meet.
    But Jillian says:
    Quote:
    ...Natural Predictamancy. She would be spotted by the enemy and allow them an encounter of some sort.

    So 2 sides share a battlespace when Erfworld Predicts that there will be some kind of engagement between them.

    So the real topic of discussion there is not the mechanic itself (which again, I think is pretty simply explained in that paragraph....) but rather the feather that Fate-supporters can put in their hat.

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     Post Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:49 am 
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    What is REALLY interesting here is the revelation that Haffaton (and by translation Fallen-Goodminton) are within an appreciable distance of Gobwin Knob...the possibility of Wanda reclaiming a Capital Site just got a LOT more plausible in my opinion.

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    GJC wrote:
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    There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.

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     Post Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:55 am 
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    Amado wrote:
    Speculation: Haffaton splits off a side, and the livery for that side prominently features a root vegetable.

    I got the impression that Jetstone is super old, and they'd have to be in order to pop Royals, since supposedly Royal sides have been around since the Titans. While this would be funny, I don't see it as likely.

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     Post Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:23 am 
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    SteveMB wrote:
    vintermann wrote:
    Loving the names, and the high elves. Presumably a report from the high elves isn't going to be taken too seriously by Haffaton.


    Either Haffaton is seriously hurting for scout units, or the High Elves highness doesn't affect their abilities as much as you'd think (i.e. maybe they report in high style, but the content is accurate when one parses through the digressions and verbal commas).

    I think their highness augments their scouting - they noticed Faq forces serendipitously because of their highness.

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     Post Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:25 am 
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    I wonder if these prequels aren't just establishing character backgrounds. It seems like Haffaton uses hippiemancy extensively. Maybe we might learn about the hippiemancers plot with regards to Parson as well.

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     Post Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:26 am 
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    0beron wrote:
    Amado wrote:
    Speculation: Haffaton splits off a side, and the livery for that side prominently features a root vegetable.

    I got the impression that Jetstone is super old, and they'd have to be in order to pop Royals, since supposedly Royal sides have been around since the Titans. While this would be funny, I don't see it as likely.

    You have it wrong. Royals can trace their lineage back to the first rulers of Erfworld. Now, a side with royals (or ruled by a royal, or with a city managed by a royal or something to that effect) can pop royals. Furthermore they can split off sides, under a prince or princesses (or maybe other sorts of units too). So presumably a valid line of royal is King A of B, he sends princess C to start side D. Now Queen C pops prince E. Prince E can trace his lineage back to A.

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