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 Post Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:10 pm 
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I've shifted this discussion here from Reactions, since it's off-topic for that forum.

raphfrk wrote:
Maggie did communicate with Stanley while linked. This shouldn't have required any of the other casters.

(hunts unsuccessfully for scratching-head emoticon)

I'm not sure what you're referring to. Can you point me to the relevant page?

raphfrk wrote:
My view is that the key is treating the person an an individual. As long as you treat the linked casters as a single very powerful caster, then you are OK. (and that caster has access to all the spells of its constituents and the extra ones).

I agree with the first two sentences. It's the third that I have difficulty with. The spells of the link-up strike me as an agglomeration of the spells of the individuals, subsuming those spells into a greater whole, in the same way that the link-up itself subsumes the personalities of the individual casters into the greater mind of the link-up.

(But see comment lower down.)

raphfrk wrote:
He asked her her name here

The process was:

Parson: <are you the foolamancer>
Misty: <no lookamancer>
<discussion about moving units at night>
Parson: What's you name?
Misty: Lookamancer ... was called misty

If you look at the panel where she says the Misty line (8), it is the saying of her name that triggers an effect.

What effect? I see nothing being triggered by the use of her name. Seriously, you seem to be reading a great deal into that panel that isn't there, and making a bigger deal of the name business than it warrants.

raphfrk wrote:
I don't think there is conclusive evidence either way. We don't see the linked up casters casting anything other than the table and Maggie communicating with units (and ofc the volcano spell).

Unfortunately, probably true. But the valuable thing about discussion is that it can point out things we've missed. I've learned a lot from this so far.

raphfrk wrote:
I was more confident in my view before this thread :).

Heh. Me too.

I'm reminded of this page, where Wanda and Sizemore are depicted as if acting like individuals, even though linked up. Maybe that's metaphorical, since none of us have any experience of being absorbed into a group mind, rather than being a literal depiction of their interaction. I don't know.

raphfrk wrote:
From this page:

Parson: ... and we can't do it [veil] with the Eyemancers linked up

That could mean that Jack must stay in the capital.

Well, that's interesting. Though I don't see that it means they have to stay in the capital. Misty could move around by herself at night. I don't see why the three of them couldn't take a portal to the Magic Kingdom, or get on a dwagon or three and go flying.

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     Post Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 7:45 pm 
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    Arkenputtyknife wrote:
    I'm not sure what you're referring to. Can you point me to the relevant page?


    This page, panels 8 and 9.

    Parson and Stanley are in some corridor and Maggie sends a status update to Stanley via thinkamancy.

    Quote:
    Quote:
    If you look at the panel where she says the Misty line (8), it is the saying of her name that triggers an effect.

    What effect? I see nothing being triggered by the use of her name. Seriously, you seem to be reading a great deal into that panel that isn't there, and making a bigger deal of the name business than it warrants.


    Her eyes are similar to what Jack looks like when suffering from the mental effects. (one partially closed)

    Quote:
    I'm reminded of this page, where Wanda and Sizemore are depicted as if acting like individuals, even though linked up. Maybe that's metaphorical, since none of us have any experience of being absorbed into a group mind, rather than being a literal depiction of their interaction. I don't know.


    Yeah, but they refer to each other by caster type, not as Sizemore and Wanda. In fact, the ill effects might be caused by treating them as people rather than casters. There doesn't seem to be any negative effects when Parson calls Misty by her caster type and names do seem significant to the spell.

    Quote:
    Well, that's interesting. Though I don't see that it means they have to stay in the capital. Misty could move around by herself at night. I don't see why the three of them couldn't take a portal to the Magic Kingdom, or get on a dwagon or three and go flying.[/color]


    However, the table wouldn't be much good if the three of them went flying on a dwagon in order to veil a stack. If they did that, they might as well break the link.

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     Post Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:16 pm 
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    More rampant speculation: The possibility occurred to me that maybe Stanley/Wanda weren't using the Eyemancer Linkup to it's fullest capabilities. Instead of a Thinkamancer being present at one end to initiate or receive orders, you had the Eyebooks. Instead of a Lookamancer to see the field of battle or wherever else you wanted to look, you had the Table. The Foolamancer was under-utilized in this case, except as an adjuct to the Lookamancer. Has it occurred to Wanda or Stanley to ASK the Eyemancer Trio if they could veil all Gobwin Knob units, or even Gobwin Knob itself? Or maybe even "blind" or "illusionary maze" an enemy stack?

    If Parson wasn't so horrified by the loss of individuality that the Linkup needed, he might have exploited it far, far more.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 7:37 am 
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    BarGamer wrote:
    Instead of a Thinkamancer being present at one end to initiate or receive orders, you had the Eyebooks.


    You mean that every warlord should have been given an Eyebook? That sounds reasonable. In fact, they should have mass produced them while they had the table. Ofc, their stockpile would have been destroyed with GK version 1.

    Quote:
    Instead of a Lookamancer to see the field of battle or wherever else you wanted to look, you had the Table.


    I stand by my opinion that the table is much better than a standard lookamancer. Ofc, we don't know if the lookamancer has individual spells. Perhaps, a lookamancer can buff units so that they have improved accuracy or something.

    Quote:
    The Foolamancer was under-utilized in this case, except as an adjuct to the Lookamancer. Has it occurred to Wanda or Stanley to ASK the Eyemancer Trio if they could veil all Gobwin Knob units, or even Gobwin Knob itself? Or maybe even "blind" or "illusionary maze" an enemy stack?


    Thinkamancy has the ability to make images appear in people's minds. This is used for thinkagrams when the 2 people can see each other.

    At the transmit end, it appears between the caster's hands. However, the receiver doesn't need it.

    On this page, Ansom and Parson are communicating. Parson sees Ansom between Maggie's hands, but he can also see Parson.

    Nobody else at the coalition table sees Parson's image, so presumably it is all in Ansom's head.

    Maybe the foolamancer could use that thinkamancy ability to send a personal veiling image. For example, when Jillian entered the hex with the dwagons, she could be made to see the veiled version of the dwagons. This would make it much easier for the suggestion spell to work. From Jillian's perspective, the Archons would be telling her that there are dwagons in the hex, but she would clearly see that they were just peaceful wild animals or something and can't waste time killing them as they need to help Ansom.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 1:32 pm 
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    Raph, they are right. There's no obvious reason for a Foolamancer to be needed for that particular link. Lookamancer provides observation (enhanced in the same way Sizemore's perception of the mountain is), and Thinkamancer provides communications allowing instantaneous prders to be sent to all units with fewer restrictions than normal Thinkagram. But the Foolamancer's ability to hide and Change the appearance of units is not obviuously being put to use. And it seems the Link does not expand that so that he can use it beyond normal range.

    I am going to speculate. All of this lacks support.

    First, there may be a limit of ony one Caster from a Discilpline in the Link. This would demand someone from a different Disciline to support the Lookamancer-Thinkamancer pair.

    Second, the increased ability may be prportional or exponentially affected by the number of participants, meaning a third Caster was necessary to reach the power levels the Table required.

    Neither of these force an Eyemancer to be the third caster, so...

    Third, Similarities between the Disciplines additionally enhance the power of the Link. So, if you have three Eyemancers, it's more powerful than a Lookamancer-Thinkamancer-Dirtamancer, for instance. Since you need a Thinkamancer, if you went along the Axis, you'd need three Fate casters.

    Anyway, they're point is valid. Jack does not obviously add (or is used) in that Link.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:04 pm 
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    The foolamancer is needed to generate the visual display.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:46 pm 
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    Aye, he creates the illusion, or veil, that appears as a holographic, detailed, real-time map, allowing Stanley and others to 'see' what the Lookamancer sees.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 3:12 pm 
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    Kreistor wrote:
    Second, the increased ability may be prportional or exponentially affected by the number of participants, meaning a third Caster was necessary to reach the power levels the Table required.


    It depends on how the powers add up. I think the volcano spells was considerably more powerful than the table spell. Granted it was a once off (the table may have more effect over the long term).

    Perhaps, Misty was a relatively weak caster, when compared to Sizemore and Wanda. (Jack being "master-class" is probably at least their equal).

    I think that a Lookamancer/Thinkamancer link-up might still allow a table to be created. However, the images would have to be generated by the Thinkamancer. Thus, there could be a limit to the number of people who can view the table (perhaps even limited to just 1) and the images may have to be dropped temporarily while commands are sent, as the Thinkamancer has to focus on the thinkagram. Also, a Thinkamancer might be less capable at generating "nice" images.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 3:57 pm 
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    The Volcano Uncroaking may not have been about raw power. In this case, the power of the effect triggered a dormant power. Look at it this way: if a rock is teetering on a cliff edge, the amount of power you get from the impact is dependent on how high the cliff is, not the amount of power used to push it off the cliff. The Volcano Uncroaking may have been more about creating a channel for already existent power to reach a place than for melting rock and causing it to well up.

    My own specialty is electronics. With a basic transistor, all you need is 1/100th of the power output to be used to trigger the flow of power. Very little power in results in a tremendous power out. Using an Op Amp you can get far more. That's all this may have been -- they put a little power in and got a tremendous amount of power out.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:20 pm 
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    Kreistor wrote:
    Look at it this way: if a rock is teetering on a cliff edge, the amount of power you get from the impact is dependent on how high the cliff is, not the amount of power used to push it off the cliff.


    Fair enough.

    However, uncroaking the volcano would have required considerable rock moving to "unplug" it, so it did require more than just pushing a rock off a cliff, though it would have had high gain.

    Quote:
    My own specialty is electronics.


    Me too :).

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:33 pm 
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    raphfrk wrote:
    I think that a Lookamancer/Thinkamancer link-up might still allow a table to be created. However, the images would have to be generated by the Thinkamancer. Thus, there could be a limit to the number of people who can view the table (perhaps even limited to just 1) and the images may have to be dropped temporarily while commands are sent, as the Thinkamancer has to focus on the thinkagram. Also, a Thinkamancer might be less capable at generating "nice" images.


    I think that a Look/Think link could transmit the images that the Lookamancer sees directly into the mind(s) of one or more people. So you could see what the Lookamancer sees. Like looking through a Doombat. I do not think anything approaching the table is possible, in terms of breadth, depth, precision, detail, or robustness/permanence.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 5:20 pm 
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    raphfrk wrote:
    However, uncroaking the volcano would have required considerable rock moving to "unplug" it, so it did require more than just pushing a rock off a cliff, though it would have had high gain.

    Quote:
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    Me too :).


    Not really. The beautiful (and horrifying) thing about geodynamics is that they could have done it with just a small amount of rock moving. The magma itself did most of the pushing, once Wanda understood which parts to move and Sizemore gave it a nudge.

    Fact is, volcano creation, though unpredictable, may be triggered by the smallest tremor. Just give the magma a weak spot to push through and it'll rise up at frightening speed. In this case, the volcano, the original conduit, was already there. "All" it took was for Sizemore to identify the weak spots and for Wanda to make the "heart", the main magma chamber, to "beat" (my guess is, cause a small tremor aided by Sizemore), and there you go, one eruption as ordered.

    My own specialty is related to thermodynamics, and volcanoes are kind of a hobby (they are closely related after all).

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:35 pm 
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    Kreistor wrote:
    Raph, they are right. There's no obvious reason for a Foolamancer to be needed for that particular link. Lookamancer provides observation (enhanced in the same way Sizemore's perception of the mountain is), and Thinkamancer provides communications allowing instantaneous prders to be sent to all units with fewer restrictions than normal Thinkagram.


    Umm...I'd always thought that he was the one making the holographic display?
    So your saying that you think the table it's self is magical and that it generates the holo display?
    If not how do you think the holo display is made?
    I guess the Thinkamancer could put the images into everyone's head and make them think that they are there...but she is being used to send orders to units on the field so I don't think that's the case....

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:56 pm 
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    Secret wrote:
    Umm...I'd always thought that [the foolamancer] was the one making the holographic display?


    That is the generally accepted view point.

    Quote:
    I guess the Thinkamancer could put the images into everyone's head and make them think that they are there...but she is being used to send orders to units on the field so I don't think that's the case....


    Also, it is unclear if the Thinkamancer can "connect" to more than two people at a time.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:28 pm 
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    Secret wrote:
    Umm...I'd always thought that he was the one making the holographic display?


    Can that effect only be achieved with Foolamancy? Couldn't a Dirtamancer create tiny little golems to do it? How about a Dollamancer? SIgnamancer can do it with words on the hexes.

    Quote:
    So your saying that you think the table it's self is magical and that it generates the holo display?


    No, but I suspect the triple-Eyemancer combo has more to do with a sense of synergy than a need for a Follamancer to provide that particular function. The overall effect of the holographic display does not seem to me to be overwhelmingly powerful: it's neat, but not on par with Lookamancer seeing across mutliple hexes simultaneously, or a THinkamancer Thinkagramming a lot of units at once throughout an entire Turn. Heck, the Lookamancer could do the job alone, with a few goblins carving figurines she could push around the table. That's how they did it in Britain during 1940.

    Quote:
    If not how do you think the holo display is made?


    Okay, yeah, the Foolamancer is likely doing that. I had forgotten that feature, remembering Parson's hands on figurines. But it doesn't change the fact he's not needed to provide that function: they could do it other ways without him. I like the Dirtamancer little golems, myself. That would be fun. When a unit gets croaked, you can reach over and splat the little mudman.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:37 pm 
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    well, you could circumvent the Lookamancer by having the Thinkamancer in contact with a web of scouts, but that's not the point

    it's badass and the three are needed to make it work the way it does

    sure, you could just use sand tables or do whatever the RCC had... but tiny golems (can they exist?) or dolls aren't as accurate, flexible, or robust as a veil. It's a step down. Workable, yes, but undesirable given the alternative.

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     Post Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:18 am 
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    The alternative ties up a valuable (master class!) Foolamancer. A step down in graphics quality is worth such a powerful unit, methinks. In fact, do you really need the display to be magically generated at all? Is it for some reason impossible to just use figurines?

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     Post Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:15 am 
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    I think we're missing something here. Sure it's a sacrifice of three casters, but even Wanda agreed that ordering the link was "the shrewdest thing she'd ever known Stanley to do" (Book I, p. 47). Then she goes on to say that the Eyemancers gave GK unmatched communications and intelligence. This, coming from Wanda, is quite a statement.

    And there's that other thing, GK's caster link was made up of one representative of each Eyemancy discipline, one related to each Magical Axis. That's also the only link that can be formed with all three caster belonging to all the disciplines within a class, and I get the feeling this has to mean something. It's the complete set, so to speak. Thinking class-wise, this link would then be capable of the most potent Eyemancy effects achievable. Not just keeping the table, all Eyemancy, period.

    So what I'm thinking is, yes, Lookamancers are rare. But having the full Eyemancy caster set? That might have been unique.

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     Post Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:10 am 
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    Maldeus wrote:
    A step down in graphics quality is worth such a powerful unit, methinks. In fact, do you really need the display to be magically generated at all? Is it for some reason impossible to just use figurines?


    Kreistor's idea about using dirtamancy for the table is thinking outside the box. Ofc, Sizemore is also a master class caster, and an advisor of Parson. Jack is just a caster (though we haven't seen his real personality yet.)

    Assuming that a link can cast all the standard spells for their component casters, the ideal would be that you use a long-range caster to also produce the table images.

    Thinkamancy and Lookamancy are long ranged. Dirtamancy and Foolamancy seem to be short ranged.

    I think if there was only 1 person looking at the table, then a Thinkamancer and a Lookamancer would be sufficient, even if the table images have to be dropped when commands are sent. In fact, you probably wouldn't even need a table. Charlie is able to create full VR, but that is likely due to the arkendish.

    We know very little about the other caster types.

    I wonder if a moneymancer could be used to create the table. It could pop the little figurines in the appropriate hexes. This would mean that the table would require schmuckers to operate, but figurines should be reasonably cheap. Also, a moneymancer may have a de-pop with refund option (where you get 80% of the money back).

    Moneymancy seems like an administration type caster, so would probably be in the capital anyway.

    Btw, I wonder if in future books unusual link-ups will be significant. It was clearly the climax of book 1, but using it again as a key battle changing event would represent power inflation.

    Ofc, perhaps Parson will start doing research into finding other powerful combination, rather than just a good but desperate last minute idea. It looks like he plans to do some experiments with bricks at least. His power in book 2 might not be based on powerful magic at all.

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     Post Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:15 pm 
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    Uhm... I think I just got a compliment. Nah, impossible. (Thanks, Raph. I appreciate it. Anyone interested in further spec on Links will find a Fanon wiki page for exactly that purpose. Cruise there through the Fusion Magic page.)

    BTW, Jack isn't just a caster. Jillian describes him as a genius with distractions. That's how he got Stanley out of the Trap, in the end. He had to distract everyone into thinking the dwagon had died and Stanley was elsewhere, or he couldn't have made the change to bat-shape work.

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