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 Post Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 1:25 am 
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Darkside007 wrote:
And Jack as well. It's the most reasonable answer, since no one else can control dwagons, and otherwise there'd be no reason for the dwagons to hit Faq. (And assuming that Wanda tipped off Stanley,


And Jack said that where? I don't remember Jack confirming Stanley's guilt anywhere. Nothing explains why Jack would be loyal to a warlord that destroyed his home, especially when turned units have low loyalty. Jack's and Wanda's loyalty is a big hole in the Stanley destroyed FAQ argument.

The dragons could have been an illusion. The dragons could have been a natural flock. Heck, the thinkamancy gram could have been hacked. And unlead dragons wouldn't need a reason to aggro an undefended/poorly defended city.

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there's no way unled dwagons would pierce Jack's veil.)


There is no support in story for this statement.

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     Post Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 4:44 pm 
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    Infidel wrote:
    Darkside007 wrote:
    And Jack as well. It's the most reasonable answer, since no one else can control dwagons, and otherwise there'd be no reason for the dwagons to hit Faq. (And assuming that Wanda tipped off Stanley,


    And Jack said that where? I don't remember Jack confirming Stanley's guilt anywhere. Nothing explains why Jack would be loyal to a warlord that destroyed his home, especially when turned units have low loyalty. Jack's and Wanda's loyalty is a big hole in the Stanley destroyed FAQ argument.


    Except the fact that Banhammer was an ass, and Jack spent nearly all his time veiling cities. I can see anyone turning instead of dying to protect that.

    And Jack never said anything; he's another Faq survivor that "just happens" to be on Stanley's side and actively assisting him.

    Infidel wrote:
    The dragons could have been an illusion.


    On what grounds? Faq was only accessible by air and some tunnels. Where did the force that leveled Faq that turn come from if the dwagons were an illusion?

    Infidel wrote:
    The dragons could have been a natural flock.


    Entirely groundless; we now know that dragons pop same as any other unit. We have also not seen any natural enemies, including wolves and bears (as examples), or anything like the creeps in Warcraft 3. (That is, unaffiliated and hostile to all sides.)

    Infidel wrote:
    Heck, the thinkamancy gram could have been hacked.


    No support that this can even be done.

    Infidel wrote:
    And unled dragons wouldn't need a reason to aggro an undefended/poorly defended city.


    True, but...

    Infidel wrote:
    Quote:
    there's no way unled dwagons would pierce Jack's veil.)


    There is no support in story for this statement.


    Then you haven't been paying attention to how the veil mechanic works.

    Veils work by masking the target as something else; when Jack was crazy, he was veiling the dwagon flight as various blimps. Afterwards, he veiled Stanley's mount as a flock of bats. In order to pierce the veil, a unit with leadership must be in the hex. During the initial dwagon strikes, Vinnie used a bat as a scout in the center hex. When it revealed the hex to be empty, Vinnie did not use the bat to check for veils - Ansom went in himself. That's a pretty strong indictation that warlords are the only ones with the ability to catch veils.

    It is later confirmed in the Faq pass when Caeser is about to tear into Vinnie for not telling him about the foolamancer. Vinnie's response is that they have plenty of eyes to catch his units when they move through the pass, and he specifies warlord eyes. Otherwise the bats they have could help spot the veiled dwagons.

    Therefore, an unled flight of dwagons would never have attacked Faq, assuming that Jack was doing his job. (And the only reason he wouldn't was because he was a traitor, which goes back to Stanley.)

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     Post Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 5:30 pm 
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    Darkside007 wrote:


    Except the fact that Banhammer was an ass, and Jack spent nearly all his time veiling cities. I can see anyone turning instead of dying to protect that.


    Maybe, but considering that Sizemore worked in the cesspit and got offended when he thought Parson was ordering him to leave, I'd think Banhammer would need to do something a bit more heavy handed.

    Quote:
    Infidel wrote:
    The dragons could have been an illusion.


    On what grounds? Faq was only accessible by air and some tunnels. Where did the force that leveled Faq that turn come from if the dwagons were an illusion?


    Who knows where the force came from. All evidence so far is circumstantial. Until some real evidence comes along, we need to allow for other possibilities.

    Quote:
    Infidel wrote:
    The dragons could have been a natural flock.


    Entirely groundless; we now know that dragons pop same as any other unit. We have also not seen any natural enemies, including wolves and bears (as examples), or anything like the creeps in Warcraft 3. (That is, unaffiliated and hostile to all sides.)


    Just because dragons can be popped as a unit doesn't mean they can't pop independently. We do know that Warlords that are popped in city also pop in the wild, so if one unit pops in cities and in the wild, there is no reason to believe there are no other units that do the same. Also, panel 1 of Erfworld has a flying dragon before the Titans had even finished creating mountains, so non aligned dragons have existed without cities to pop them.

    As for creeps, look at the little snakies all over the magic kingdom. The lack of natural enemies depicted so far doesn't mean much either. A traveling army tends to scare any intelligent animal away long before they get into visual range. So far no scenes are even close to a National Geographic documentary of the local flora and fauna, so absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

    Quote:
    Infidel wrote:
    Heck, the thinkamancy gram could have been hacked.


    Charlie hacked the books that are based on thinkamancy. Maggie when she linked up Parson with Charlie expressed that she had no idea how Charlie might be able to work with such a connection. Thus it is implied that it is possible.


    Infidel wrote:
    And unled dragons wouldn't need a reason to aggro an undefended/poorly defended city.

    Quote:
    True, but...

    Infidel wrote:
    Quote:
    there's no way unled dwagons would pierce Jack's veil.)


    There is no support in story for this statement.


    Then you haven't been paying attention to how the veil mechanic works.


    Actually, you seem to be forgetting that Jack couldn't veil all three cities at the same time. He would have to veil all three to disguise them from a flight of dragons looking for a new home. All the dragons had to do was fly into the valley until they reached a point where they could see all three cities at the same time.

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    Last edited by Infidel on Wed May 06, 2009 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 5:39 pm 
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    Infidel wrote:
    Actually, you seem to be forgetting that Jack couldn't veil all three cities at the same time. He would have to veil all three to disguise them from a flight of dragons looking for a new home. All the dragons had to do was fly into the valley until they reached a point where they could see all three cities at the same time.

    There's no real indication that units can see things in other hexes (except via Lookamancy), and at least one indication that they can't (the center hex of the dwagon donut remained completely unknown even as scout bats reported back from each of the periphery hexes).

    That said, a flight of dwagons (wild or directed) might have overflown two or all three of Faq's cities during their move, which would overcome Jack's ability to hide them.

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     Post Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 5:59 pm 
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    SteveMB wrote:
    There's no real indication that units can see things in other hexes (except via Lookamancy), and at least one indication that they can't (the center hex of the dwagon donut remained completely unknown even as scout bats reported back from each of the periphery hexes).


    Page 115 Jillian, Vinnie, bats, and mountains in the distance are visible through the hex barrier
    page 137 Dude's that are about to die see the flames erupting from the volcano in another hex.
    Page 97, Effdup tower is visible in the light show from another hex. The walls are also visible.

    I'm pretty sure the visibility issue from pg 60 is a terrain matter of the trees disguising units. Even the dragons were hiding in the trees instead of simply flying over them. Being in the trees probably makes you invisible from another hex, but also means you can't see into another hex. Or maybe just one of those.

    pg 65 Jillian and crew were one hex away and Jillian decides to punch through the dragons to get to Ansom.

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     Post Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 7:28 pm 
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    On page 65 they don't see the dwagons until they're in the same hex.

    Page 64 last frame - they're one hex away.
    Page 65 frames 1-9 Jillian is explaining her plan to the archons.
    Page 65 frames 10 and 11 they're moving into the next hex.. "C'mon, it'll be fun. You'll level." (Note the blue motion streaks on the archons in 10)
    Page 65 frame 12 and 13 they're in the hex and can see the dwagons (as long as they aren't distracted by arguing.)
    Page 66 first frame they're all in the same hex and the jig is up, but Parson holds off until he sees what Jillian will do.

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     Post Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 8:46 pm 
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    Quote:
    Page 64 last frame - they're one hex away.
    Page 65 frames 1-9 Jillian is explaining her plan to the archons.
    Page 65 frames 10 and 11 they're moving into the next hex.. "C'mon, it'll be fun. You'll level." (Note the blue motion streaks on the archons in 10)


    She's over the lake" She's one hex away! Frames 1-10 are not over the lake, note the green forest below and the water before them, so they are not one hex away yet. I agree pg 11 is them moving into the next hex. But the next hex is the first lake hex, so they are one hex away when they look up and see the dragons.

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     Post Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 8:54 pm 
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    Infidel wrote:
    She's over the lake" She's one hex away! Frames 1-10 are not over the lake, note the green forest below and the water before them, so they are not one hex away yet. I agree pg 11 is them moving into the next hex. But the next hex is the first lake hex, so they are one hex away when they look up and see the dragons.


    Different units might have different ranges. It seems reasonable that flying units would be able to see further than ground units. If the dwagons have a 'hide' mode, I wonder if they lose their defence against ground attack when hiding in the trees.

    Vinny's bats seem to be like a video camera, so he may not be able to see very far with them.

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     Post Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 8:59 pm 
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    Infidel wrote:
    Darkside007 wrote:


    Except the fact that Banhammer was an ass, and Jack spent nearly all his time veiling cities. I can see anyone turning instead of dying to protect that.


    Maybe, but considering that Sizemore worked in the cesspit and got offended when he thought Parson was ordering him to leave, I'd think Banhammer would need to do something a bit more heavy handed.


    He was a raging, constant jackass that even Jillian hated. Heavy-handed is a fitting description.

    Infidel wrote:

    Who knows where the force came from. All evidence so far is circumstantial. Until some real evidence comes along, we need to allow for other possibilities.


    Other reasonable possibilities. Otherwise you could blame the whole thing on space aliens or Chupacabra. Aerial assault was it.

    Infidel wrote:

    Just because dragons can be popped as a unit doesn't mean they can't pop independently. We do know that Warlords that are popped in city also pop in the wild, so if one unit pops in cities and in the wild, there is no reason to believe there are no other units that do the same. Also, panel 1 of Erfworld has a flying dragon before the Titans had even finished creating mountains, so non aligned dragons have existed without cities to pop them.


    Everything in Erfworld had to be started by the Titans, so every unit type and city was likely popped by the Titans to start, so that doesn't mean much.

    Where were Warlords popped in the wild?

    Infidel wrote:
    As for creeps, look at the little snakies all over the magic kingdom. The lack of natural enemies depicted so far doesn't mean much either. A traveling army tends to scare any intelligent animal away long before they get into visual range. So far no scenes are even close to a National Geographic documentary of the local flora and fauna, so absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


    No, no. Absence of evidence is all there is for evidence of absence. You will not see a sign saying "No wild dwagons." There will simply be an absence of wild dwagons. AoE=/=EoA is just a lazy way to shift the burden of proof to the impossible negative.

    Infidel wrote:

    Charlie hacked the books that are based on thinkamancy. Maggie when she linked up Parson with Charlie expressed that she had no idea how Charlie might be able to work with such a connection. Thus it is implied that it is possible.


    Not really, just that directly contacting Charlie was dangerous because of the Arkendish, not that Charlie might be able to hack the books. And we also don't know he hacked them; they could function as IM programs, that Charlie can send and recieve messages to and from but not be able to read.


    Infidel wrote:

    Actually, you seem to be forgetting that Jack couldn't veil all three cities at the same time. He would have to veil all three to disguise them from a flight of dragons looking for a new home. All the dragons had to do was fly into the valley until they reached a point where they could see all three cities at the same time.


    No, because at least one city would survive, whichever was being veiled.

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     Post Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 9:03 pm 
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    Infidel wrote:
    She's over the lake" She's one hex away! Frames 1-10 are not over the lake, note the green forest below and the water before them, so they are not one hex away yet. I agree pg 11 is them moving into the next hex. But the next hex is the first lake hex, so they are one hex away when they look up and see the dragons.


    mm, the Stanley quote is a very good point.

    Page 66 panel 1 shows 2 hexes behind Jillian that are forest. The last panel on that same page makes it look like she came into the dwagon hex from the forest hex on Parson's right.

    Oh well, the search for answers continues!

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     Post Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 10:13 pm 
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    Darkside007 wrote:
    He was a raging, constant jackass that even Jillian hated. Heavy-handed is a fitting description.


    That isn't how he was described. He's obsessed with philosophy not battle. So raging doesn't fit.

    Quote:

    Other reasonable possibilities. Otherwise you could blame the whole thing on space aliens or Chupacabra. Aerial assault was it.


    There is nothing unreasonable about the possibilities I've suggested. They are all common to wargames. Barbarian Blitz especially.


    Quote:
    Where were Warlords popped in the wild?


    This is Word of god. I'll have to dig it up, at least it was recent.


    Quote:
    No, no. Absence of evidence is all there is for evidence of absence. You will not see a sign saying "No wild dwagons." There will simply be an absence of wild dwagons. AoE=/=EoA is just a lazy way to shift the burden of proof to the impossible negative.


    No it is not. But I find it funny for you to use this argument, considering that it applies more to you than to me. If you are working with inferior evidence, then you cannot make definitive conclusions. Your declarations are equivalent to claiming that dinosaurs could not have existed, because you dug a few six inch deep holes in your back yard and didn't find anything but dirt and an old penny. There have not been enough wilderness scenes to make ANY claims about the fauna so you don't have enough evidence to make any claims only suppositions. Like I said, there were plenty of creepies in magic kindgom so there is no reason to speculate that other places do not have crepies too. Most of Book 1 has been in a city, so a lack of creepies there is a non issue.

    Quote:
    Not really, just that directly contacting Charlie was dangerous because of the Arkendish, not that Charlie might be able to hack the books. And we also don't know he hacked them; they could function as IM programs, that Charlie can send and recieve messages to and from but not be able to read.


    He did hack the books. Parson complained that they were supposed to be secure. Since Charlie could read Parson's replies, we can safely assume that Charlie could read any messages at least after the fact. Charlie was not on the IM list. Parson says haxxors and Charlie replies indeed.

    Quote:
    No, because at least one city would survive, whichever was being veiled.


    Not necessarily.

    Jack could have been between cities when things went down and been unable to ward any because he was busy warding himself instead.
    Jack could have been in a city other than the one Banhammer was in. Don't forget Jack had to move hexes to veil. If the city Banhammer was in fell, then all 3 cities would have fallen and Jack's veil would not recast if his city went neutral.

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     Post Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 2:00 am 
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    Quote:
    On what grounds? Faq was only accessible by air and some tunnels. Where did the force that leveled Faq that turn come from if the dwagons were an illusion?


    Hmm.. Archons? They can see through veils, they move quickly, and the thinkagram could be possibly faked or hacked. Who says it *was* dragons - that could have been what Charlie told Jillian.

    Just a thought, though.

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     Post Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 1:54 pm 
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    I'll just point out that just because I'll argue different possibilities doesn't mean I'm supporting them. Right now I think Stanley did raid faq and we are just missing the pieces of information that explain Jack and Wanda's attitude. But because we have a very shallow picture of what happened, there are other possibilities, so I'm just arguing for an open mind until more information comes along.

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     Post Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 3:03 pm 
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    SteveThaiBinh wrote:
    Do any of the theories that have Stanley conquering Faq have an explanation for why Jack is loyal to Stanley? That's always been the bit I couldn't get my head round.

    stanley captures faq, units surrender because of the poor treatment by banhammer and the thoughts of joining a superoir dwagon side. those with low amount of loyalty have spells cast on them by maggie when they get back to the city.

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     Post Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 3:41 pm 
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    konmanrocks wrote:
    SteveThaiBinh wrote:
    Do any of the theories that have Stanley conquering Faq have an explanation for why Jack is loyal to Stanley? That's always been the bit I couldn't get my head round.

    stanley captures faq, units surrender because of the poor treatment by banhammer and the thoughts of joining a superoir dwagon side. those with low amount of loyalty have spells cast on them by maggie when they get back to the city.


    The only problem with the "poor treatment" argument is Sizemore. Sizemore has been treated VERY poorly by Stanley, but appears very loyal.

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     Post Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 4:10 pm 
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    Infidel wrote:
    The only problem with the "poor treatment" argument is Sizemore. Sizemore has been treated VERY poorly by Stanley, but appears very loyal.

    People react differently. Some rebel, some grumble, and some simply get used to it.

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     Post Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 4:52 pm 
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    Infidel wrote:
    Darkside007 wrote:

    Where were Warlords popped in the wild?


    This is Word of god. I'll have to dig it up, at least it was recent.


    Here's a wiki page collecting all Word of God posts.

    The post you wanted: http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Word_of_the_Titans#6051503

    Edit: Whoops! Proper link put in.

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    MarbitChow wrote:
    Don't you get it yet? WE ARE THE MAGIC KINGDOM.
    We're the people sitting around discussing our pet theories based on nomenclature, citing references, discussing ad nauseum while Parson finds out how it works.


    Last edited by doran on Fri May 08, 2009 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 4:56 pm 
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    True enough.

    I hope this is a question that will be answered in book 2. :)

    [spoiler]spoiler removed since spoiler tag doesn't work.[/spoiler]


    @Doran. Thank you. The first link gave me a 404 error, but the second link worked :) Many thinks for doing my work for me. :)

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     Post Posted: Sun May 10, 2009 7:49 am 
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    Just a note about Wanda:

    When the Character Profiles page was still up on Giant in the Playground, Wanda was listed as a member of "the long-lost Croatan tribe". She was not originally a Faq unit, so her loyalty to them may have been particularly low.

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     Post Posted: Sun May 10, 2009 9:57 am 
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    privatepepper wrote:
    Just a note about Wanda:

    When the Character Profiles page was still up on Giant in the Playground, Wanda was listed as a member of "the long-lost Croatan tribe". She was not originally a Faq unit, so her loyalty to them may have been particularly low.

    The tribe name and the place name are independent of each other (e.g. "Plaid"/"Gobwin Knob"). As far as we know, "Croatan" was the name of the tribe that inhabited Faq (which would fit with their being "lost").

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