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 Post Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:03 pm 
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Obviously this is all a ruse and Overlord is his first name and he is King Overlord Firebaugh.

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     Post Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:33 pm 
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    Sixty wrote:
    Obviously this is all a ruse and Overlord is his first name and he is King Overlord Firebaugh.

    I'm guessing that Overlord Firebaugh, much like the king of Faq, is a philosopher deep down.
    As he stares up at the snowy mountains, and feels the chill winds blow through the tower, he meditates upon a Koan of cold.

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     Post Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:20 pm 
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    Lots of good cases there, raph. Think you pretty much got them all. There is only one other. A Royal Barbarian like Jillian joins a Side, and is made Heir.

    Okay, I have been reticent in listing the new Rules that we have been given. As always, i try to be complete, so some are obvious. This covers the 4 pages so far:

    1) Units pop where appropriate. In clothing.

    Unfortunately, "appropriate" is an indescribable quantity.

    2) Units pop knowing their name and title.

    Unlike Earth, units are not named by their parents.

    3) Popped units recognize siblings when they pop.

    Atomic knows on sight that Wanda is his sister.

    4) Casters know their function at pop.

    Wanda knew she was a Croakamancer.

    5) Casters can be relatives.

    Wasn't a certainty to this point, though it was speculated.

    5a) Casters can be Noble or Royal.

    A Royal side that pops a Caster that is a sister or brother to Royals is itself Royal, by Earth's version of Royalty. This point may not be a 100% certainty without an actual example, but I think we can hit the 95% certainty mark here.

    6) Stress causes aging.

    Delphine is in physical decay which Wanda attributes to internal (mental) decay.

    7) There are no seasons.

    Goodminton is permanently surrounded by snow. Couple this with GK's weather never changing out of summer, and we have a world where there are no seasons.

    8) Move is affected by Level.

    "Our fastest mounts are also our best ones." Wew were fairly certain of this from the discussion of dwagon Move back in Book 1, so this is really just confirmation.

    ___

    I may add more later. I remember finding more the first time through and expected this to be longer. Of course, I may be less tired than the first time, so I may have been overestimating the strength of other clues.

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    Last edited by Kreistor on Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:13 pm 
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    MarbitChow wrote:
    As he stares up at the snowy mountains, and feels the chill winds blow through the tower, he meditates upon a Koan of cold.


    .... so, Jillian and Wanda are sisters?

    Kreistor wrote:
    3) Popped units recognize siblings when they pop.

    Atomic knows on sight that Wanda is his sister.


    I think that is merely that he knew the convention. The city was set to pop a sibling.

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    5a) Casters can be Noble or Royal.

    A Royal side that pops a Caster that is a sister or brother to Royals is itself Royal, by Earth's version of Royalty. This point may not be a 100% certainty wihtout an actual example, but I think we can hit the 95% certainty mark here.


    Likely. Also, it would mean that Royal casters would level faster.

    If Wanda was popped as an Heir unit, as was suggested, that might even suggest that casters can be Rulers. That might even explain Atomic's statement "My sister, the caster. How bizarre!"

    I agree with the other suggestions.

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     Post Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:22 pm 
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    I would add that a Predictamancer can miss a prediction or lie to their Overlords.

    Possible ramifications of that, predictamancy accuracy can be affected by level or being the Chief Caster can give certain licenses on what information you share (or even share wrong information) with your Ruler.

    Seems Wanda has been around "manipulative" Predictamancers since her early days, so maybe that helped give her that Fate-alistic view of all things.

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     Post Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:35 pm 
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    Kreistor wrote:
    5a) Casters can be Noble or Royal.

    A Royal side that pops a Caster that is a sister or brother to Royals is itself Royal, by Earth's version of Royalty. This point may not be a 100% certainty without an actual example, but I think we can hit the 95% certainty mark here.


    raphfrk wrote:
    Likely. Also, it would mean that Royal casters would level faster.


    The Predictamancer is only L4. Leveling means little to casters. They seem to get their power from their efforts in the Magic Kingdom. There may be Level 1 Masters in existence. Note that Jannis talks to Sizemore about leveling and becoming a Master, but becoming a Master has to do with understanding his discipline, not leveling. Leveling definitely helps, but not seemingly to their major function. Sizemore may give his golems a bigger leadership bonus from increased level, he may increase his juice. he may become harder to kill, and a better killer with weapons. But his real power comes from his mind, not his level, so Leveling to a caster simply doesn't seem that important.. If it was, they wouldn't be treated as stay-at-home support, and would be on the front lines until they reached an acceptable level. (The exponential nature of Leveling compared to the linear nature of leveling effects [Ref: Word of the Titans] means that risk of death rises with level, because you have to fight longer periods to increase the same amount of power. So a smart player under a system like this risks the caster for an optimum period, before pulling the caster back to stay-at-home duties.)

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    If Wanda was popped as an Heir unit, as was suggested, that might even suggest that casters can be Rulers. That might even explain Atomic's statement "My sister, the caster. How bizarre!"


    She would have been called Heir by now. His "bizarre" statement is completely explained by his expectation of a warlord brother, not a caster sister, against Prediction. Because it indictes the Predictamancer lied, that also can explain the exclamation. So far, no one has used the word "Heir". And I don't think they wasted the schmuckers on an heir, anyway. They were down to two cities. Having an Heir makes sense if you know that you can have him somewhere safe beyond the enemy's reach, but an Heir in the same city as the Overlord is just as dead if he inherits.

    Slately has alternate City sites to retreat Tammennis to, so a last minute Heir makes sense to preserve the Side. Don has other cities, so he too preserves his Side with an Heir. Jillina has three cities, but she seems to be a "sallying forth" Queen, so having a replacement when she's out gallivanting makes huge sense.

    Quote:
    I agree with the other suggestions.


    Glad someone said that this time. I wasn't looking forward to a reprise of the last time I did this.

    Not me wrote:
    I would add that a Predictamancer can miss a prediction or lie to their Overlords.


    The latter is already known: anyone can lie to his Ruler if they feel it is in the best interest of their Ruler. And until Delphie admits it was incompetence when her head isn't on the block for admitting to lying, we can't take her at her word. So we can't add either to the list as certainties or strongly suggested quite yet.

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     Post Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:51 pm 
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    Kreistor wrote:
    3) Popped units recognize siblings when they pop.

    Atomic knows on sight that Wanda is his sister.


    Possibly. It may be that he knew that only one unit was going to pop this turn, and that that unit was his sibling. The fact that a female caster popped in the war room in front of him - where on the information of the predictamancer he was awaiting a warlord brother to pop - may have allowed him to jump to a conclusion as to who she was.

    Of course, he may have just read her name tag and points where it said "Lady Wanda Firebaugh", figured it out from that and then asked her her name out of politeness. or the first name didn't pop until she'd decided it, and only the family name and details were there.

    Not sure yet, though. Otherwise that list looks good. I especially like 5a :D

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     Post Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:53 pm 
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    Kreistor wrote:
    1) Units pop where appropriate. In clothing.

    Unfortunately, "appropriate" is an indescribable quantity.


    Gah, double post again, sorry. but, doesn't this mean that Parson should have popped in the kitchens, larder or dining hall... ;) :lol:

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     Post Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:12 pm 
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    Parson was summoned, not popped. The spell was cast in Stanley's office (I believe) so that is where he appeared. :)

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     Post Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:24 pm 
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    sleepymancer wrote:
    Otherwise that list looks good. I especially like 5a :D


    Here's the problem with Casters being Royal:

    We have no instances of a King or Queen, Prince or Princess, calling a Caster "Sister" or "Brother", "Prince" or "Princess". No Caster has a title beyond Lord or Lady.

    A Royal Side can pop Nobles, but Nobles are not family. (BTW, that's more in support of Atomic recognizing her as a sister. Not all Commanders that pop under a Royal side are relatives, so by extension not all Commanders that pop under mundane Sides have to be brothers and sisters.

    (I should have been using the Commander term previously. Just realized that. Remember that Casters and Warlords are Commanders.)

    Look at the vast number of casters that are not related to their Side. Benjamin is not a Transylvito Vampire. Jack and Wanda were not Gobwin Knob. Not one of Jetstone's casters has been called Son or Daughter by Slately. Vanna didn't pop for FAQ.

    We don't know about Maggie or Misty.

    Sizemore popped in the Plaid tribe, which was Saline's, but we don't know who popped him. What we can say with a high degree of certainty is that he popped for a Royal Side. He is actually the best candidate for Royal or Noble, but he too lacks the title to indicate either status.

    And then we have the big one. You don't know who I'm going to talk about, do you? She's a big indicator, actually. BUnny. Transylvito Thinkamancer. Vampire, so popped by her Side. And not referred to by a title. No mention of Noble or Royal heritage. Not called Daughter.

    The question of Noble or Royal Casters is still wide open. They simply may not pop at all. When a Royal Side buys a Warlord, they may get one of:

    1) A caster
    2) A noble Warlord
    3) A Royal Warlord

    Paying for Heir may ensure only options 2 and 3 can pop. It's possible. At this point, we can't be certain.

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     Post Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:02 pm 
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    Kreistor wrote:
    sleepymancer wrote:
    Otherwise that list looks good. I especially like 5a :D


    Here's the problem with Casters being Royal:

    We have no instances of a King or Queen, Prince or Princess, calling a Caster "Sister" or "Brother", "Prince" or "Princess". No Caster has a title beyond Lord or Lady.

    A Royal Side can pop Nobles, but Nobles are not family. (BTW, that's more in support of Atomic recognizing her as a sister. Not all Commanders that pop under a Royal side are relatives, so by extension not all Commanders that pop under mundane Sides have to be brothers and sisters.

    (I should have been using the Commander term previously. Just realized that. Remember that Casters and Warlords are Commanders.)

    Look at the vast number of casters that are not related to their Side. Benjamin is not a Transylvito Vampire. Jack and Wanda were not Gobwin Knob. Not one of Jetstone's casters has been called Son or Daughter by Slately. Vanna didn't pop for FAQ.

    We don't know about Maggie or Misty.

    Sizemore popped in the Plaid tribe, which was Saline's, but we don't know who popped him. What we can say with a high degree of certainty is that he popped for a Royal Side. He is actually the best candidate for Royal or Noble, but he too lacks the title to indicate either status.

    And then we have the big one. You don't know who I'm going to talk about, do you? She's a big indicator, actually. BUnny. Transylvito Thinkamancer. Vampire, so popped by her Side. And not referred to by a title. No mention of Noble or Royal heritage. Not called Daughter.

    The question of Noble or Royal Casters is still wide open. They simply may not pop at all. When a Royal Side buys a Warlord, they may get one of:

    1) A caster
    2) A noble Warlord
    3) A Royal Warlord

    Paying for Heir may ensure only options 2 and 3 can pop. It's possible. At this point, we can't be certain.


    Kreistor, there multiple proofs that Royals pop on demand. You make it sound as if noblity/Royalty status is awarded randomly for all warlords. Also, assuming Stanley was in fact popped by Saline IV, then we can assume that Royal sides can also pop commoner warlords.

    Getting a caster from a unit intended to be a noble warlord is probably a possibility, otherwise Jillian would not feel odd about receiving 5 noble warlords and no casters shortly after starting her side. (Of course, this argument falls apart at the merest doubt of Jillian's intelligence in this regard, but I see no reason to beat the 'Jillian is stupid' horse at the moment. The poor thing is already glue at this point.)

    I don't understand why people think royals are anything more than slightly better versions of the next highest teir in the nobility ladder. Way I see it, if a side was ruled by an archduke, (we've seen an uncroaked warlord with this title and it has a high real world rank, so I'm calling it second only to royal for now,) then he might be able to pop units with ranks ranging from archduke down. There is also might be nothing to stop him from simply lying to other rulers and saying "Oh yeah. I'm TOTALLY a Royal, dude. Never mind the fact that it takes me only 59 turns to pop a royal heir and I have no viscounts. That is unimportant." (Possibility when using this viewpoint: There used to be imperial units running about, but they all died off.)

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     Post Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:24 pm 
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    Swodaems wrote:
    Kreistor, there multiple proofs that Royals pop on demand. You make it sound as if noblity/Royalty status is awarded randomly for all warlords. Also, assuming Stanley was in fact popped by Saline IV, then we can assume that Royal sides can also pop commoner warlords.

    While I agree with you almost completely, I would note that Stanley was not popped as a warlord but as a piker. He was later promoted to warlord.

    Swodaems wrote:
    Getting a caster from a unit intended to be a noble warlord is probably a possibility, otherwise Jillian would not feel odd about receiving 5 noble warlords and no casters shortly after starting her side.

    I'm with you here 100%. I was about to make a much more long-winded explanation of my feelings, but this is it. I would imagine that to have been the case during Wanda's popping, explaining why she's a Lady and why she's the daughter of Overlord Firebaugh (whom I presume to be Noble).

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     Post Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:23 pm 
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    Swodaems, I don't randomly read entire pages of text. If you have something to quote from those pages, then quote it. I simply don't have the time or inclination to read your mind for your interpretation of text that may have multiple meanings. I need to know which paragraph you think proves your case, and how you interpret it to get there. I don't have an eidetic memory, so I don't remember chapter and verse on every fact. I admit I can be wrong and as the work grows, there's more to be wrong about.

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     Post Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:04 am 
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    Quote:
    Only now he was going to have to tell her Don King wanted her to dedicate the next 60 turns of her capital city's production to pop a Royal heir.


    The second page, so far as I can tell, only supports the notion that it is voluntary to make the commander to be popped an heir, but doesn't really touch on the issue of forcing royalty, nobility, or lack of those.

    Now, if we consider that heir and royal are independent traits (see: Caesar, Stanley), the first quote supports being able to force royalty. However, it's possible, however unlikely, that they could find a weakness... er... I mean, that a unit popped to be heir is automatically as high on the royal - noble - common scale as possible.

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     Post Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:46 am 
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    That last would makes some sense, but I have an even better idea.

    Theory:
    1) There are three kinds of Side, determined by the nature of the Side's Ruler: Royal, Noble, and Commoner.
    1a) Royal Rulers are called King or Queen. All other Rulers are called Overlord or Overlady
    1b) The exception is Regencies, which are not yet sufficiently explained
    2) All Sides may order Commanders to be popped. They will receive either a Warlord or a Caster.
    3) A Commander popped by a Side may have any rank less than or equal to that of the Ruler of the Side. This is randomly determined.
    3a) Thus, Commoner Sides can only pop Commoner Commanders, Noble Sides can pop either Commoner or Noble Commanders, and Royal Sides can pop any kind of Commander.
    3b) If the Commander is popped in the same rank as the Ruler of the Side that popped them, they consider the Ruler their parent, and all other children of that Ruler their siblings.
    4) A Royal or Noble Side may, alternatively, order an Heir to be popped. This Heir will be either a Royal or Noble Warlord, depending on the nature of their side.
    4a) Such a Side may pop more than one Heir, who will ascend the throne in order of popping.
    5) Any Side without an Heir may pay to raise any Warlord of their Side to the position of Designated Heir.
    5a) They cannot do this while an Heir popped as such is living, but they can do this to Designate a different Warlord as Heir.
    5b) Royal and Noble Sides generally prefer to only do this with Royal and Noble Warlords who were not popped as Heirs. Example: Tramennis, Caesar. Exception: Stanley.

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     Post Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:50 am 
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    happyturtle wrote:
    I think you misunderstand what I mean by the term 'Antagonist'. I don't mean 'Villain', though that's certainly arguable. I am speaking of the Antagonist as the major opponent to the Protagonist, who we know is Parson A. Gotti.

    His open antagonists are Jetstone, Faq, Charlescomm, and pretty much every other side in Erfworld who might have a reason to war with Gobwin Knob. Or you could say that his personal antagonist is Stanley, who regularly chews him out and can disband him with a thought. Or you could say that his immediate antagonists in the scene he's in right now are the Thinkamancers, who are preventing him from achieving his present goal of going through the portal. But overall, the more that has been revealed over the course of the comics and the text entries and the prequels, I can't help but see it as Parson v. Wanda. Hippiemancy v. Naughtymancy.

    Discussion, I should hope. ;)

    She isn't opposing him in any way, shape or form. Nor does she desire to. Leaving her thoughts on his Fateyness to one side, as long he keeps working for a Tool using Ruler she'll want to be allied with that Ruler at the very least. So unless she keeps poking him with a big stick, or is constantly sticking her tongue out at him whenever she thinks he's not looking...

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     Post Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:46 am 
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    Quote:
    7) There are no seasons.

    Goodminton is permanently surrounded by snow. Couple this with GK's weather never changing out of summer, and we have a world where there are no seasons.


    There are places which are permanently surrounded by snow, in stupid world. So I don't think Goodminton being permanently surrounded by snow serves as an additional evidence.

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    You know... at this point you boops aren't beating dead horses any more. You're making glue.

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     Post Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:00 am 
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    Jorgath wrote:
    That last would makes some sense, but I have an even better idea.

    Theory:
    1) There are three kinds of Side, determined by the nature of the Side's Ruler: Royal, Noble, and Commoner.
    1a) Royal Rulers are called King or Queen. All other Rulers are called Overlord or Overlady
    1b) The exception is Regencies, which are not yet sufficiently explained
    2) All Sides may order Commanders to be popped. They will receive either a Warlord or a Caster.
    3) A Commander popped by a Side may have any rank less than or equal to that of the Ruler of the Side. This is randomly determined.
    3a) Thus, Commoner Sides can only pop Commoner Commanders, Noble Sides can pop either Commoner or Noble Commanders, and Royal Sides can pop any kind of Commander.
    3b) If the Commander is popped in the same rank as the Ruler of the Side that popped them, they consider the Ruler their parent, and all other children of that Ruler their siblings.
    4) A Royal or Noble Side may, alternatively, order an Heir to be popped. This Heir will be either a Royal or Noble Warlord, depending on the nature of their side.
    4a) Such a Side may pop more than one Heir, who will ascend the throne in order of popping.
    5) Any Side without an Heir may pay to raise any Warlord of their Side to the position of Designated Heir.
    5a) They cannot do this while an Heir popped as such is living, but they can do this to Designate a different Warlord as Heir.
    5b) Royal and Noble Sides generally prefer to only do this with Royal and Noble Warlords who were not popped as Heirs. Example: Tramennis, Caesar. Exception: Stanley.


    I'm guilty of repeating myself, but I think not in this thread so I'll bang my drum again. The above is needlessly complicated. "Cities ruled by royals pop nobles (and more royals)". -Parson's Klog #9 We've never yet heard of noble sides, only of royal sides and Overlords, suggesting those are the two broad classes, and nobles are dependent on Royalty.

    We've never seen a royal side pop a commoner commander, though they can be promoted up from infantry. We've heard of Royal Heirs, and we've heard of non-Heir Royals, and we've heard of lesser units being promoted to Heir-designate, but we've never yet heard of popped rather than designated Noble Heirs.

    "Only now he was going to have to tell her Don King wanted her to dedicate the next 60 turns of her capital city's production to pop a Royal heir." -Summer update 37

    My own pet theory is that Royals are popped only in Capitols, and my impression is that's compatible with all the royal and noble units whose starting cities we know of. But whether I'm right on that or not, in any case the strong suggestion is that different unit types take different turns for production, so royal-noble-commoner can't be randomly determined. Caster can, but that's different (and Slately once referred to royal and non-royal casters).

    "Regency" is a mystery, but one that could be solved by looking at the dictionary definition of a regency. Perhaps it's a Royal side that loses it's monarch while a Royal Heir is in production. Or possibly a Royal side that loses it's monarch but keeps it's capitol and has a non-royal heir designate can still order production of a royal heir. I suspect it's not so much a usual category as a special case.

    "Overlord" Firebaugh is a possible challenge for me, but there's still a (shrinking) chance that Overlord Firebaugh is King Firebaugh, just with something like Don King's attitude towards formality. Alternately you're basically right about noble overlords popping noble commanders, although again I don't think randomly given what we know of production times. And I would note that Erfworlders themselves don't seem to divide them up that way in character. It's mostly Royals and everyone else to them.

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     Post Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:14 am 
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    E is for Erfworld Supporter Year of the Dwagon Supporter This user is a Tool! Has collected at least one unit
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    raphfrk wrote:
    vintermann wrote:
    I think that if a noble heir inherits a royal side (as Viscount Caesar Borgata could have), he becomes royal himself.


    I don't think so, that is why Don is popping a Royal Heir, he wants the side to remain Royal.


    That could be. But we also know why he turned "obsessed with royalty" and skeptical of Caesar - because of Queen Bea's sacrifice.

    I think it could well be that it's Caesar's lack of a royal attitude that is the problem. Caesar does not think beyond his own side's interests - very "within the rules" for Erfworld, but without any higher ambitions. Bea's sacrifice convinced Don that some things should matter more than your side - and I think that idea in itself means more to him than royalty as the specific thing that matters more.

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     Post Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:41 am 
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    Kreistor wrote:
    Sizemore popped in the Plaid tribe, which was Saline's, but we don't know who popped him. What we can say with a high degree of certainty is that he popped for a Royal Side. He is actually the best candidate for Royal or Noble, but he too lacks the title to indicate either status.


    But Sizemore's boss is Stanley, who 1. did barely remember Sizemore's name until recently, and 2. does not hold titles in high regard, maybe he doesn't use them. Maybe it's just convention that casters are adressed with their caster titles only.

    Here are my theories summed up:

    1. Royal sides' warlord-class units are always at least noble.
    2. Royal sides can pop royal warlords in their capital only.
    3. Royal units are family, noble units popped in the same city may be family.
    4. Units popped as heirs by a royal side must be royal, but anyone can be designated as heir.
    5. Noble ranks depend on the level (and strength?) of the city.
    6. New theory: Non-royals promoted to heir, upon ascending the throne, become regents if there are still royal warlords around, overlords otherwise.
    7. Noble regents can pop noble units, but not royal - they need to designate a (pre-produced) royal as heir to return the side to royal status.
    8. Nobles who become overlords rather than regents (i.e, lose all their royal warlord units) lose the ability to pop even nobles. Royalty being around is thus a prerequisite of continuing nobility, explaining the apparent lack of noble sides.

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