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 Post subject: Who controls who?
 Post Posted: Thu May 07, 2009 7:32 am 
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Hi,
seeing Wanda acting a lot on her own accord, taking the pliers, decroaking Ansom and so on, I wonder whether she is under Parsons control at all.
Also, her comments on page 143 (waiting so long for those pliers, her wishing for Parson) might suggest the same thing. What do you think?

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     Post subject: Re: Who controls who?
     Post Posted: Thu May 07, 2009 7:47 am 
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    Well, I doubt a unit, even a caster, can explicitly break the games rules. so I'd have to say it's unlikely she could go rogue, or whatever the term is.

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     Post subject: Re: Who controls who?
     Post Posted: Thu May 07, 2009 8:19 am 
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    I'd think that as long as she's acting in a way that's arguably helping Stanley, and doesn't receive specific orders from Parson, she can do whatever she wants. It's not as if Parson has given her direct orders that she's disobeyed.

    I think the more interesting question has to do with how Stanley came to power in the first place. As Chief Warlord, he had the highest compulsion to help Saline and never betray him, yet it's strongly implied that he may have orchestrated a gobwin revolt so he could seize power. What's up with that?

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     Post subject: Re: Who controls who?
     Post Posted: Thu May 07, 2009 9:22 am 
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    Norden wrote:
    Hi,
    seeing Wanda acting a lot on her own accord, taking the pliers, decroaking Ansom and so on, I wonder whether she is under Parsons control at all.
    Also, her comments on page 143 (waiting so long for those pliers, her wishing for Parson) might suggest the same thing. What do you think?


    Wanda did not wish for Parson. She says that Erf wished for him.

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     Post subject: Re: Who controls who?
     Post Posted: Thu May 07, 2009 10:36 am 
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    She says that, but it's clear when you reread the page where he is summoned that Parson is just lucky enough to trivially match every single one of the requirements that Stanley gives to Wanda. He doesn't match them in *quite* the way Stanley would want, but still. He's a "big guy", he's "commanded all sorts of battles", he "plans wars and kills his foes for fun", he "snacks on gwiffons (cheep!) and eats marbits for breakfast", and he "wants to be summoned".

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     Post subject: Re: Who controls who?
     Post Posted: Thu May 07, 2009 3:17 pm 
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    Norden wrote:
    seeing Wanda acting a lot on her own accord, taking the pliers, decroaking Ansom and so on, I wonder whether she is under Parsons control at all.

    Commanders (casters and warlords) are not only permitted, but required by Duty to use their own initiative in service of their Ruler. I don't think her current state is anything more than reveling in the delight of newfound power, and in the resolution of a long, hard, quest.

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     Post subject: Re: Who controls who?
     Post Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 3:13 pm 
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    Vordrax wrote:
    I'd think that as long as she's acting in a way that's arguably helping Stanley, and doesn't receive specific orders from Parson, she can do whatever she wants. It's not as if Parson has given her direct orders that she's disobeyed.

    this is the thing i dont get though, its hard to tell if she is under control just because parson has only a couple times explicitly ordered her to do anything, and most of these times it was in line with what she wanted as well. so what are the chances she has been doing what she wants for some time

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     Post subject: Re: Who controls who?
     Post Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 9:31 pm 
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    Norden wrote:
    Hi,
    seeing Wanda acting a lot on her own accord, taking the pliers, decroaking Ansom and so on, I wonder whether she is under Parsons control at all.
    Also, her comments on page 143 (waiting so long for those pliers, her wishing for Parson) might suggest the same thing. What do you think?


    We're all forgetting that magical stat that nobody (even Parson's radsicle 3D specs) can see-Loyalty.

    First: Stanley and Lord Saline.

    Option A: Stanley's loyalty is low/zero, and not nearly as dumb as he would have others believe. He orchestrated his lord's death in a mildly subtle power grab.

    Option B: Stanley is in reality a tool of someone else's will (Wanda?(possible, I think) Charlescomm?(long shot, especially because of the 'strong personal dislike' between them from page 42))

    Either way, Wanda's loyalty is also unknown, and if it is low, she's smart to play along until her chance comes-might be coming soon. We don't know what the mechanics of the decrypted are, but I'd guess they're either semi-independent or under her control.

    First post, btw! Been reading for going on a year.

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     Post subject: Re: Who controls who?
     Post Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 11:40 pm 
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    As to the question of how Wanda could attune herself to the Arkenpliers when she knows quite well that Stanley wants it, I'm of the opinion that as long as you can rationalize your actions that they are in your ruler's best interests, it was quite possible for Wanda to do exactly what she did.

    About Stanley and the Gobwin betrayal of Saline, there's nothing so far to point to Stanley having plotted Saline's demise. We still don't know the specifics that would allow a traditional ally of Gobwin Knob to attack it all of a sudden. Perhaps allies fall under the same rules that an unit of its side must follow according to their duty, loyalty and such to its ruler. Or maybe not. Perhaps there are ways to lower the loyalty of an ally to the point that it can consider breaking its alliance. Or maybe not.

    We all recognize that none of us have all the information to make a well-based argument of who, if anyone, is responsible for the Gobwins attacking Gobwin Knob, murdering Saline and allow Stanley to complete his rise to power.

    My guess is that Stanley is not a man of nuance. He does not uphold to any code of honor, but my impression is he's not one to be possible of deception under his own power unless someone else were to nudge him in the right direction. My guess is that, if Wanda had at this point already became part of Team Gobwin Knob, she would have the intellect and cunning to mastermind a insurrection among the Gobwins that would allow Stanley the chance to take over Saline's place and in a legitimate manner also.

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     Post subject: Re: Who controls who?
     Post Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 11:33 am 
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    Joe Falco wrote:
    My guess is that, if Wanda had at this point already became part of Team Gobwin Knob, she would have the intellect and cunning to mastermind a insurrection among the Gobwins that would allow Stanley the chance to take over Saline's place and in a legitimate manner also.


    Also, she would have low loyalty as a foreign/captured unit.

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     Post subject: Re: Who controls who?
     Post Posted: Sun May 10, 2009 12:36 am 
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    Norel wrote:
    Either way, Wanda's loyalty is also unknown, and if it is low, she's smart to play along until her chance comes-might be coming soon. We don't know what the mechanics of the decrypted are, but I'd guess they're either semi-independent or under her control.

    I think that the interplay between her and Jillian on the walls suggests that Wanda's loyalty stat is high. There were other factors at play, such as Jillian's betrayal, but I think she really is loyal to Stanley.

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     Post subject: Re: Who controls who?
     Post Posted: Sun May 10, 2009 1:58 am 
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    atteSmythe wrote:
    I think that the interplay between her and Jillian on the walls suggests that Wanda's loyalty stat is high. There were other factors at play, such as Jillian's betrayal, but I think she really is loyal to Stanley.


    I think loyalty to Stanley has been unimportant for Wanda to date. Her hunt for an Arkentool has made it advantageous to do what he wants; how do you untangle loyalty from self-interest in that situation?

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     Post subject: Re: Who controls who?
     Post Posted: Sun May 10, 2009 3:11 pm 
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    I think it is safe to assume Wanda has high loyalty to Parson as it is through following him that she found the Arkenpliers in the first place.

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     Post subject: Re: Who controls who?
     Post Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 12:53 pm 
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    Occasional Sage wrote:
    atteSmythe wrote:
    I think that the interplay between her and Jillian on the walls suggests that Wanda's loyalty stat is high. There were other factors at play, such as Jillian's betrayal, but I think she really is loyal to Stanley.


    I think loyalty to Stanley has been unimportant for Wanda to date. Her hunt for an Arkentool has made it advantageous to do what he wants; how do you untangle loyalty from self-interest in that situation?

    That's a good point - as that's relatively recent knowledge, I hadn't applied it to the prior situation.

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