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 Post Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:18 pm 
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Kreistor wrote:
http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F064.jpg

Sizemore counters, "Suggestions can make her inclined to do things... lead recklessly, disobey orders. She provides her own reasons for these choices." And two panels later, he calls it rationalization.

That scene is just as corrupted by Suggestion as anything else. The Suggestion is making her rationalize her willing participation in the activities, using a rationalization. Jillian, being under the influence of a spell that helped her participate in something she may not have done without the spell, is forced by the spell to find a reason to continue to enjoy the thought of participating.

Jillian is not an unbiased observer of her spell-addled self, and so is not a valid witness to what she would otherwise have chosen to do.

You left out the other part. It makes her inclined to do things she'd do anyway. A good metaphor would be buying your date a drink or two. It wouldn't be enough to get them plastered, but it might loosen them up enough to do things they might not otherwise. I don't think the spell itself supplies the rationalizations. The subject of the spell was inclined to take the action anyway, so it is entirely within character for them and easy for them to rationalize. Their actions may not be what the probably would have done or should have done, but they are still what they might have done.

Anyway, Jillian had a preexisting relationship with Wanda. So she already had feeling for Wanda and was inclined to cooperate with her desires.

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     Post Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:47 am 
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    There is a difference between a girl choosing to drink and lower her inhibitions and slipping her a roofie. In your example, the girl knows the effects of alcohol and may be drinking to intentionally get over a mental roadblock.

    Jillian didn't choose to be a victim of the Suggestion spell. Very different situation. Jillian didn't choose to lower her roadblocks, they were lowered for her by someone else.

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     Post Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:25 pm 
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    Whispri wrote:
    Never mind that she does not, in fact, rule a Side, the people she conquers get to live on as part of her army. What more could they hope for in defeat? It's not as if they've had their personalities altered via Turnamancy.


    Then when they die again they get dusted. My pet unsupported theory is that Decrypted is both a significant and a literal term. That the arkenplier's "extension of motion/matter principles to the Life axis" literally decodes croaked units' stats out of the encrypted high score file. Then (taking my speculation into tin-foil hat territory) when they die again and dust, they are really and truly gone, not even written into the high score list like normal units. No heaven/City of Heroes for the Decrypted.

    Granted there's no reason for Wanda to know this, and I have no strong position on the main argument here, I just thought I'd share.

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     Post Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:32 pm 
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    Kreistor wrote:
    There is a difference between a girl choosing to drink and lower her inhibitions and slipping her a roofie. In your example, the girl knows the effects of alcohol and may be drinking to intentionally get over a mental roadblock.

    Jillian didn't choose to be a victim of the Suggestion spell. Very different situation. Jillian didn't choose to lower her roadblocks, they were lowered for her by someone else.

    I wasn't arguing the morality of it, just the extent of it. While I'm not an expert of roofies, it is my understanding they debilitate the victim, so I do not think that is an accurate anolog. If it helps, we could change my metaphor to spiking the punch or buying someone a screwdriver and claiming it was orange juice. Still, I am not defending Wanda's actions. The flip side of the coin, however, is that Jillian is still accountable for her actions while under the influence. The changes made by the spell are remarkably small, as Maggie said. Whatever Jillian did, some very great part of her wanted to. To use the alcohol example, suppose someone tricked me into having a couple of drinks and then I started a bar fight. It wouldn't matter that someone had slipped me a couple drinks. The police wouldn't just let me go because I was buzzed without my knowledge. If I started the fight, I would be because I chose to, even if the alcohol lowered my inhibitions or impaired my judgement. Now, I've never been in a bar fight, but it is something that alcohol might be able to get me to do. I doubt there is enough alcohol in the world, however, that could get me to eat babies or something truly monstrous.

    As I said at the beginning, this isn't about the morality of the control, it is about the extent of the control. From what we've seen, the amount of influence seems to be on the magnitude of a few beers, at least to my eyes. I, of course, could be wrong.

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     Post Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:31 pm 
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    Kreistor wrote:
    http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F064.jpg

    Sizemore counters, "Suggestions can make her inclined to do things... lead recklessly, disobey orders. She provides her own reasons for these choices." And two panels later, he calls it rationalization.

    That scene is just as corrupted by Suggestion as anything else. The Suggestion is making her rationalize her willing participation in the activities, using a rationalization. Jillian, being under the influence of a spell that helped her participate in something she may not have done without the spell, is forced by the spell to find a reason to continue to enjoy the thought of participating.

    Jillian is not an unbiased observer of her spell-addled self, and so is not a valid witness to what she would otherwise have chosen to do.


    All this does is say that my evidence is not 100% fool proof. Which is fine; I have never been trying to claim a certainty on my interpretation of this, just the level of most probable situation. I've stated several times that there are facts that would disprove my interpretation, if they emerge. However, you seem to be confused into thinking that my evidence being weakened constitutes evidence of your own. You have yet to provide any that Jillian was influenced by the suggestion spell for that encounter. You have conjecture, and a reasonable case that we can't 100% trust the evidence we have to be definitive. But that is all I see. Given that, we have to go with the interpretation that actually has some evidence supporting it. Sure, we keep our eyes open for something new; but until the something new shows up, we have to stick with the best explanation for all the facts.

    Just to humor me, is there a single piece of evidence you could have appear in the comic, aside from word of god, that would make you abandon your interpretation?

    Kreistor wrote:
    There is a difference between a girl choosing to drink and lower her inhibitions and slipping her a roofie. In your example, the girl knows the effects of alcohol and may be drinking to intentionally get over a mental roadblock.

    Jillian didn't choose to be a victim of the Suggestion spell. Very different situation. Jillian didn't choose to lower her roadblocks, they were lowered for her by someone else.


    Aside from the massive difference between a roofie and what Wanda did in terms of potency... This single instance is part of a long term relationship between two people where one controlling the other is a standard part of their relationship (which I have been told is the core of what the appeal for most BDSM is). We don't know how far Jillian has given consent for Wanda to be dominating in session. We know she was pissed at what the suggestion spell did out of session; but she has not once given an indication that she sees the spell being cast on her as being drugged for the sex. I mean hell, she was hanging from a dungeon wall as a POW, a circumstance that it appears she routinely tried to create (given how often she is captured). Compare that level of control to the suggestion spell; I would say hanging from the prison wall is about 10-15x the bigger consent issue.

    But all indications are that Jillian was voluntarily putting herself in that position. So the fact that she doesn't consider the suggestion spell a problem (for the session, not the out of session effects)? not hard to believe. Especially when there is 0 evidence to the contrary, outside of conjecture on how that evidence could still emerge.

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     Post Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:32 am 
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    Quote:
    So the fact that she doesn't consider the suggestion spell a problem (for the session, not the out of session effects)? not hard to believe.


    I believe you mean 'notion', not 'fact'. It is not in evidence.

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     Post Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 6:17 pm 
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    Balerion wrote:
    But all indications are that Jillian was voluntarily putting herself in that position.


    I don't see any evidence of that at all, because we never see Jillian not under the influence of the spell choosing to place herself in a torture chamber.

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:10 am 
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    gameboy1234 wrote:
    Rcam wrote:
    Interesting that Casters can't see others' disciplines, but Parson can. Book 1 Page 108


    I think that's maybe a continuity mistake by Rob. Or perhaps a good illusion spell will fool a warlord into seeing the wrong stats, even for his own units, and therefore they're really in doubt of Delphie's discipline.

    Or they're just being mean-spirited and facetious. Neither of them like Delphi very much so they're half-expecting her to be deceptive anyway.

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 3:16 am 
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    Kreistor wrote:

    I don't see any evidence of that at all, because we never see Jillian not under the influence of the spell choosing to place herself in a torture chamber.


    This is where the suggestion spell is cast. Do i have to go and drag out all the references to her getting captured over and over again too? They happened chronologically before that spell. Given she was being captured often enough to make people suspect she was a traitor, it sounds like more than just fortunes of war. Since I am going to assume Jillian did not reach level 9 by being incompetent, getting captured over and over would be aberrant behavior for her (as rarely is the other side going to bother keeping you alive). Getting herself captured intentionally is the explanation that best first with her being good enough to survive as a barbarian for as long as she has. Any explanation based on her simply being reckless in general leaves her dead turns and turns ago. So yes. We have evidence.

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     Post Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:15 am 
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    Kreistor wrote:
    I don't see any evidence of that at all, because we never see Jillian not under the influence of the spell choosing to place herself in a torture chamber.

    Vanna had done some good work to turn him, but the dungeon didn't much interest Jillian. Vanna didn't really know how to play right.

    Or they just might croak her. Which would leave her...At Ansom's side, and under Wanda's delicate control. Her heart pounded in her chest like it was trying to break its way out. Titans disband. She really didn't know which one she was here for any more.
    This is after Jillian has broken free of the suggestion spell. The first implies that the dungeon would interest her if she had someone who "knew how to play right," like Wanda. The second one shows that there is a part of her that very much wants to be "under Wanda's delicate control." Even's Jillian's reactions to Wanda is, "You went too far," not "How dare you do that to me."

    Balerion wrote:
    This is where the suggestion spell is cast. Do i have to go and drag out all the references to her getting captured over and over again too? They happened chronologically before that spell. Given she was being captured often enough to make people suspect she was a traitor, it sounds like more than just fortunes of war. Since I am going to assume Jillian did not reach level 9 by being incompetent, getting captured over and over would be aberrant behavior for her (as rarely is the other side going to bother keeping you alive). Getting herself captured intentionally is the explanation that best first with her being good enough to survive as a barbarian for as long as she has. Any explanation based on her simply being reckless in general leaves her dead turns and turns ago. So yes. We have evidence.

    To play devil's advocate, we don't know that is the suggestion spell being cast. A few strip later, we see Jillian start crying as the realization of her actions hit her. The way I have always interpretted that scene is that the "very hard way" involved a spell much stronger than the suggestion spell, that only lasted until dawn. When the spell expired, the realization of the magnitude of her betray hit Jillian, causing her to weep. If that wasn't the suggestion spell, it is reasonable to believe that the suggestion spell was cast a far back as Orgchart. Also, there were other factors in her captures. Gobwin Knob had the table which gave them unparalleled intelligence. This allowed them to know the instant she was vulnerable. Wanda's possessive attitube probably also contributed. While I personally agree with you, there are other interpretations.

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     Post Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:05 pm 
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    Mrtyuh wrote:
    Vanna had done some good work to turn him, but the dungeon didn't much interest Jillian. Vanna didn't really know how to play right.


    This does not say anything about Wanda, only about Jillian. That Jillian has a masochistic streak is not under discussion: it is whether Wanda enjoys torture.

    Quote:
    This is after Jillian has broken free of the suggestion spell. The first implies that the dungeon would interest her if she had someone who "knew how to play right," like Wanda. The second one shows that there is a part of her that very much wants to be "under Wanda's delicate control." Even's Jillian's reactions to Wanda is, "You went too far," not "How dare you do that to me."


    No, that is not what that text says, in context. In context, she is trying to figure out if she can kill one of Wanda or Ansom in order to avoid the Fate of belonging to GK. or if her love for both prevents her from killing either and dooming her future to enslavement.

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     Post Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:49 am 
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    Kreistor wrote:
    This does not say anything about Wanda, only about Jillian. That Jillian has a masochistic streak is not under discussion: it is whether Wanda enjoys torture.


    Kreistor wrote:
    I don't see any evidence of that at all, because we never see Jillian not under the influence of the spell choosing to place herself in a torture chamber.

    I apologize if I misunderstood your point. I was commenting about Jillian's willingness to place herself in a torture chamber while not under the influence of the suggestion spell. As I posted, that quote indicates she would, if she had someone who knew "how to play right."

    Kreistor wrote:
    No, that is not what that text says, in context. In context, she is trying to figure out if she can kill one of Wanda or Ansom in order to avoid the Fate of belonging to GK. or if her love for both prevents her from killing either and dooming her future to enslavement.

    I think this is one of those agree to disagree instances. To me, it seems obvious that Jillian isn't sure why she is there. Most of the update is about how she is lonely. The reason she came was to croak Wanda, but she admits she wasn't being completely honest with herself. The thought of being Wanda's puppet is appealing to her; it makes her heart flutter. She then says she isn't sure the why she really came. A very big part of her wants to be Wanda's plaything, which would mean she wouldn't be lonely anymore. While we know that part did not win out, but it was still there. As I said, it seems obvious to me, although I'll admit I may be mistaken. Still, I disagree with your interpretation of that update.

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